How to disable limbs?

[Christougher]

I was building a character and had the idea for a power that would be used to disable an opponent's limbs, probably one at a time. 

 

How would herodom assembled build such an attack?  How would it play out?  I'll post some of my thoughts after a bit.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well it depends on the campaign.  In one which has the hit locations and disabling/impairing wounds options enabled its pretty straight forward.  Hit a location, deal enough damage to disable it.

 

In a campaign without these options its a bit more challenging, because then you have to simulate what disabling a limb would cause.  Especially the way Hero defines "limbs" because head is one in the rules.

 

It is built into 6th (and 5th) edition that you have an origin point for your power: cyclops' eyes, Spiderman's wrists for his webs, etc.  This helps in a special effect way to define how someone can restrain your powers.  If Spidey has his webshooters behind his back, he cannot use them to send a line forward.  So that's one point of attack, a way to think of how to build the power.

 

Another point is that you can "grab" limbs and prevent them from being used in every sort of Hero game, which gives us another point of attack to deal with this idea.

 

Also, entangle can prevent use of foci, thus binding some ability to access powers, another clue.

 

And finally, drain can prevent someone from using a power by reducing that power and calling it "disable".

 

Oh, and transform can do nearly anything, of course.

 

So between all these we can figure up a suite of different powers based on various abilities.  Using entangle on one specific limb will make it not do anything until it can be broken free (probably bought as a CON-based one).  Telekinesis can grab and hold a limb.  Drain can lower the power of that limb although its spendy to cover every power someone might have with that limb.

[Ninja-Bear]

Like Christopher Taylor said there are specific rules to use. Or, you could have and Entangle with a limitation like only one limb at a time.

[Tech]

One of our players wanted that for a heroine so we used the following:
 

3d6, 3 Def Entangle, Use Con to break free, Reliable, only on 1 limb

Putting on a time restriction of how long it'll last is also a good idea (such as, 'Entangle only lasts 1 hour')

[Christougher]

16 minutes ago, Tech said:

One of our players wanted that for a heroine so we used the following:
 

3d6, 3 Def Entangle, Use Con to break free, Reliable, only on 1 limb

Putting on a time restriction of how long it'll last is also a good idea (such as, 'Entangle only lasts 1 hour')

 

What exactly is Reliable, and where did it come from?  

 

[Duke Bushido]

Is this not covered by Grab?  Or maybe a skill Wrestling?

 

Seriously, though;  wasnt there discussion some,time back about using Grab for this?

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Grab is not really disabling the limb, it is restraining it.  Once you break the grab the limb regains the functionality.  Disabling is a lasting effect.

If the disabling rules are not being used and you want to disable a limb for a period of time a transformation would work.   It will probably need to be a major transformation and will probably be fairly expensive.  If the disabling is temporary a limitation to allow it to recover quicker would be appropriate and reduce the cost.

 

The problem with doing it as a entangle or grab is that means you can break out of it.  It also means that things like martial escape would make it easier to break out.  It does not seem right that knowing how to slip out of a hold will make you recover the use of your arm.  

 

If the game is using the disabling rules there are marital arts maneuvers that can do this. 
 

[unclevlad]

HSMA includes the maneuver element Disable.  You get to trade:  no targeting penalty, but the damage is only to disable that limb.  Joint Break is a fairly common maneuver;  it's based on a grab.  Hapkido, Jujutsu and some others have a breaking throw...disable a limb and the target falls.  The maneuver element description uses a disabling strike as the exemplar...HSMA page 95.

[Duke Bushido]

Quite right-I was seeing "disabled' and reading "restrained."

 

Sorry about that.

 

I am a bit pressed for time, but I will go so far as to say that yes; T-form will do it, but it is not the most practical method, since for the same cost and mechanics (accrue BODY), you can render them unconscious / dead, taking all of their appendages out of play.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Entangle can represent disabled, not like spidey's webs but a chemical injection that cripples it.

[Tech]

13 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Entangle can represent disabled, not like spidey's webs but a chemical injection that cripples it.

The depends on what you're trying to do; disable for a long time or a short time. An Entangle requiring Con to break out works for a temp disable, in our gameplay.

[Chris Goodwin]

I used Drain STR (arms) or Drain Running (legs), both going against normal PD and recovering per month.  

 

(The character was called Greenstick...)

 

[Cloppy Clip]

Seconding a request for more info about this Reliable modifier..

 

Going back to the original question, though, I think that without the rules for hit locations and such in the game I'd go with either the Entangle or the Drain option, depending on what felt more appropriate. Entangle physically restrains its target, which matches the fiction of an arm or leg that can't be used, but the hit location rules give out penalties for impaired or disabled limbs, so Drain would better match the mechanical side.

 

This did get me thinking, though: some of the hit locations have random effects when disabled, where one of a few options takes a penalty. With Drains and other adjustment powers you can buy a power to split the effect between different game elements (on page 137 the example of Drain STR and CON 4d6 (half to each) is given), but the division is fixed when you buy the power. Would it be terribly wrong to buy it as a random choice, so you would have, say, Drain STR or CON 4d6 and then, each time you used the power, you would roll to determine which characteristic was drained?

[Tech]

Reliable is/was a +0 Advantage that allowed you to always do average damage (assuming my memory is correct). A 10d6 Blast, Reliable, always did 35 Stun, 10 Body.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Tech said:

Reliable is/was a +0 Advantage that allowed you to always do average damage (assuming my memory is correct). A 10d6 Blast, Reliable, always did 35 Stun, 10 Body.

Do you mean Standard Effect? That’s what’s it called. 😁

[dougmacd]

Just now, Ninja-Bear said:

Do you mean Standard Effect? That’s what’s it called. 😁

 

And it assumes each die rolls a three. (So slightly below average.)

 

 

Doug

Ninja-Bear ninja'd my response. At least I got to include some of my message-in-progress.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

And it assumes each die rolls a three. (So slightly below average.)

 

Yeah that has always bothered me, since the rules specifically state that you round in the favor of the player.   

 

But not in this case, and even worse Standard Effect rounds down even more with half dice, so with Hero Designer, for example it assumes 1 ½d6 = 4 stun and 2 body (or just 4 points of effect).  According to the base rule, it should be 4 for each d6 and 6 for 1½d6.  Now I'm willing to compromise here, and go with 3 for 1d6 and 5 for 1½. But either way its not great.

[Tech]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Do you mean Standard Effect? That’s what’s it called. 😁

 

Thank you! No wonder I confused people. But, on my behalf, I do have to say it does make the attack reliable.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Tech said:

 

Thank you! No wonder I confused people. But, on my behalf, I do have to say it does make the attack reliable.

Yeah, its a suitable name.

[steriaca]

Well, one can do this via Transformation (Usable Limb to Unusable Limb, AVLD [resistant PD instead of Power Defense]), No Range. Once all the Transformation "damage" is healed the limb struck starts to work again. You could also make it a long term transformation by defining the healing as "under medical attention".

 

But it would be better using the rules in Hero System Martial Arts.  This is nothing new, as I believe this rule was in Ninja Hero 1ed and The Ultimate Martial Artist. 

[dmjalund]

any rules/guidelines for Transform vs hit-locations?

[LoneWolf]

If the campaign is using hit location you probably don’t need to use transformation.  If you do it will be up to the GM.  But unless you are taking the penalty for a called shot you are not going to get any benefit from hit locations.  There are some powers that are built with the special effect of targeting a particular body part, usually it is considered part of the special effect and get neither a penalty or a bonus for location.  One thing to keep in mind is that actually using hit locations is probably going to make the power a lot weaker.  If hit locations are in effect I would simply use the  body multiplier for the location.  Sense limbs usually reduce the body this would make it harder to disable a limb.  

[steriaca]

Hit location with Transform only sees what is hit, and doesn't multiply the effect. Disabling an arm is no different with this power than disabling a leg or disabling a chest or head.

 

Generally use common sense. Disabling an arm makes the arm useless for attacking or grabbing. Disabling a leg makes the leg useless for attacking or moving. Disabling the chest means you have to catch your breath and can't use it for any attack which basically pushes your chest into things (it hurts too much to even touch things with it). A disabled head means you are "stunned" (in that you have to pause to clear the cobwebs out), and is useless to headbut people. 

[unclevlad]

22 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah that has always bothered me, since the rules specifically state that you round in the favor of the player.   

 

But not in this case, and even worse Standard Effect rounds down even more with half dice, so with Hero Designer, for example it assumes 1 ½d6 = 4 stun and 2 body (or just 4 points of effect).  According to the base rule, it should be 4 for each d6 and 6 for 1½d6.  Now I'm willing to compromise here, and go with 3 for 1d6 and 5 for 1½. But either way its not great.

 

Nope, it say "you roll average", period.  On the total number of dice, not on each die separately.  

 

You can't say it's 4 points per die, because that'd mean your 10d6 would be 40 STUN.  That's something for nothing.  3 points per die...if the STUN is the consideration, it's a penalty, but if it's the BODY...you *know* you'll get 10 BODY, which can be big.  Think a 5 BODY, 5 DEF Entangle...you're out.  The simple answer here:  take the average of the entire power, not each little component.  An advantage or limitation isn't priced per die, it's priced on the total cost of all dice, unless you really wanna get elaborate with naked advantages or differential modifiers.  Beneficial rounding is OK for the odd die....9 dice average is 31.5, calling it 32 is fine.

 

Now, part of the messiness here is, there's 2 separate counting methods used, and standard effect has to address both, when it comes to fractional dice.  There's counting STUN, and counting BODY.  STUN counts the dice altogether...but BODY treats each die separately.  1/2 die sits on the cusp...STUN is 1-3, BODY is 50%.  So how do you round?  What I'd say:  1/2 d6 on a Blast or Flash is 3 points, not 2.  You get the 1/2 die from STR at 3 points over the last full die, not 2.  You're slightly over on base cost, so round in the player's favor for that reason.  So, standard effect for 8 1/2 d6 normal would be 30 STUN (8x3.5 = 28, +2 for the half die) and 9 BODY. 

 

That's the basic 5 points per DC, and the basic power structure.  Killing attacks...the problem is that now there's 2 separate notional scales.  #1:  dice scale.  What is 1/2 die killing, in terms of points?  #2:  the DC scale, where each die is split into 3 parts.  The rules are weak here, IMO.  1/2 d6 killing should be 8 points...no, NOT 7.  Same reasoning why 1/2d6 normal is 3, not 2.  You have to build UP, as you do with normal damage.  It works...it's just a lot messier, but that's because the rules took a simplifying approach when considering DCs, and never really went through all the rigamarole to support a unified system of DC/damage translations.

 

(Side note:  in base cost, no, the beneficial rounding rule DOES NOT apply.  There are many powers that are 3 points cost for 2 points effect.  You don't get 1 point of effect for 1 point.  You pay 3, period, whether you take the full value allowed or not.  Same with END and STUN...they're bought in increments.)

 

By and large, tho, if you start from the notion of "you roll average"...these considerations become minor rounding issues in most cases, and if there's some real abuse, it's probably from some other factor.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

You can't say it's 4 points per die, because that'd mean your 10d6 would be 40 STUN.  That's something for nothing.

 

I mean, there's probably no good solution but either you get too many points, or you get too few, because they're rounding.  Either the GM is abusing the rules to limit PC effect, or the PCs are abusing the rules to get an advantage.

 

But ½d6 should be 2 points because the odds are tilted in that direction, more likely than 1.  Its not 1.5 on half die, its 1.75.