Need help in adjudicating....

[Mr. R]

OK, I am not having this problem right now, but JIC!

 

I made a NPC, assassin type with Deadly Blow +2d6 KA.  Questions:

 

Does this apply to ranged attacks like bow or slings?

 

If I have magic weapon that is 0 End and Armor Piercing do I prorate the Damage?  How Much?  Do I count both the 0 End and AP (therefore making it + 1d6)?  (To me that is making having a magic weapon MUCH less useful as a normal weapon will add the 2d6 )

 

Any other suggestions!

[Ternaugh]

1. Deadly Blow can apply to ranged weapons, if it is defined that way in the special circumstances under which it functions.

 

2. You would use the instructions in 6e2 99 to determine how many DC are needed for each die of effect on an attack with Advantages. You only have to consider Advantages that directly affect how damage is taken. In your example of the magic bow, you'd count the AP, but not the 0 END. That would give an effective cost of 6.25 points per DC added, meaning you could add a d6+1 to the damage (more or less; I'll leave the actual math to you). 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The easy way with an item that grants an advantage is to just presume (or as a GM to build it) so that it  assumes strength added to it.  In other words, you buy the armor piercing with a naked advantage that covers STR and maneuvers added to it up to at least a certain point (like double the damage).  That way you do not have to do complicated math or crunch numbers, checking charts, etc.  Does it kind of break the game?  It can but as a GM you have to be really careful with what kind of things you let people have.

 

In a superheroic game, armor piercing is pretty effective, but limited, because the targets usually have a lot of other defenses and options.  In a heroic game, armor piercing is extremely powerful.  Partly you learn that from experience, which is why the GM should usually be the most experienced player.

 

But its also why I do not allow stuff like Deadly Blow in my game.

[Mr. R]

22 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

But its also why I do not allow stuff like Deadly Blow in my game.

Call me curious, but why not.  I can see in a superhero game (just up the damage) but in a heroic?

 

I have never GM at the heroic level, so hint and such will really be useful!

[Hugh Neilson]

I find GMs who dislike deadly blow are targeting a lower-powered game.  Adding 2d6 KA (30 AP) is a substantial damage addition to normal weapons - more than doubling.

 

For adding damage, you can either use the charts in the back of 6e V2, or math it out.  +2d6 is really +30 AP.  Divide by 1.25 (AP is +1/4 in 6e) and work out what the base weapon would be.  Assume it is a 1dd+1 AP KA magic sword - that's 20 points for just the KA +24 = 44, so you can be generous and round up to 3d6, or by-the-book and he gets 2 1/2d6. 

[Duke Bushido]

Not gonna lie:

 

I dont sweat it.

 

If we decides that your Deadly Blow ability was worth Xd6 RKA (which is how I build such a thing: "+2D6 RKA," as an example)   then that's what it is.  So you have 0 END on your bow; if it is not built into your Deadly Blow, then those Xd6 still cost END,  if your bow has other advantages or limitations, then so does your Deadly Blow.

 

Odds are that I will get comments telling me how I am letting 2.7 AP slide by for "free," or over-charging someone 3 AP when they swtich to a different bow or something, but the long and short of it is "I do not care."  I so not care because I have never once seen a game wrecked by letting it slide, and I have never seen one improved in any way by stopping to figure it out precisely; I have most certainly never seen a game imoroved comensurate to the sropping and re-mathing with every weapon switch, not even once.

 

Now the question may come up about playtesting these free-wheeling, devil-may-care, dangerously-sloppy judgements, but we have been playing "Fantasy HERO" via Champions rules since before there was a Fantasy HERO, and....

 

Absolutely nothing has popped up to remotely suggest that any of the above was even close to worth doing.

 

As an additional plus, I have found that overall, Players much prefer knowing "oh; I get +xD6 with this kind of weapon!" and never have to put more effort into it than that.

 

Works for them; works for me; saves stopping the game; savws me front-loading lengthy lists in case one-tenth of these situations actually comes up.  

 

 

Go ahead: fire away.  Let's hear how awful this is.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

It seems like "how awful it is" would depend on how common deadly blow-type constructs are and how common weapons with relevant advantages are.  Applying +2d6 Deadly Blow to my Magic Sword of Light that is AVAD Mental Defense, Does BOD, Area Effect Selective, Accurare would be pretty generous, but I doubt many, if any, games feature a Magic Sword of Light that is AVAD Mental Defense, Does BOD, Area Effect Selective.  If one does, I suspect other players and NPCs also get to slap  Deadly Blow on equally egregious builds, so everyone is getting the same discounted-cost Deadly Blow.

[Duke Bushido]

 

Can Any of you 6e afficianodos tell me if 6e still allows Skill Levels to convert to additional damage?

 

Tangential, I know, but it is q big part of many of my Heroic level games.

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

51 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Can Any of you 6e afficianodos tell me if 6e still allows Skill Levels to convert to additional damage?

 

Tangential, I know, but it is q big part of many of my Heroic level games.

 

 

 

That is how Deadly Blow is built.

[Duke Bushido]

Right; forgive the lack of clarity:

 

I meant as far as allocsting Skill Levels:  use them for OCV once, then move them to damage later, then split them in some way between the two, etc.

 

Sorry for the shorthand.

 

It is maddening that I get comments about going overboard with my posts, yet when I don't, there is invariably something critical to the post that gets left out.  :😆:

 

 

[rravenwood]

Yup, Combat Skill Levels in 6E still allow them to be allocated to increase damage as well as OCV/DCV.

[Christopher R Taylor]

conceptually I dislike Deadly Blow, its just "dude I do more damage!"  Its meta rather than a believable game mechanic.

[Ternaugh]

I'm not a fan of Deadly Blow either, and most of my players have been around Hero enough to figure out that having the flexibility to swing levels into DCV, OCV, or damage is much better anyway.

 

[DentArthurDent]

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Can Any of you 6e afficianodos tell me if 6e still allows Skill Levels to convert to additional damage?

 

6e CSLs (Combat Skill Levels)

 

There are three ways to use CSLs:

one CSL can be +1 OCV with one type of attack (more types for more points)

one CSL can be +1 DCV against the same type of attack (with options about dodging, or not dodging, ranged attacks)

two CSLs can be +1 DC

 

There are CSLs available for 2,3,5,8, and 10 points

 

Changing the way a CSL is used is a 0 phase action, but only once per Phase.

 

All of this comes with the usual “Don’t try (too hard) to abuse a system that’s made to make imagination fun.”

[Duke Bushido]

Ah;

 

So no changes there, then.

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

For some reason, Deadly Blow seems to inspire accusations of "mechanic without an effect".  The character can get a similar effect by purchasing skill levels and always using them to enhance damage.  Some versions of Deadly Blow are simply that deadly accurate skill.

 

It can still be overpowered, but so can a similar investment in PSLs to reduce hit location penalties for head shots, or the aforementioned skill levels.

[Duke Bushido]

For what it's worth, as "Deadly,Blow," it only comes,up (for me) with the thirty-and-under crowd who learned RPGs through DnD.

 

Though a similar thing comes up with the forty-and-under crowd who learned fantasy through beat-em-up style video games, and they all have a wierd similarity of execution:  "I jump into the air and-"

 

Apparently it is pretty common in such games that you hit the smite button to attack, but if you jump up and hit the smite button, you do some sort of super-smite.

 

If they move on to side-scrolling platformers, I expect I will get requests for double jumps, too.

 

When there are no more role playing games, it will mostly be because humans are visually-oriented, and videogames grab more people more easily by their favorite sensory inputs.

 

 

[Trencher]

For game balance I would say deadly blow is hand killing attack for hand to hand only and deadly shot is ranged killing attack for ranged attack only. 

It costs more but I am fine with that as damage is cheap in hero system any way. 

[Mr. R]

54 minutes ago, Trencher said:

For game balance I would say deadly blow is hand killing attack for hand to hand only and deadly shot is ranged killing attack for ranged attack only. 

It costs more but I am fine with that as damage is cheap in hero system any way. 

Hmmm I like that!

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

For what it's worth, as "Deadly Blow," it only comes, up (for me) with the thirty-and-under crowd who learned RPGs through DnD.

 

Yeah, that's what it is, its a carryover "feat" from D&D to appeal to players from there and I don't think it really fits Fantasy Hero at all.

[Ninja-Bear]

Let me see for the distractors of Deadly Blow, (Which is the classic Thief Back Stab ability). You don’t have a problem Haymaker doing more damage but have a problem with Deadly Blow? Talk about Meta gaming! Or I can buy up more damage to with my punches -matter the method or edition but Deadly Blow is a problem? Shaking head.

[Duke Bushido]

15 hours ago, Trencher said:

deadly blow is hand killing attack for hand to hand only and deadly shot is ranged killing attack for ranged attack

 

 

Yep.  That's what I do.  Has nothing to do with game balance, though: it is just faster, easier, requires zero preload, and absolutely no "stop the game for a minute; I need to do some math."

 

It is easier on the players as well: all they have to remember is "I can do +X with this kind of weapon."

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

You don’t have a problem Haymaker doing more damage but have a problem with Deadly Blow?

 

Nope, because haymaker has huge drawbacks and fits genre fiction.  Deadly Blow is just "I do more damage just cuz lol"  Haymaker is "I swing as hard as I can from as far back as I can, and abandon all pretense of defense" which is extremely well represented in real life and fiction.  Backstab requires ambush and positioning, Deadly Blow just... works.

[Duke Bushido]

Look, Deadly Blow isnt my,thing, either, but playing a game is something of a give-and-take.  I have an on-again, off-again again fantasy group that likes it for whatever reason; I dont care for it, but we worked out a thing based on how they saw it working (almost all of: "I jump up in the air and bring my weapon crashing down in a mighty arc--")

 

Okay, fine.  I can work with that.  How about +1 die, full-phase, x2 END, based on what your description.  A little back-and-forth, and,they have something they like, and I have something that doesn't warp the game (the x2 END and full-phase resteictions stop them from using it with every swing).

 

Now  the archers feel left out.  How about +1drka, x2 END, full-phase, with a burn out and you pay END for your full STR?  (They had decided the move worked by severely over-drawing their bows).

 

A little back and forth, and we drop x2 END (still have to use full STR) and add a burn out (bow cracks or string snaps) on the weapon when this is used.

 

And again, we end up with somerhing agreeable to everyone (one archer did not want extra damage, so his "amazing ability" is +4 Of what is now called PSLs, to demonstrate his ability to make amazing long ranged shots.

 

Oh- before shooting that down as obnoxious, remember I play 2e, where range penalties occur much sooner, and accrue quickly. 

 

As far as what does or does not belong in a fantasy game...

 

I think it is fair to say that in the same way that Hugh is often considered by many of us to be the most objective person on these boards, I may well be one of the most opinionated.    even knowing that, though, I won't say what does or doesn't belong in a particular genre.  I may not like it in my game, which is perfectly understandable, I think.  I mean, evryone hates elves, right?

 

no?

 

just me?

 

well, I can say that they dont belong in fantasy- and especially don't belong in science fiction (looking at you, Darrians of Traveller), but just because _I_ hated it from start to finish, I have to accept that Lord od the Rings is _the_ example of source material for mosr fantasy fans.

 

there are still no eleves in my games.  Or in Talislanta, so there is at least one other guy agrees with me.

 

as another example, I absolutely positively _detest_ combat-oriented magic.  It's just so...  Tawdry to me: "I can bend the fabric of reality to my will; I know the secrets of reshaping the universe to my liking.  It is within my grasp to mould a world where all are fed, and none have want of anything. Today, though, I just want to set this one guy on fire."

 

_I_ don"t like it in Fantasy HERO, but at the end of the day, I have go admit that this is not one, but a major trope of the genre: spendinf a life of of studious seclusion so that I can walk through a damp and dingy stone maze setting my opponents on fire and taking their stuff.

 

 

[Grailknight]

16 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Let me see for the distractors of Deadly Blow, (Which is the classic Thief Back Stab ability). You don’t have a problem Haymaker doing more damage but have a problem with Deadly Blow? Talk about Meta gaming! Or I can buy up more damage to with my punches -matter the method or edition but Deadly Blow is a problem? Shaking head.

 

I wouldn't have many problems with Deadly Blow except for the fact that it adds to the Attack's base damage before other modifiers and doubling.

 

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Yep.  That's what I do.  Has nothing to do with game balance, though: it is just faster, easier, requires zero preload, and absolutely no "stop the game for a minute; I need to do some math."

 

It is easier on the players as well: all they have to remember is "I can do +X with this kind of weapon."

 

 

 

As I said, if it worked this way, I'd be cool with it, but it doesn't. It instead says that goes from base to base +X DC's, gets all the Advantages for free and can be doubled from the new b