AOE Strength

[mattingly]

Question...

 

If a hero can stop time for a few seconds (like with the stopwatch from The Girl, the Gold Watch, and Everything), and had...

• Selective AOE Radius on Strength...

...defined as having ten seconds to walk around, hit people, grab things, etc.

 

Would you allow that AOE Strength to be used differently vs each target?

So that the hero could:

• Grab someone
• Punch someone
• Push someone down

 

 

If not, how would you build such a thing?

 

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

I would be more inclined to autofire than area of effect.  The key point it is missing is that noone else will miss an action - the special effect would be that EVERYONE and EVERYTHING else in the world did nothing and noticed no disconnect except the results of the action. 

 

The other problem would be that hitting someone who was time-stopped should be much easier than in normal combat.  As would grabbing and pushing people over.  You might want to live with that because, in game, as GM I would want it to be harder to grab, punch and trip than to punch, punch, punch.  As such I would add up all the penalties from the various manouevres and apply them all to all the attacks (as well as the usual penalties for autofiring multiple targets).

 

Doc

[Sketchpad]

54 minutes ago, mattingly said:

If not, how would you build such a thing?

 

Isn't this basically the Speed Zone abilities as seen in The Ultimate Speedster (p. 251) for 5th ed? 

[Grailknight]

I would skip the time stop aspect of this entirely.

 

Make it Selective AOE Telekinesis (Define the SFX as you need) and require a Telekinesis Skill roll to pull off the differing effects.

[greypaladin_01]

Grailknight's method is probably the closest to RAW from what I can tell.   Outside of 1 Hex AoE / No Range for Big Hand smashing, ranged STR attacks usually fall into the realm of TK.   Since it is basically STR w/ Range Advantage anyway.

[mattingly]

17 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

The other problem would be that hitting someone who was time-stopped should be much easier than in normal combat.  As would grabbing and pushing people over.  You might want to live with that because, in game, as GM I would want it to be harder to grab, punch and trip than to punch, punch, punch.  As such I would add up all the penalties from the various manouevres and apply them all to all the attacks (as well as the usual penalties for autofiring multiple targets).

 

I was considering AOE Selective Radius and AOE 1 Hex. If I go the Autofire route, I'll add in Concentrated Sprayfire.

 

 

17 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

Isn't this basically the Speed Zone abilities as seen in The Ultimate Speedster (p. 251) for 5th ed? 

 

Ah! Good call. I looked through the Time Powers section, which wasn't quite what I was after.

 

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

I think the big issue RAW about AoE STR and TK is that, if I recall properly, if you have 50STR then it is 50 STR over the whole area.

 

That means, if there are 5 people in the area you can apply 10 STR per person, or a 2D6 punch.

 

I was also going to suggest an invisible duplication...you suddenly have three or four of you for a very short time to do a variety of actions.  Almost making duplication an instant power, invisible because the actions all take place in the "dead time".

Edited July 8, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[Grailknight]

You could also go with Extra Limbs and Stretching with IPE on both and Does Not Cross Intervening Space on the latter. This gets into OCV issues rather quickly though. You'll need levels.

[Duke Bushido]

It is a matter of what workaround does "more or less" what you expect to be able to do under the circumstances.  Remember that what you are ultimately looking for is a cheaper way to model SPD+30.

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Remember that what you are ultimately looking for is a cheaper way to model SPD+30.

 

The very reason I thought of Duplication.  It gives additional actions, all of which are like you doing it.

[Ninja-Bear]

@mattingly, is what you’re describing really a Multi-Attack? 

[Chris Goodwin]

On 7/8/2023 at 4:38 AM, Doc Democracy said:

I think the big issue RAW about AoE STR and TK is that, if I recall properly, if you have 50STR then it is 50 STR over the whole area.

 

That means, if there are 5 people in the area you can apply 10 STR per person, or a 2D6 punch.

 

This isn't how any other power with AOE works, though.  If you have a 10d6 Blast with AOE, every target in the area takes 10d6.

[Doc Democracy]

47 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

This isn't how any other power with AOE works, though.  If you have a 10d6 Blast with AOE, every target in the area takes 10d6.

 

True, but @mattingly was talking about multiple uses of STR, so, if you want to stick to RAW, then this is an issue.

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

This isn't how any other power with AOE works, though.  If you have a 10d6 Blast with AOE, every target in the area takes 10d6.

 

Not if the AoE is bought with Selective.  Then the attacker gets to pick the targets inside the AoE, and there's a separate roll to hit each one.

[dmjalund]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Not if the AoE is bought with Selective.  Then the attacker gets to pick the targets inside the AoE, and there's a separate roll to hit each one.

true, but not relevant to the argument

[Chris Goodwin]

18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Not if the AoE is bought with Selective.  Then the attacker gets to pick the targets inside the AoE, and there's a separate roll to hit each one.

 

And the ones that are hit take the full damage/effect of the power.

[Doc Democracy]

14 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

And the ones that are hit take the full damage/effect of the power.

 

Are you saying that I am wrong?  It wouldnt be the first time but I am sure it has been true (or accepted as such) in lots of other threads.  I will see if I can find anything definitive.

 

I do have something definitive that goes against the wishes of the OP though - if you have AoE STR or TK, then all targets must be affected in the same way, that is, all grabbed, all hit, all pushed etc. 

 

[Doc Democracy]

22 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

And the ones that are hit take the full damage/effect of the power.

 

turns out we are both right but you are more right (I think).

 

If you have AoE TK at 60STR, and want to scoop up sand, then the amount of sand is 100 tonnes, regardless of the area involved, not 100 tonnes per 1m radius etc.  Quite explicit.

 

If you are punching or grabbing, then "full telekinetic STR applies to each target".

 

It feels a bit inconsistent, if the targets are all 100 tonnes, could you lift them all?

[Ninja-Bear]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:39 PM, unclevlad said:

 

Not if the AoE is bought with Selective.  Then the attacker gets to pick the targets inside the AoE, and there's a separate roll to hit each one.

I believe that Mattingly wanted to he able to push one, slap another and punch a third at the same time using AoE STR. Selective wouldn’t handle that.

[unclevlad]

Nope, that's true, but people have brought up various rules points, and much of this thread's been...a bit disjointed anyway.

 

In RAW?  Time Stop IMO simply cannot be done;  it's in direct opposition to the combat structure.  Your only real approach, that I can see, is Multiple Attack...with the massive penalty involved.

 

Oh...take that back.  Want to attack in a "Time Stop"?  Buy SPD 36, Instant, going off on the segment AFTER activation.  You get 3 fresh actions.  Something like that, I might buy as something like a classic time stop.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'd probably go with Speed Zone (EDM) then, and buy Transdimensional on the STR, which would -- strictly by mechanics -- have the desired effect.  Whether it would fall into a given points budget is another story.

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

 

Oh...take that back.  Want to attack in a "Time Stop"?  Buy SPD 36, Instant, going off on the segment AFTER activation.  You get 3 fresh actions.  

 

 

Pretty much exactly that.  I used to wax on about it when this topic cane up, but I dont anymore; these threads are almost always "wht' s the cheapest way I can simulate SPD: 60" or such as that.

 

The problem is that the thing being sought- the ability to do lots od things while slower characters cannot-  is explicity and exclusively the domain and function of the one truly unique thing that keeps me coming back to HERO time after time: the Speed Chart,

 

In twenty phases, I can hit twenty bad guys, so I can simulate that with STR: AoE, if they are all tightly grouped and I want to hit them all the exact same way.

 

But I can also hit ten bad guys twice, or absolutely pummel one bad guy.  STR: AoE doesn't really buy me either of those abilities, so I add another slot for STR: Autofire.

 

But I can't use that against two opponents if they exceed my movement for this phase.  Guess we aren't doing ultra slots, because we need a sliding scale of sorts to increase my range at the expense of a few blows.

 

Of course, neither of these provides the options to do different things to different targets, or to take 60 full moves in a straight line, since I need to finish the phase within one phase' s worth of movement from where I started.

 

Honestly, Doc's Duplication suggestion is the best idea I have heard in years (different actions by different duplicates, etc), but it is still problematic with regards to movement-heavy actions, particularly getrinf the duplicates to where they need to be if it is more than one phase of movement to travel there.

 

It is entirely possible to buy any power or ability and justify that abikity usinf the SFX of "super speed."  However, the only way to truly buy the ability to have dozens of extra individual actions without restriction is to buy SPD (I will spare re-hashing the EDM rant); there is no good substitute.

 

And yes, I am well aware of both the cost and the complete skewing of the power balance this does in game, but there is a reason that speedaters of the "everyone is standing still while I explore the universe" level like the Flash are considered to be godlike in the source material: it is because they absolutely _are_, and letting one into your game is really going to wonk it up pretty good.

 

The thing is, I _love_ speedsters.  I am not a huge supers guy (public knowledge at this point, I think), but I have a soft spot for speedsters above all others (weird that I usually play bricks or power armor, though), and have had to set ground rules at my own table that essentially make the quintessential classic speedster off-limits:

 

Speedster can have the highest SPD, but only by 2; they can have the highest movement, but no more than "times X "[varies from campaign to campaign] combat movement of the party average, etc, etc.

 

They have to rely on Schtick like excessive NCM, higher DEX and skill levels, and a handful of "signature gimmicks" under the SFX of "super speed" and call it good.

 

And I completely understand that this is the point of this  thread:  does STR: AoE simulate a speedster ability?

 

And yes; it does.  Ultimately, it simulates _one_ or maybe two speedster abilities, with restrictions related to where you must be at the end of the maneuver, etc.

 

On my own experience, that and two other gimmicks is about as good as it gets without breaking the game.

 

I say if it works for you, then go for it. 

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

When you grab something, you have to have a limb to maintain the grab, so grabbing them is going to be a problem.  Aside from maintaining the grab all of this could easily be done with a blast instead of STR.  If all you want to do is to hit and damage all targets in an area simply buy that.   Use a blast and apply the area of effect selective.  When you attack something use the knockback rules to determine if they are knocked to the ground or thrown.   If you want to increase the chance of knocking the target down, take the advantage double knockback.    The special effect is you stop time and attack everyone in the area.  If the character is knocked back your character grabbed them and threw them, if they are knocked down, they could have been pushed down.  

 

 

Special effect is important but what is really important for building a power is to define what happens in game terms.   Looking at what the OP wants I see they want to be able to stop time and attack everyone in the area.   When you attack something, it takes damage and might be knocked back or down.  Allowing a character to decide on a case-by-case basis on what maneuver to do against dozens of opponents is going to be a huge time sink.  As a GM I would veto it on the basis that the power is going to be a major slowdown in combat.   This way I simply make the attack and roll damage.  If there are only a few opponents I might allow the character to roll the knockback on each individually, but if there are too many opponents one roll will be used.   No character should be allowed a power that is going to bog down the game and erode the enjoyment of the rest of the players. 

[Jason Reid]

On 7/13/2023 at 1:39 AM, LoneWolf said:

Allowing a character to decide on a case-by-case basis on what maneuver to do against dozens of opponents is going to be a huge time sink.  As a GM I would veto it on the basis that the power is going to be a major slowdown in combat.

Yeah, this is my take. One of my most important definitions of "broken character" is one who takes an outsized amount of play time in combat compared to the rest of the group.

 

From a player-vs-world perspective I see no issue with allowing some sort of "Variable Applications" advantage (maybe at +1/2 or +1) on top of Selective AoE TK. If AoE TK allows a player to hurl a bunch of agents into the air, I don't see a real "balance" issue in allowing the player to hurl one, trip a second, and disarm a third. But the last thing I want to do is play that out every round of a combat.