Mindblade

[Ermenegildo]

I'm looking for help with developing a power and choosing the right limitation.

 

The power is called "Mindblade" and allows users to create a weapon (melee or ranged) using its psionic power.

The weapon has the same characteristic as a standard weapon of the same type, a mace mindblade has the same properties as a mace and a mindblade lance has the same properties as a lance.

The mindblade could be disarmed or damaged as a normal weapon has weight.

 

My idea was to use the standard weapon template and change some of the limitations to reflect the new nature of the weapon.

Require strength and required hands to stay the way they are.

Focus and real weapons need work because of the fact that you can create your mindblade out of thin air every time you need ease the difficulties of having a real weapon with you.

While the adversary could still hinder your use of the mindblade by breaking it or disarming you, you can still create it at a later time.

 

Any suggestion?

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

Hi @Ermenegildo,

 

I think the first question is, how easy is it to create the Mindblade?  How long does it take, how much effort and how much resources?  All of that can make a difference.  At the minimum, the weapon becomes OIF rather than OAF, inaccessible because while it may be disarmed, it can be immediately recreated in the wielder's hand, requiring no effort or delay. 

 

Doc

[LoneWolf]

Not sure even an OIF will work because and inaccessible focus can be taken away out of combat.  Unless you can take the power away for long periods of time it should not have the focus limitation.  Can you use skill levels, talents and maneuvers for the specific weapon with the Mindblade?  If so, being able to disarmed can be considered part of the special effect and not be considered a limitation.  

 

If you can create any weapon, you will need a couple of advantages on it.  First is going to be variable special effect at the + ¼ level, this allows you to change the damage type.  The Second is going to be variable advantage at the +1 level (allowing for a +1/2 advantage).   This will allow you to add things like armor piercing, increased stun multiple, ranged.  You will also probably need to purchase some stretching if you want to create longer weapons.  You will not need much stretching, 2m should be more than enough.

 

If you can do both normal and killing damage you will have to purchase both a HTH attack and a HKA.  Being able to create any weapon is going to be pretty expensive.   It might be better to be able to create a small group of weapons instead.  
 

[Doc Democracy]

5 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Not sure even an OIF will work because and inaccessible focus can be taken away out of combat.

 

Granted, but I reckon that the question of how a character might lose access for extended periods of time, out of combat, might happen.

 

As usual, the response to a many of this kind of question is, tell me a bit more about how it works in game! 🙂

Edited November 10, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[Hugh Neilson]

Restrainable and Physical Manifestation are also options.

[Ermenegildo]

7 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Hi @Ermenegildo,

 

I think the first question is, how easy is it to create the Mindblade?  How long does it take, how much effort and how much resources?  All of that can make a difference.  At the minimum, the weapon becomes OIF rather than OAF, inaccessible because while it may be disarmed, it can be immediately recreated in the wielder's hand, requiring no effort or delay. 

 

Doc

For a complete novice creating the mindblade should take one phase, cost endurance (to create it and not to use it) and require a skill roll or an activation roll, for an experienced user, it should be a zero-phase action without an activation roll or endurance expedition.

 

A novice should be able to create a single weapon type while an expert should be able to create different types of weapons (I was thinking of using a multipower for this but maybe is not the best way).

 

An advanced user should be able to add other effects (I'll probably start by converting material from Pathfinder and then create something new) to the attack made with the mindblade (I was thinking of using a linked limitation).

 

Long-term removal of the mind blade should not be easy and should require the use of some kind of Suppress.

 

To summarize having a mindblade is better than having the weapon but is worse (but not much) than having a "naked" HKA.

A true weapon has OAF and real weapon for a -1 1/4  I think that a mindblade could have something like -1/2 or -1/4. I'm almost sure that this part of the limitations should not exceed the -3/4.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Ermenegildo

[DShomshak]

Restrainable was my first thought as well.

 

However, if the weapons created are *exactly* the same as the 'mundane' versions except for how they are created (psionic energy instead of a weaponsmith), perhaps the Power you're looking for is a Physical Transform: Weapon from Nothing. Expanded Results Group, to make any kind of weapon (I'd set that at +1/2 for any weapon, +1/4 for a limited selection). Limited Target Group (Only from Thin Air, -1/4), because you can't use the Transform to change ogther objects into weapons -- meaning you can't use the Transform to get rid of, say, an opponent's armor. Likely All-or-Nothing (-1/2) so a few dice are enough to make hand weapons but the character won't use it repeatedly to create Mind Trebuchets. Then whatever other Limitations you think are appropriate -- maybe Concentration and a Phase of Extra Time?

 

The "reversal condition" might be when the character no longer needs the weapon or the weapon is off his or her person for more than a Turn. No equipping armies with materialized weapons!

 

Dean Shomshak

Edited November 10, 2023 by DShomshak

[Christopher R Taylor]

From Hawk the Slayer?

[Ermenegildo]

10 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

From Hawk the Slayer?

No from D&D 3.0

 

The short-term goal was to create, quickly, a lot of "power" for a fantasy setting starting from a conversion of the D&D 3.5 and pathfinder material both in English and Italian.

 

The long-term goal was to create a low-tech mid-magic setting where the ruling dynasties had access to true magic(still lower than high-level D&D), the noble to mindblade and everyone to some kind of minor magic (low range mainly personal, small effect limited scope). Ideally with a mix of extremely detailed rules and narrative mechanics and the option for players to choose the level of detail of their character and the ability to support different levels of detail at the same table.

[GDShore]

It is an interesting concept. Another way to handle the disarm issue is to use charges, the psionic summoner can only summon a weapon "x" number of times in "y" amount of time. As for the different weapons to be summoned, use a "variable power pool", each slot is a different weapon. After the disarm there should be a time limit to it's existence, for instance if you summon a bow and arrows, the arrows have to exist long enough to reach, impact and damage the target. (ooooh what a unique murder weapon, no evidence of the weapon left behind , because after a time the arrow disappears into thin air)

[Doc Democracy]

14 hours ago, Ermenegildo said:

For a complete novice creating the mindblade should take one phase, cost endurance (to create it and not to use it) and require a skill roll or an activation roll, for an experienced user, it should be a zero-phase action without an activation roll or endurance expedition.

 

For me, looking simply at the game implications, a novice is creating a weapon that has all the limitations of a real weapon.  I would base the cost on whatever weapon is being summoned. I would do it this way because if, in combat you are deprived of a weapon, and you have another, you would probably be roughly as disadvantaged as the mind blade wielder. You would not change the cost of a weapon if a character had a bag on many things and just kept pulling weapons out of it in combat.

 

The experienced user simply removes the focus element.  He can no longer be disarmed or be deprived of the blade.  If the blade was restrained he would abandon it, move his hand, summon another and attack, no loss.

 

Ultimately the player gets an advantage because they have paid points for a weapon rather than something the character acquired through wealth, craft or theft.

[HeroGM]

I would go in and find out what the highest value of a normal damage and killing attack would do, use a multi power with those two slots. On the mp itself that it can only use the amount of damage the real weapon could along with physical manifestations and and lingering so it'd stay active for how ever many phases. Then toss on charges etc to fill out the requirements.

[unclevlad]

I go with Doc's last post.  Why complicate it?

 

Use the stats for whatever the weapon is.  Ditch Focus, keep Real Weapon.  Focus goes away because, as noted, it can't be disarmed.  Real Weapon stays, I believe, because that's the basis for the weight considerations.  If you don't have Real Weapon, don't you throw out the Min Weight, and therefore, the lower STR bonus to damage?

 

Since this is based on the Psionic Warrior's Psiblade from 3.0...I'd go further.  Skip real weapon.  Skip focus.  They're powers...period.  No weight.  Not breakable.  Not disarmable...which is also pointless, as Doc notes, if it can be recreated at a thought.

 

For the most part, I don't give a darn about whether it's a mace, hammer, or staff...altho the latter might have reach.  I ONLY care about

a)  normal or killing

b)  reach

c)  damage DCs, and possibly other effects.

 

The rest is just visual SFX.  So yeah...options to start with:
2 slot MP, one for normal, the other for killing.

3 slot MP, with the 3rd slot incorporating the reach weapon

Small VPP...you get a MAJOR limited powers bonus here (at least -1, for HAs and HKAs only).  This is looking ahead, to when you start adding the psiblade powers, which make things a llittle trickier.  The starting VPP might be pool size 20, control cost 10;  half phase to change powers (no reason to go to zero phase);  no skill roll to switch.  HAs, HKAs only is -1, so the control cost is 25 / 2 == 12 points.  As I say, this would only make sense if the plan is to allow a very versatile mindblade...AVAD, AVAD does body, AP, etc.  Otherwise, add slots to the MP. 

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

On 11/10/2023 at 10:01 PM, Ermenegildo said:

No from D&D 3.0

 

The short-term goal was to create, quickly, a lot of "power" for a fantasy setting starting from a conversion of the D&D 3.5 and pathfinder material both in English and Italian.

 

The long-term goal was to create a low-tech mid-magic setting where the ruling dynasties had access to true magic(still lower than high-level D&D), the noble to mindblade and everyone to some kind of minor magic (low range mainly personal, small effect limited scope). Ideally with a mix of extremely detailed rules and narrative mechanics and the option for players to choose the level of detail of their character and the ability to support different levels of detail at the same table.

Be careful when trying to convert from D&D to hero.  It seems like it should work, but for the most part it often ends up being very difficult.  The rules systems just don’t match and often what is a low level power in D&D is extremely expensive in Hero.  Just as often the reverse is also true.  Every time I have seen someone try this it ends up taking more time and effort than it would be to start from the ground up.  

 

Real weapon is not appropriate, it means the weapon can be broken and needs maintenance.    
 

[Doc Democracy]

I reckon I would allow real weapon for the basic mindblade.  It probably can be broken and while the maintenance might be different, may require something to keep it functioning.

 

It also means that, while it's manufacture is different, it is treated identically to any normal weapon.

[pawsplay]

It's not a Real Weapon, it's the farthest thing from it. It has whatever characteristics you assign it, can't really be lost, requires no maintenance, and can be instantly repaired by resummoning it. I don't think it's even Restrainable, since you can already add your Strength to it, meaning it inherits the requirement for movement already.

The 3e mindblade is just a multipower with two or three slots. It's just a standard KA, with RKA in the other slot, and Lockout (the weapon is thrown or disarmed). More advanced users have a third slot where it creates two weapons, with a smaller damage bonus. The weapon type is probably immaterial; if you think crushing versus slashing will make a difference, and you can do both, add Variable Special Effects to each power.

The inspiration is a reliable ability. If you want to add Requires a Skill Roll or something, go for it. To imitate a low level user who has to use a "move action" to manifest it, take Extra Time (Full Phase, only to activate the first time, -1/4).

[Gauntlet]

On 11/12/2023 at 9:32 AM, LoneWolf said:

Be careful when trying to convert from D&D to hero.  It seems like it should work, but for the most part it often ends up being very difficult.  The rules systems just don’t match and often what is a low level power in D&D is extremely expensive in Hero.  Just as often the reverse is also true.  Every time I have seen someone try this it ends up taking more time and effort than it would be to start from the ground up.  

 

Real weapon is not appropriate, it means the weapon can be broken and needs maintenance.    
 

 

Not so sure. You seemed to like my Against the Giants game which is D&D converted to Hero.

[m.mavnn]

On 11/11/2023 at 7:01 AM, Ermenegildo said:

The short-term goal was to create, quickly, a lot of "power" for a fantasy setting starting from a conversion of the D&D 3.5 and pathfinder material both in English and Italian.

 

Off topic, but where abouts in Italy? I'm in Viterbo.

 

On 11/11/2023 at 7:01 AM, Ermenegildo said:

The long-term goal was to create a low-tech mid-magic setting where the ruling dynasties had access to true magic(still lower than high-level D&D), the noble to mindblade and everyone to some kind of minor magic (low range mainly personal, small effect limited scope). Ideally with a mix of extremely detailed rules and narrative mechanics and the option for players to choose the level of detail of their character and the ability to support different levels of detail at the same table.

 

With that kind of set up I'd try and keep costs down while making mind blades feel a bit other worldly. How about just buying them as a small HKA with no limitations or bonuses at all? It's cheap to buy because there's no STR min to worry about (which it should be, because everyone else is just spending a bit of cash on their weapons, not points). And it feels 'different' because rather than having to have the object to use, you pay END to keep the weapon active.

 

Then if individual characters want to add armour piercing, reach, multipowers, etc, they can go to town on it but the basic power is really simple and clear.

[Gauntlet]

Though even when converting D&D to Fantasy Hero, you have to make sure that you utilize the advantage of FH and not just try to directly transfer it. When doing so look at the prospect of the dungeon and how it works before you translate it.

[Ermenegildo]

I do not like the idea of using Transform but in a sense, Transform is the best way to replicate my idea of how this ability should work.

The power is not the weapon by itself it is the ability to create the weapon. This way is easy to differentiate between different levels of proficiency in the ability to create the weapon by adding different kinds of limitations/advantages to the power that creates the weapon. Adding the limitation to the weapon itself creates something different from what I want, for example, an activation roll would be triggered at any weapon use instead of only getting triggered at weapon creation.

I would have avoided the use of Transform for something that is only tangentially "transforming" but it seems to me that is the only way to give a new power to someone.

 

Maybe a VPP that is limited to creating only weapons and some specific type of linked power? This way I could apply the limitations/advantages to the control pool. Every time that the blade is broken, you dismiss the weapon, or you are disarmed the VPP changes to a "blank slot" and the user summons the weapon by changing the slot. This way every time you change the slot you can trigger whatever limitations/advantages you want to impose to the summoning of the mindblade.

 

On 11/12/2023 at 1:21 AM, unclevlad said:

I go with Doc's last post.  Why complicate it?

[...]

Because I'm interested in HERO only for its flexibility and crunchiness. If I were interested in a rules-light RPG I would have selected a game with a lot of useful narrative mechanics and with a low page count, or D&D 5ed which is way more played.

And I want a crunchy game because it helps with my suspension of disbelief, for example, when I play D&D (3.5) the magic feels "magical" while the mundane combat feels (to me) "plastic" and "gummy".

Therefore I would like a game that properly represents the lack of a weapon during a fight even if only for a phase. If the mindblade is broken or disarmed or dismissed because the personage needs both hands to do something there should be consequences.

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Ermenegildo said:

Because I'm interested in HERO only for its flexibility and crunchiness. If I were interested in a rules-light RPG I would have selected a game with a lot of useful narrative mechanics and with a low page count, or D&D 5ed which is way more played.

And I want a crunchy game because it helps with my suspension of disbelief, for example, when I play D&D (3.5) the magic feels "magical" while the mundane combat feels (to me) "plastic" and "gummy".

Therefore I would like a game that properly represents the lack of a weapon during a fight even if only for a phase. If the mindblade is broken or disarmed or dismissed because the personage needs both hands to do something there should be consequences.

 

Not sure you were following either my point or Vlad's.  The summon spell is the magic part, we were talking about the costs of getting there and what is easiest. A crunchy system should not mean you always go for a complex or difficult approach, it means you can, if you need, tinker with the small details of how it all works and rely less on the meta-game narrative.

 

So, if you can get a cost to use in a spell simply, then you should go for it....

[GDShore]

Okay, I have a couple of philosophiical questions about the use of the mindblade. If only your "nobles" have the right blood line to cast/use ability how long does the weapon exist? ...

Can the noble thus equip an entire army of commoners with weapons? ... Can he/she also create armor? ... Where are the elements that make up the weapon come from? ... Are they being stripped from somewhere upon the world, universe, or drawn from another universe? ... Are your nobles actually minor godlings?... Does the creation use differing amounts of psychic  energy? For instance does creating a dagger use less energy than a broadsword?... Does the creator then use psychic energy to maintain the weapon?... As a plot device for a story or a single campaign this is not a problem, as part of a world build it carries major ramifications. 

[unclevlad]

The basis of the mindblade is 3rd Ed/Pathfinder, so on that basis?

 

--it lasts as long as the user wants it to last.  It wouldn't be persistent but it costs nothing to form it.

--the right bloodline is a world-building choice...kinda similar to, say, the Deryni, where access to magic is VERY limited, and mostly tied to particular bloodlines.

--what does creating armor have to do with it?  That'd be a separate ability.

--there's no materials involved, for the D&D version...which is why we're arguing against the "real weapon" aspects.  It's not.

--different amounts of energy, no...but arguably, IIRC, in the source material, the damage (which is all that matters here) was level-dependent.  So conceivably, one could apply a Requires a Skill Roll limitation to represent that.

--the D&D mindblade didn't cost energy to maintain, but IIRC, it required the psi to have at least 1 point of psi power.

 

I wouldn't consider any of these major world-building issues...they're just part of the overall package.

[GDShore]

Okay, I haven't done D&D since late '79. But "Hero's" is not D&D" . I do not copy D&D I try to create NEW. I do not use D&D monsters or concepts. When we left D&D we turned to E.P.T. and C&S, (until FH arrived) I still occasionally do C&S.  I don't use psionics just never did. Thus if I were to create such one of the things I would consider is, persistence. If not persistent then it would not look like the real thing. The question on armor was, if weapon - also armor. [extrapolating further] Maybe D&D does'nt  use material components, Hero's magic for the most part does. If not persistent, then it is energy, energy that has to be maintained or else it dissipates. All of that is world building. Whenever you intrduce a new concept or item to a game it affects it's world build. {you have a campaign set in a medieval world, with a feudal society, the introduction of an AK47 will have serious consequence} It needs to fit whatever ruleset you have determined for your world build. 

[dmjalund]

5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

-it lasts as long as the user wants it to last.  It wouldn't be persistent but it costs nothing to form it.

Not Persistent? does this means it disappears when he goes unconscious?