Religious based organizations as bad guys.

[Jon]

Tough one folks, sure to enflame some.

 

Luckly, we are all mature aduls for the most part.

 

With that said - - -

 

How do you feel about religion and villains? Okay, that may be too simplistic, but let's go from there.

 

I can think of four specific religious organization's that occur in super powered fiction to cite as a basis of this discussion. The most mainstream two come from DC Comics in the form of Kobra's cult of Kali and Brother Blood's quasi-Catholic (kind of like Santeria) cult.

 

The other two are somewhat more obscure, with the Jimmy Swaggard like televangelist from the pages of the Elementals killing followers to get a small percentage to manifest powers and the other from the pages of the Wild Card books with the Church of Jesus Christ, Joker.

 

I even took inpiration from the last source to introduce the Church of Jesus Christ, Avatar into my Champions campaign as a christian cult and a major team of bad guys.

 

I'm just wondering just how others feel about something as potentially inflammatory as religioous organizations being introduced into a game, especially where they are going to be used as bad guys.

 

Keep in mind, although I have a maniacal zealot called Crossbearer in my game (He's basically an EP who uses a cross as his focus.), in my game world, Christianity is regarded as an organization of good.

 

So, would you dare touch upon such subjects in your game, or do you prefer to play it safer?

[Blue]

My players can be pretty irreverant so I've not worried much about offending them, just about being ignorate about religion.

 

As a result I use the most widely documented relgion from pop-culture: Catholicism. The prime villain of the last campaign was a Pope that existed in the 4-year gap after Pope Marcellinus died (In the 4th Century). I thought it was interesting to see long gaps in the line of succession of popes, so I decided that in this one case there had been a pope who resorted to subterfuge and dealing to expand the role of the church. He leaked spies into every government to report back to him. The church... shall we say... "disposed" of him. But he was not dead; Instead he remained in a centuries long slumber. The church removed all record of his reign from the vatican archives. But as he was elected pope, many of his followers thought he was still the "true voice of God" and that the church could not just decide he wasn't after all. So they located his grave in its secret location and spent hundreds of years hiding it from the world in different locals.

 

The villain had an ability to "baptize" people to his cause (Transformation attack to turn heroes evil) and an ability to raise the dead to do his bidding. He was simply referred to as the "Black Pope", as his name has been forever lost.

 

Two of his minions are heroes that existed in the campaign before the heroes arrived; One alive and one dead. The alive one they have rescued and restored. The dead one is now at peace. The pope is now a big pile of dust.

 

...or is he! (Dum-Dum-DUHHHHHHHH!)

[Hermit]

Re: Religious based organizations as bad guys.

 

Originally posted by Jon

So, would you dare touch upon such subjects in your game, or do you prefer to play it safer?

 

I dare, upon occaision, but I try to come at the issue with respect. To me it's a matter of balance. I have an NPC named Witch Hunter who is a psycho "suffer not a witch to live" type villain fueld by hate (and thinks his powers come from god) who has hunted occult style heroes or pagans before. Clearly, he's a nut who has to be stopped by the heroes. I portray other religious NPCs as being horrorfied by this extremist nut.

 

On the other side, I have guys like Steadfast, devout men of faith with super powers who's beliefs are clearly a large part of what they are, and what they are is pretty good.

[Supreme]

I think this is one of those situations where you just have to play to your players' interests -- and against their expectations. If you think a story line is going to offend even one of your players, don't run it. It's their game too. They're there for fun. Personally, my only qualms about such a story line is that it's been DONE TO DEATH!!! Of course this doesn't mean that the whole "evil cult" idea doesn't have some unexplored territory.

 

In the Wild Cards novels Fortunato and others struggle hard and finally stop the evil quasi-Masonic cult of the Astronomer only to discover to their horror that the cult was actually about to prevent the Swarm from ravaging Earth. In Supergirl (last year I think) the evil cult actually worshipped Supergirl herself.

 

And if you're looking for a real-life cult that everyone can agree to be against it's the Christian Identity Church. This is the "church" of the white-supremacists. They believe that whites are the direct descendants of Adam, and that all people of color -- and Jews -- are descendants of Satan.

[Hermit]

I do have to agree that the psycho religious nut types get too much air time in movies and elsewhere for me to feel original when using them.

 

Fortunately, Witch Hunter is currently in an Asylum gathering dust

[Chuckg]

I generally let my DM know early on that given a choice, I'd much rather not see my own religion, or its affiliates, or etc., as the bad guys, thank you. If the DM does not respect that request, I either grit my teeth (if it's mild) or take a walk (if it's blatant).

 

OTOH, if you want to do something that's classic in fiction -- such as Cthulhu cultists, DEMON, etc. -- that doesn't bug me very much.

 

Given recent events, I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over pummelling the hell out of a fictional Osama bin Laden, either.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Supreme

And if you're looking for a real-life cult that everyone can agree to be against it's the Christian Identity Church. This is the "church" of the white-supremacists. They believe that whites are the direct descendants of Adam, and that all people of color -- and Jews -- are descendants of Satan.

Sounds sorta like a white version of Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam. Sad that people can be so obsessed with something as trivial as skin color.

[Chuckg]

OK, despite the word 'Christian' in the title, I wouldn't mind fictionally beating the hell out of them, either. AAMOF, I'd enjoy it.

[Hermit]

Actually, one thing I like about 5th CU is it was actually kind of bold in this area without being insulting. One superheroine (Archangel) even had a church dedicated to her until Takofanes killed her, that sort of thing.

[Vondy]

In terms of major faiths: I wouldn't be offended insofar as their was a positive representation of the faith in question within the storyline that served as a contrast to the evil, nafarious practitioners as well.

 

In terms of cults: its a judgement call. I would avoid deliberate mischaracterizations of real world cults, though some cults are actually very disturbing.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Hermit

Actually, one thing I like about 5th CU is it was actually kind of bold in this area without being insulting. One superheroine (Archangel) even had a church dedicated to her until Takofanes killed her, that sort of thing.

The CU also has The High Apostolic Church, which I am assuming is a homage to the Church of Blood from the Teen Titans.

[Guest joen00b]

The title of this thread is Reminescent of Operation: Mindcrime by Queensryche.

 

If ya haven't heard it, give it a listen, it's about a psuedo-religious group of folks that are attempting to throw the US into another Revolution. They give hints at killing political figures without saying exact ranks or anything, but hint at assassinating the President, etc.

 

One of the Greatest Concept albums of all time.

[Sketchpad]

Personally, I don't have a problem with this. I have both religious heroes and villains in my universe ... some mainstream, some alternative ... some majorly fringe

[Bill_CCHKK]

Originally posted by Chuckg

OK, despite the word 'Christian' in the title, I wouldn't mind fictionally beating the hell out of them, either. AAMOF, I'd enjoy it.

 

Forget fictionally, I wouldn't mind beating the hell out of them in real life

 

- Bill

[Chuckg]

Neither would I... if I were physically able to, which I'm not. /sigh/

[nexus]

I don't mind religous villians or heroes as long as it not totally lopsided. Christianity tends to get that treatment I've noticed with every Christian group being fanatical conservative zealots or out and out psychos.

 

I'm not a Christian, but I don't think its fair at all.

[Doug McCrae]

I can't imagine anyone being offended by non-real world villainous religions, along the lines of the Church of Brother Blood or the Triune Understanding.

 

In one of our Champions games set in the far future, the GM had the Pope as a bad guy, I think he was a Satanist. No one batted an eye. Then again my rpg group are a bunch of communistic hippy faggots.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Like Blue, my players are a blasphemous lot anyway, so I'm pretty safe. In general, as long as the villainous religious group is sufficiently extreme and obviously not intended to be an accurate depiction of someone's real-life religion, I think you're safe.

 

For example, I have an organization in my supers world called the Angels of the New Millenium. They're a radical Christian cult (well, they consider themselves Christian; "normal" Christian groups do not agree) who believe that that the appearance of supers was the beginning of armageddon, and that supers are incarnate demons. They use intensive training and high tech to do battle with these "evil spirits," and try to turn non-super heroes and villains to their cause.

[Bill_CCHKK]

Originally posted by nexus

I'm not a Christian, but I don't think its fair at all.

I am, and I agree with you. It certainly wouldn't bother me if there were religious-based groups (Christian or otherwise) that were portrayed as villainous, as long as not *all* religious groups were portrayed that way. Lord knows there's been enough bad stuff done in this world in the name of (g|G)od(s) on all sides.

 

- Bill

[Killer Shrike]

In my younger days before I learned not to involve real world religion with my hobbies (Im an atheist for the record so dont get to offended by things, but not all my players have been thru the years), I had an organization called Revelations Awakening.

 

They were kind of ambiguous in as much as they were basically a cult with a handful of supers among their wide numbers. Sometimes they did things that were both legal and largely beneficent. Other times they did things that were very much illegal, citing "higher law" and "biblical justice" if called out on it. They had some evangelical aspects (this was during the 80's so it was pretty much over-the-top send us your money stuff), and I never qualified "out-of-school" whether the inner circle really were believers of if they were out to defraud and gain power.

 

From the PCs perspective they were clearly antagonists, but the there were many believers who say the PCs as menaces due to their interference w/ RA's activities.

 

Revelations Awakening was centered around a fellow who called himself the Messiah (humility not being a strong suit), a zealot with a handy Cosmic Power Pool. He did detect as a mutant due to a DF, but allocated some point in his VPP towards an Invisibility to Mutant Detectors subconciously. In his GMs only bg notes, he really believed himself to be the Son of God born again, and further that the end of the world as described in Revelations was coming to pass. He sought to "redeem" all those who could be converted to his brand of non-denominational but Catholic-flavored Christianity, and often quoted the lamb/lion bit. He had a very narrow view of Salvation and non-Christians, and a belief that temporal government was inconsequential which was at the root of the organizations darker side.

 

Some of the other members of RA were:

 

David, a gambit-like mutant (matter to energy conversion), with a EB and RKA Multipower with Range Based on STR (thrown objects) and a OIF buy off of that Limitation (a sling) to allow normal ranges. Was young and naive, having grown up in RA to parents that joined the cult/church early. He was basically a good kid, around 18 or 19 as the game progressed, but was also a total believer and would do anything Messiah expressly told him to do.

 

Samson, a medium brick with wrestling and extra STR w/ x10 END push ability. Not really a big believer in the whole RA bit, but knew a good deal when it was staring him in the face. He was the least likely to do illegal things in the service of RA, not bcs he was particularly law abiding, but bcs he wasnt a zealot and wasnt willing to go to prison over the RA agenda. Was behind a couple of anonymous tips to the PCs when the RA was up to some particularly messed hijinks.

 

Crusader, a light brick super-athelete with modern armor and a number of HKA's (Sword, Dagger, etc) in a MPP. He was suspected in a number of killings, but nothing ever stuck due to ready-made Betty Crocker style alibis and the best lawyers RA could buy. Basically a Holy Killer sort -- a Psychopath lashing out via scripture. Thou shalt smite the wicked -- and most people or wicked. Used as a heavy enforcer and number-puncher type by Messiah. He was powerful enough to take on a team of std supers by himself for a while, and maybe beat them if their resistant DEF wasnt great.

 

Lady D'Arc, a Joan of Arc clone, she had a powerful PRE, an invisible force field (not vs Fire -- hehe, bad, I know), a suit of largely decorative armor (thought to house a FF generator by the players), and a nasty laser-forged sword (double AP IIRC). She was a beautiful fanatic type. The femme fatale that the Heros want to save, but shes too flawed to the very core of her being. She was dangerous, and often paired with Crusader, who she didnt get along with too well personally, but they worked well together "professionally".

 

Methuselah, an old man with broad psychic powers -- also Messiah's mentor, he found the young boy living on the streets with his Mindscan after having a vision of him with his precognition. He was a little off-kilter, but I was careful to ensure his declarations and crackpot theories had just enough truth and relevance to raise a little doubt even in the most staunch anti-RA players/PCs. He was not a combatant, and had enough mental powers to ensure it. Kind of a Charles Xavier power set mixed with a way-beyond-the-pale fundamentalist mentality.

 

Cruciform, a mutant with the power to telekinetically control wood, with a variety of attacks including EBs vs PD OIF: Pole/Tree of opportunity, a reduced penetration RKA splinter attack, a couple of HA's, Cosmetic Transform vs Wood, and of course a nasty TK via Wood coupled w/ a 360 Radius Targeting Sense Wood Spatial Awareness power. Suprisingly effective character, I didnt use him much because he caused so much collateral damage in a city, pulling down powerline for their poles, ripping desks and furniture out of offices, tearing apart houses in residential areas and so forth. I originally wrote him up kind of as a joke, but quickly realized in the right circumstances he was ridiculously nasty. Personality wise, he was kind of a punk kid just clever enough to latch onto the whole bible schtick, in his own kind of snide, sarcastic way. The PCs HATED this guy for some reason, and got into a bit of hot water after bringing him in after one encounter very badly roughed up. They were able to slip out of it as being justifiable due to the sheer amount of collateral damage Cruciform had been causing in the encounter; surely stopping his reign of destruction was worth a little excessive force .

 

Thats the main ones I can recall the details of off the top of my head. Revelations Awakening wasn't the primary threat or antagonist to the PCs, being more of a recurrent background threat like VIPER or ARGENT in the current CU. But they were fairly memorable. However, later on I was in a new area and had joined a new group. We were shooting the breeze about past campaigns, and I fondly recalled some of the the RA bits, some of which made for "kewl things from past games worth sharing", and one of the players got highly offended by the whole concept. Turned out he was a devout Baptist, and took the Bible very seriously. That was my first clue that RL religious themes are not safe at all speeds with all gamers. Ive since tried to veer away from it where possible.

[Hermit]

Oddly, I once made a villainous group of rabid anti-theists. This group venerated science, and saw mystisicm (and they included all religions/spirtuality in that) as the root of all evil that must be destroyed. Any hero claiming to be a 'god' or empowered by one was their very first target.

[Edsel]

Re: Religious based organizations as bad guys.

 

Originally posted by Jon

I even took inpiration from the last source to introduce the Church of Jesus Christ, Avatar into my Champions campaign as a christian cult and a major team of bad guys.

 

I'm just wondering just how others feel about something as potentially inflammatory as religioous organizations being introduced into a game, especially where they are going to be used as bad guys.

 

Keep in mind, although I have a maniacal zealot called Crossbearer in my game (He's basically an EP who uses a cross as his focus.), in my game world, Christianity is regarded as an organization of good.

 

So, would you dare touch upon such subjects in your game, or do you prefer to play it safer?

I really don't have any problem with it and I am a confirmed Christian. Evil people have often hid behind the facade of religion. History is rife with examples.

 

Ironically the new Dark Champions setting that I am working on will have the players working for an agency that is somewhat religiously based. Some of their funding will come secretly from churchs since they will battle vampires and the like from time to time.

[Ghost who Walks]

I guess I have a pretty balenced group of players.

 

Generally, I treat them as just another organization. Thye do good, they do bad, just like any other group. My organizations tend to be very grey.

 

Having said that, I do tend to use them quite a bit in the background.

 

For example, I had aliens visit the Earth and ask to visit the Pope. Seems one of his predecesors had helped them, centuries ago. When the US governemnt demanded to talk to them, they were addressed in a native Americna dialect, whose tribe had been wiped out a century ago.

 

As a side note, I've also stayed away from the Demons/Angels business. Not sure why, other that I never felt it appropriate for a game.

[Gary]

In a campaign that I was in, the Archangel Gabriel turned out to be one of the biggest bad guys. He started a Crusade against all the "Pagan" religions and brought the world to the brink of Armageddon. Eventually the Archangel Michael (who also did a lot of damage early before repenting) along with virtually every powered being in the world stopped him and he was cast down into Hell like Lucifer was ages ago. A different Hell since Lucifer doesn't like to share.

[assault]

Re: Re: Religious based organizations as bad guys.

 

Originally posted by Edsel

Ironically the new Dark Champions setting that I am working on will have the players working for an agency that is somewhat religiously based. Some of their funding will come secretly from churchs since they will battle vampires and the like from time to time.

 

There was a fabulous British TV series a while back called Ultraviolet.

 

The vampire hunters were working for the Inquisition.

 

See:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A590843

 

There are lots of other sites that you can find if you do a search.