What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

[BlackSword]

Sorry if its been mentioned, but just glancing through the thread from time to time. But seeing what is planned for 2005, and the continual mention of Lovecraft, I would like to see a good Pulp Era discussion. Good description of what DEMON was up to, and lots of plot threads to grab onto. I could really see DEMON as a major pulp era villain organization.

[SAVeira]

Originally posted by BlackSword

Sorry if its been mentioned, but just glancing through the thread from time to time. But seeing what is planned for 2005, and the continual mention of Lovecraft, I would like to see a good Pulp Era discussion. Good description of what DEMON was up to, and lots of plot threads to grab onto. I could really see DEMON as a major pulp era villain organization.

 

I would second that suggestion. An early DEMON would make a perfect pulp era villain organization. A cult straight out a Doc Savage or Shadow novel.

 

 

S.A. Veira

[FenrisUlf]

Originally posted by allen

Emphasis mine.

 

That story arc is actually a perfect example of what I'm talking about, since the story progression is decidedly not Lovecraftian -- in short (SPOILER if you haven't read it, btw -- and you should read it, because it's alot of fun): Superman journeys to the heart of Mageddon, an unspeakable evil from before the Fourth Age (as I recall), and he succumbs to despair, allowing the evil to consume him. BUT. Batman reminds him of who he is -- the big boy scout who can't lose -- and Superman, drawing upon the depths of his courage, human spirit, etc., then proceeds to defeat the unbeatable evil. In other words: rather than the being reduced to a gibbering maniac, or at least being haunted forever more by the event, Superman triumphs in the face of incomprehensible evil because of his human qualities.

 

The ending of JLA: WWIII is as if in "Call of Cthulhu" Johanson shook off the madness that gripped him, then put a hammerlock on Cthulhu and said, 'Ok, squid head, time for you to go back to R'lyeh and get back to dreaming -- humanity's here to stay!'

 

Maybe REH would've ended the story that way, but I have a hard time imagining HPL doing so, thus my hesitation to use the term, Lovecraftian.

 

However... certain elements of the story would definitely work for a DEMON plot -- the best of which are (off the top of my head and w/o re-reading the story): As Mageddon approaches Earth, humanity descends into madness and war because of its influence. The appearance of Mageddon. The big jellyfish/brain thing that takes over people and uses them to prepare the way for Mageddon. All of those are elements of weird fiction which are definitely at home with DEMON.

 

Anyway, hopefully that clarifies what I'm talking about a little.

 

Yes, that was a great story -- and while I didn't even think of the 'Lovecraftian horror' angle, it sounds like a perfect fit. Especially humanity triumphing because of its human qualities -- that is way overdue in gaming (I used to be a tremendous WW mark, but I just got sick of the endless 'humans suck and will always lose' attitude).

 

It sounds like you're off to a magnificent start, Allen.

[Kevin]

Anticipating DEMON very eagerly.

 

Hope to see DEMON be much more than "Viper with bad magic".

 

Would very much like to see a version of DEMON that is so scarily world-threatening if the general public knew what was happening no one would ever sleep at night again.

 

Hope that whatever the mechanics of DEMON end up being, the ATMOSPHERE is such that there is a "shadow world beneath the normal world" creepiness to the whole thing.

 

Would like to see the mystic element of DEMON emphasized, in a way unique to Champions, but stylistically parallel to the way Joss Whedon has made his "Buffyverse" a mystic horrorshow set against the landscape of the real world.

 

In addition to the mystic menace which must neceassarily be at the forefront, please add in all the INTRIGUE and POLITICAL MANEUVERING which needs to be there to explain a) Why DEMON hasn't yet succeeded and Why all those powerful and powerhungry inner circle mages haven't combined their power.

 

Would like to see a chunk of the book dealing with "good" magic users opposing DEMON, both individuals and groups, "bad" magic users in competition with DEMOM, both individuals and groups, and how DEMON fits into the rest of the magical mystical portion of the Champions Universe.

 

Combine that with kick-ass brand-new conceptions for evil magic, evil mages, evil henchmen, and evil creatures serving the cause of DEMON preserving the best of what has gone before and eliminating the goofiest of what has gone before and "voila" - the perfect DEMON book.

 

But no pressure...

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Many people have brought up good points. Some of my own:

 

1) There needs to be a clear distinction between DEMON and the Circle of the Scarlet Moon. Why are they separate? Do they oppose each other or merely ignore each other? personally, I think it's redundant for both to exist in the CU, but if they are to exist.....you need to explain why they just haven't merged together whether by mutual philosphy or force.

 

2) A writeup of at least one of the Kings of Edom seems almost mandatory....if only to see what we are up against. We need to learn why we fear the night.

 

3) In general, let's see some more character writeups. 5th Edition has been very stingy when it comes to including writeups in their supplements.

 

4) Keep the inner circle of Demon concept. Change the specific characters as you will, but the idea of a cabal running the show was probably the best thing about 4th edition Demon.

 

5) I agree with the many other posts. How do they recruit? What do they have to offer? Naked power isn't a good answer unless it's measurable. I think it's unlikely they would remain unless there was some short term rewards to being a member. I guess you could go the religious cult route. I've never understood what makes people join and then stay with them.

 

6) Lots and lots of plot ideas. The more....the merrier.

 

Rob

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Dr. MID-Nite

A writeup of at least one of the Kings of Edom seems almost mandatory....if only to see what we are up against. We need to learn why we fear the night.

 

Strongly agree with this. Vulshoth would probably be the logical choice, since it's already detailed in Creatures of the Night, and as it's Dean Shomshak's creation there should be no problem using it. But that version of Vulshoth, horrific as it is, is just too weak compared to the newest CU Omega-class villains. Despite my mixed feelings about grossly powerful characters, if one can ever argue for something that could crush Dr. Destroyer like a bug, a King of Edom should be in the front rank.

 

(I love saying "the Kings of Edom." It's one of those names/titles that just reverberates with power and menace.)

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Strongly agree with this. Vulshoth would probably be the logical choice, since it's already detailed in Creatures of the Night, and as it's Dean Shomshak's creation there should be no problem using it. But that version of Vulshoth, horrific as it is, is just too weak compared to the newest CU Omega-class villains. Despite my mixed feelings about grossly powerful characters, if one can ever argue for something that could crush Dr. Destroyer like a bug, a King of Edom should be in the front rank.

 

(I love saying "the Kings of Edom." It's one of those names/titles that just reverberates with power and menace.)

 

I agree as well. A King of Edom(based on some Elder Gods I attempted to adapt from Call of Cthulhu) are going to be around 1500-2000 points IMO.

 

Rob

[Southern Cross]

Remember,though that those stats represent Vulshoth just released from eons of bondage,when it should be possible to beat it back into its prison dimension.Given enough time free ,it should become virtually invincible.

And remember,one of Vulshoth's goals is to release the OTHER Kings of Edom.

It's possible that Vulshoth is actually one of the WEAKER Kings....

[Scott Destroyer]

Hello,

 

Excellent discussion so far. The upcoming "mystic world" goodies are high on my list of "Hero-Games-stuff-to get".

 

Originally Posted by Killer Shrike:

Some exploration of if Magic works, why these dipsticks choose to practice dark soul-endangering magics rather than the safer "white" magics. Whats the pay off? In the HERO System a 2d6 Mystic Bolt RKA SFX: 'White Magic" is identical to a 2d6 Mystic Bolt RKA SFX: "Black Magic". So whats the trade off? If there isnt a payoff for accepting the risks of using "Black Magic" the DEMON magic users just dont make a lot of sense.

 

The typical answer to this one is, "because it's easier". If there really is any "soul-endangering" or other "risks" to the black magic, it should be represented with a corresponding Limitation on the power, or a Disadvantage for the character taking the power. This should make it easier to attain in story terms (just bargain with a dark power for the knowledge, instead of studying and practicing magic), as well as easier to buy (cheaper) in game terms. Also, white mages often have to abide by moral codes or other limitations that would be seen as no fun at all to those inclined to the dark arts - evil mages' Disadvantages tend to reflect wretched excess more than asceticism...

 

Originally Posted by Dr. MID-Nite:

There needs to be a clear distinction between DEMON and the Circle of the Scarlet Moon. Why are they separate? Do they oppose each other or merely ignore each other? personally, I think it's redundant for both to exist in the CU, but if they are to exist.....you need to explain why they just haven't merged together whether by mutual philosphy or force.

 

I think this one's worthy of some attention, too. Here's my take on the two organizations' views of each other:

• Circle of the Scarlet Moon: "We entered into the practice of black magic to become the masters of vast dark supernatural powers - not merely their allies, and certainly not their debased and degraded slaves, like the morons in DEMON. Both groups invoke, bind and traffic with ancient and inhuman powers of evil, but when we encounter beings too powerful to control, we wait and study and gather power until we can break them to our will. The fools in DEMON imagined in their arrogance and stupidity that they could get the better of bargains with such creatures, and they sold themselves into the basest thralldom in return for power they might well have had on their own terms with just a bit of patience, discipline, and arcane talent. Their fate is no worse than idiocy of that magnitude deserves."
  
• DEMON: "The Circle of the Scarlet Moon is nothing more than a social club for mystically-inclined dilettantes who lack the courage to confront and bargain with the primordial beings, older than time itself, that can grant true mystical power. We, on the other hand, are not afraid to face any being, make any pact, take any oath, render any service, and carry out any ritual that will attain for us the power we rightly deserve. And for our courage, we are rewarded with mystical might far beyond the pathetic dreams of the petty dabblers in the Circle."
  

 

Originally Posted by Dr. MID-Nite:

How do they recruit? What do they have to offer? Naked power isn't a good answer unless it's measurable. I think it's unlikely they would remain unless there was some short term rewards to being a member. I guess you could go the religious cult route. I've never understood what makes people join and then stay with them.

 

They can recruit the way con artists and charlatans have always recruited pigeons, and they will have the advantage of magic that actually works. Take advantage of the desperate and confused, people growing cynical and questioning morality and justice in the world, or even petty criminals frantic to gain an edge in a world of super-beings. Tell them you can get them what they most desire, especially dark or impossible desires - untraceable mystical revenge on enemies, magically-compelled love, ensured victory in some important or profitable competition, arcane cures to incurable health conditions, contact with the spirits of the departed beloved. Disparage other options for dealing with their situation, and dismiss moral qualms about "dark magic" as the product of propaganda from materialistic social institutions that have been attempting for centuries to suppress magic for their own ends. A little psychological manipulation can get people in the door and numb their consciences for long enough to get them to take the membership oaths and go through initiation rites.

 

Typically, as part of initiation, new recruits will be asked to commit some criminal or immoral act in the company of their fellows, to prove their loyalty and perhaps show that they have "transcended" their old moral beliefs. If they've been "softened up" properly, and given hope (through the sight of some magic) that their recruiter's promises can be kept, they will go through with it - those unwilling to do so will have been spotted and weeded out well before this point. This can be used as leverage against them in the future, as can any crimes they commit from then on in DEMON's service. When recruits come to realize that they are really just the local Morbane's despised lackeys, they have three choices: try to quit, and face the consequences; continue serving, reluctantly, which will make it that much harder to quit in the future; or "make the best of it", and actually devote oneself to DEMON and its goals, hoping for advancement and power within the group. By this time, too, recruits will likely have seen examples of the Morbanes' utter ruthlessness and depravity, and of the dark sorceries that are used to enforce the membership oaths, and this will no doubt have some influence on their decision-making process. Most recruits, even enthusiastic supporters of DEMON, will never rise very far above their lowly status, but those with a measure of mystical talent and unfettered by the arbitrary strictures of conventional morality can also be tempted with advancement over their peers by initiation into the organization's higher ranks.

 

Note also that even recruits who are low-ranking in the DEMON hierarchy may be persons of wealth and influence in the "normal" world, who came to DEMON in search of things their wealth and power couldn't buy; this will give DEMON some worldly power in addition to its arcane power, enabling it to give some mundane rewards to lackeys who render useful service, and to punish snoopers into its secrets without resorting to overt magic.

 

Hope this helps!

[Metaphysician]

Tyrannon is another of those entities that should crush Doctor Destroyer like a bug.

[Dust Raven]

DEMON has been my all time favorite organization. I can't wait for the 5th Ed book!

 

I've always run Demon a bit differently than what's presented in the books. For one, I'd like DEMON to be decentralized. To maintain secrecy and security, each faction is cut off from the rest of the organization and left on it's own. Other factions may aid, but only direction of those higher up in the organization. There may even by rivalries between two or more factions, if they know about each other.

 

One other thing I'd like to so see is some variation on magical styles. In my campaign world, the Morbanes are the faction leaders, and are permitted to recruit and train as they see fit. Since the Morbanes often come from different parts the world, and some aren't even human, this would make for quite some varity. A sorcerer morbane would have a cult-like following of fanatical worshipers and practice the dark arts, while an immortal and corrupt kung fu master would have a school of students bonded to him through life stealing Chinese magic. A werewolf morbane might just bit potential followers to create minor lycanthropes for his minions. This kind of variety might not be possible in a single publication, but it's great and always keeps the players on their toes when they come up against what seems like a new organization that turns out to be in league with the one they though they finally stamped out.

 

Finally, and more likely to fit into the book, I'd like it stressed not just how evil DEMON is, but how they are evil. DEMON doesn't hunt down superheroes and kill them (well, unless it's the only way). If they know a hero's out there, they'll sent a group to strike two location at once, one their primary target, the other a bus load of nuns. If you find out your secret identidy, they'll never tell anyone. They'll just turn your sister into a vampire and give you the choice of killing her or letting her become a killer herself.

 

They're sneaky too. Imagine the shock the heroes get when the virgin sacrifice they rescued is actually an agent sent to infiltrate their HQ. Or they find out their local morbane is only 12 (or only looks 12). Demon also loves to make other people do their work. They've infiltrated nearly every other organizaiton in the world and can often pull strings enough to cover their tracks. I've run adventures where the main antoganist has been Demon and the players have never known it.

[Klytus]

Re: What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

 

Originally posted by allen

What kind of tone, mood, theme, etc. are you expecting from this organization? My own thoughts (currently, at least) are: the weirdly mystical with generous helpings of mephistophelian malevolence and over-the-top espionage action.

I always imagined DEMON as a group of Cthulu-cultists in the Champions universe. Whether the powers they serve are alien, infernal, or both, or something else is a toss-up. But these dudes should definately have that "mad, bad and dangerous" feel about them. They have sold their souls for real power, giving them a maniacle clarity of purpose that would make even the most hardened suicide bomber seem wishy-washy in comparison. They are further "liberated" by the fact that there is no pretense that they serve a noble cause or a higher being: they serve evil, they know it, their enemies know it, and they simply do not hold back.

 

And these guys are everywhere. Remember the Satanic-cult hysteria back in the 90's? It was all true, but DEMON agents went to work. They brainwashed psychiatrists and victims alike into believing false tales of ritual abuse. heir campaign was so efefctive, the brave souls who saw the truth were the ones who suffered ruin. Now the forces of good have the disadvantage when fighting DEMON, they are the ones who must remain covert about their operations or else they'll me made into laughing-stocks.

 

Oh, and unless D.E.M.O.N actually stands for something, why are we using all caps when spelling it out? If it isn;t an acronym, just call them "Demon" and be done with it.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Re: What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

 

Originally posted by Klytus

I always imagined DEMON as a group of Cthulu-cultists in the Champions universe. Whether the powers they serve are alien, infernal, or both, or something else is a toss-up. But these dudes should definately have that "mad, bad and dangerous" feel about them. They have sold their souls for real power, giving them a maniacle clarity of purpose that would make even the most hardened suicide bomber seem wishy-washy in comparison. They are further "liberated" by the fact that there is no pretense that they serve a noble cause or a higher being: they serve evil, they know it, their enemies know it, and they simply do not hold back.

 

Klytus, you just sent a shudder along my spine.

[Sketchpad]

When I was in High School, we used to co-run/play Champions and Demon was one of our three main thorns (the other two being The Ultimates & Viper). When using Demon, we took some of the various magical characters from the 3rd ed books and had a story that recruited them into Demon ... kinda like a Masters of Mystical Evil ... and created something akin to the Hellfire Club as an Inner Circle for the organization. As the plot went on, the heroes found that Demon had their hands in EVERYTHING ... almost like Wolfram & Hart in Angel. What would I like to see in a Demon book? Something that talks about their hidden empire and uses the concepts of true evils as a means to get it Also, please, please, please redesign Demon's outfits ... I liked their 3rd ed look much better than the one I saw in CU.

[Mayday]

Im not sure really what I want out of this book. I like magical villains alot though.

 

I like the idea of them fighting on several levels at once. Street to Cosmic. Fighting other magical types and something about some of these enemies and their feud. Some energy and intrigue going on. The feel that they have a focus, alot of balls in the air and only one needs to land for something Bad is going to happen. Some they can lose and have a fallback plan, but there is always a plan. I want to feel fear of these guys and anger or purpose from them.

 

Named Bosses at each tier, so at lower levels (where I play) its not just a bunch of identical figs on the table named #1, #2, #3 and so on.

[zakueins]

Wolfram&Hart.

 

If that isn't the perfect defintion of DEMON in the United States ("the law firm that Jonnie Cocraine was too ethical to join"), I don't know what is.

 

Why bother sending Mordaines against your heros? Lawsuits are so much more effective....

 

We should have a definite "regional flavor" to DEMON, from the brandy-sniffing megarich with the "unique tastes" to "I hate the world, I'm going to blow it up" standards. Perhaps the Inner Circle could have each of it's members with fingers in a paritcular pie-from magic/tech hybrids to raising armies of zombie hamsters.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by zakueins

Perhaps the Inner Circle could have each of it's members with fingers in a paritcular pie-from magic/tech hybrids to raising armies of zombie hamsters.

Zombie hamsters? Going by another thread (because I'd never heard of such a thing before), this is something that's been done in the "source" material. If you're talking about doing an homage, they should be something similar, but not quite the same... like, maybe, squirrels.

[RobCRogers]

Re: What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

 

I just started reading through this thread. This might have been addressed later, but I wanted to weigh in on it.

Originally posted by allen

DEMON does not use technology -- their magic and enchanted items (and the book will detail plenty of those) are more than enough to make up for the lack. In short: if a Brother's got a gun, he bought it at the gun shop.

I'm disappointed at this decision. Not because I want DEMON to be high-tech gurus, but because I always liked the conceit that people thought DEMON was a typical villain agency with Satanic trappings. The armored DEMON agents were always fun fodder to use in battles. They don't necessarily have to be manufactured by DEMON, after all--that's what ARGENT is there for. Besides, who's to say that magic has to be low tech? I'd love to see DEMON Morbanes with diabolically powered laptops, cursed mortar shells, etc. A pedestrian "cult" group is going to get pretty boring.

[Kevin]

Re: Re: What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

 

Originally posted by RobCRogers

I I'd love to see DEMON Morbanes with diabolically powered laptops, cursed mortar shells, etc. A pedestrian "cult" group is going to get pretty boring.

 

I was GLAD to see no high tech in DEMON...until I read this response.

 

Relying on technology makes no sense for DEMON, but having common technology demonically enhanced could be creative and fun. Joss Whedon has done this before in the Buffyverse, and it was appealing.

 

Having DEMON incorporate Wolfram & Hart qualities has been suggested on this Board...how about DEMON incorporate qualities that form a cross between Wolfram & Hart and a demonic version of the Initiative?

[Vondy]

I always felt DEMON was way too "Live and Let Die" and "Euro-Trash-Pseudo-Cult" to be of much use. Robes, wavy daggers, and pentagrams will only take you so far." It was very pulp, and that's good for a Cthulu or Pulp oriented game, but DEMON isn't published as a part of a Horror Hero or Pulp Hero line. Its published as a part of the Champions line. It should certainly contain info on how to segue into Horror and Pulp, but the reason I never used DEMON was that it didn't fit into the superhero mainstream (even my gritty paramilitary and intelligence mainstream) very well.

 

Demon should leverage and reference the other mystic organizations (and take more of a mystic masters bent) that are mentioned in the CU.

[RobCRogers]

Re: Re: Re: What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

 

Originally posted by Kevin

I was GLAD to see no high tech in DEMON...until I read this response.

 

Your nickel's in the mail.

[Kevin]

When you think about it, some tech makes sense.

 

Not everyone, in fact not MOST, of the members of DEMON should be magic-users. The inner circle are going to jealously guard their secrets and the sources of their power. People with magical potential are going to get used up, not made into apprentices! Who wants to empower a potential rival?

 

So what does that leave? Certainly summoned monsters, mystically created and endowed minions, etc. But having people capable of using mystically adapted technology would make for a DEMON more useful as a supervillain organization.

 

The trick, of course, will be to balance this so DEMON is unique and not "bad mojo VIPER"!

 

Imagine cursing someone through their computer via the internet, enchanting weapons to strike harder and more accurately, etc. Think "modern technology gone awry through possession".

 

Speculating is fun.

 

Can't wait to see what is actually written!

[churd]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE avoid the hordes of brother agents with the standard issue 'blaster wands' and 'protective amulets.' DEMON has always been distinguished from Viper and other generic agencies by their use of magic instead of technology, but what makes magic distinctive is that it is NOT uniform, mass produced product like tecnology is. When you take this aspect away from magic, it loses its flavor and seems just like tech. Agents with a 10dd EB and 6/6 armor feel very much alike, wether you call it a blaster or a rod of hellfire.

 

In the past DEMON has emphasised the individuality of the Morbanes, and I think this needs to extend to the cannon fodder level characters as well, since they are the ones players interact with the most. In my campaign the grunts that a Morbane uses are indivdually tailored: An transmuter might devolve his followers into super-strong beastmen, a necromancer has zombie hordes, an demonologist uses packs of hell hounds, an enchanter has golems and magical constructs, etc. One agent tends to be very much like another no matter how much a GM tries to give them their own flavor - but throw some mystic gargoyles at your players and they WILL stand out.

[Prometheus]

If not an outright description and right ups for the Kings of Edom, how about at least a few words on what they are and aren't. From what has already been disclosed about DEMON in the 5ed., (POSSIBLE SPOILER) the Kings are what DEMON is all about- the satanic cult thing is the front that's replaced the old tech schtick. Given that, shouldn't everything else trickle down from there? Basically, from the top down, what makes DEMON not VIPER, or not the Circle of the Scarlet Moon?

 

Personally, DEMON's new "look and feel" strikes me as more like a cult in the style of H.P. Lovecraft- Starry Wisdom and such- adapted to comic books, with the Circle more like the Hellfire Club (both the historical and comic book versions). The idea of a wild eyed fanatic in a dark room, bent over the screen of a jury rigged supercomputer, feverishly trying to decipher a piece of Edomite Hypergeometry appeals to me, but if a morbane regularly deals with the heroes with MP5 toting commandoes, I'm gonna wonder why I didn't just use the VIPER sourcebook. I apologize if that sounds harsh, but I like I said, I'm looking for what makes DEMON distinct- the rest isn't necessarily not welcome, it's just gravy.

 

Incidentally, at the risk appearing like a JLA fanboy, I'd recommend watching the Justice League episode Eclipsed on Cartoon Network, and tracking down a copy of JLA: Primeval one-shot from DC Comics. Both definitely in the weird vein.

[Ferret]

Demon ideas

 

I have redone Demon for my own game and this is a sample of what I did hope it helps.

Demon has agents that act as simple soldiers, researchers, infiltrators into other groups and assissins. Agents are very loyal being terrified and at the same time well rewarded. Creates a great sense of loyality for the agents. Morbanes are magic users leading indivudal cells. One source of income for Demon is the Crystal Church a sort of new age hippie kinda church. It preaches tolerance the use of expensive crystals and meditation. These churches are used as a great way to raise money through donations and sales of church stuff. The buildings are used as clearing centers for information and recruitments. Church congrations are also used as spies and loyal dupes thanks to the influence of the magic crystals sold or given to those in postions useful to Demon. However these people are never used in crimes that can be traced back to Demon. They also sell magical services to others for a very high price. Everyone knows Demon is out to rule the world through mystical might. However the real goal is to bring back the ancient gods and destroy the universe. Lastily my Demon has regular access to a low tech magical world which they exploit. They run a vast empire and enslave millions to do there bidding. I also like everything Killer Shrike wrote the man has taste. Also ignore those that want tech brought into Demon. Soldiers should use common weapons with the odd magic item tossed in. A cool new martial art may also help Demon be more of a nasty threat.

Ferret.........