THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think a careful examination of "brick physics" is essential. One of the biggest points of discussion on these boards is making choices about "realism." Might also be good to see bricks at the other end of the spectrum. The original Hourman from DC Comics simply took a pill which doubled his strength for an hour. The Golden Age was filled with such characters who merely increased their strength by a round number ("I have the strength of ten men!"). You might want to have an article that examines what are some practical minimum levels for brick strength.

 

Now I'm getting an idea for a campaign...

 

Actually, what about including a chart for "This STR is the Strength of 10 men" - a column added in the overall STR chart, perhaps. 10 men = 26 or 27 STR (10x 1 man). 100 is 43 or 45. Might make those lower-end SR points look a little more impressive.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

An expanded lifting chart with TONS of objects on it would be cool. I know Marvel and DC don't know how heavy anything is, but well, neither do I! It'd be cool to have a whombing big chart of what things weigh. Likewise, how much STR certain feats would require: stopping a runaway train, holding up a suspension bridge (from the bottom or by holding two severed cable ends), catching a falling aircraft (of various sizes, for those flying bricks), holding up a skyscraper by a support pillar, etc. Of course, those feats that are really transforms (like crushing coal to diamond) wouldn't be included.

 

A good discussion on background skills that complement brick-hood would be nice. For example, a brick who's got a background in architecture should get a bonus for the above-mentioned building support trick. Or for tearing one down by attacking the main supports. That sort of thing.

 

If any of this is repetative, I apologize in advance, as I don't have time to read the whole thread at the moment.

[TheEmerged]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The main thing I want to see is listed in the contents already -- I'd just like to emphasize that I'd like to see a *lot* of writeups. And by a lot I mean more than 30.

 

One particular writeup I'd like to see would be the same character at three or four points in his development -- starting (350), experienced (450), and veteran (650) at the very least.

[Pegasus]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A lot of good ideas already, I'll just elaborate on some of my particular interest.

Telekinetic bricks should definitely be in there. In fact, I'd like to see an article or two on how the brick archetype would combine/interact with many different powers. Frex, bricks with absorption, multiple limbs, as mentioned growth and DI, shrinking, stretching, tunneling, running (I love the Rhino), clinging, desolidification...there's a lot of ground to cover there.

Related to that, the topic of non-traditional bricks, or anti-brick bricks.

Also, the invulnerability issue should be explored in depth. There are those that consider the low strength but indestructible characters to be bricks.

I'll also second (or third, i guess) the notion of bricks for other genres.

I'm sure I'll think of more. I just wuv big stroong men!

[Southern Cross]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

It may be more appropriate for Galactic Champions, but I'd like to have rules for high-speed bricks boring through rocks,spacecraft, etc.

[Solomon]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Many players feel that Champions bricks usually don't perform as well as their comic-book equivalents, especially against inanimate objects. It would be nice to have a section dealing with this issue from several points of view:

 

- Using powers to simulate superstrength feats.

- "Balsawood world", or the pro and cons of reducing objects' DEF and BODY in your campaign.

- Notes on why objects and vehicles are so tough from a game-mechanics point of view.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

There was a thread going on a while back (well before the board change) about using "excess" strength to throw something a really long way...the old "I'll throw this baseball into orbit!!!" ploy. As it stands right now, a brick with a STR less than 100 can't do that (based on the given throwing ranges); he can't even come close! Yet this is a fairly common "stunt" in comic books, at least with small objects.

 

Perhaps an optional rule for converting "excess" STR into increased range instead of increased damage...?

[JmOz]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I want to know how to make my bricks invulnerable to bullets without screwing game balance (Something more that buying a ton of defenses or some such)

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I want to know how to make my bricks invulnerable to bullets without screwing game balance (Something more that buying a ton of defenses or some such)

The only thing that comes to my mind is buying about 30 PD with the Limitation Only Versus Conventional Weapons (-1). A weapon would then be affected by the PD only if it has the Real Weapon Limitation.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

There was a thread going on a while back (well before the board change) about using "excess" strength to throw something a really long way...the old "I'll throw this baseball into orbit!!!" ploy. As it stands right now, a brick with a STR less than 100 can't do that (based on the given throwing ranges); he can't even come close! Yet this is a fairly common "stunt" in comic books, at least with small objects.

 

Perhaps an optional rule for converting "excess" STR into increased range instead of increased damage...?

This rule in fact exists. For each 1d6 of damage sacrificed, a thrower can gain an additional inch of distance. With a running throw, a 50 Str brick could throw someone 42" (just over 250 feet), and not hurt them a bit. In the alternative, I guess they could just throw them straight up one quarter as high, and let gravity worry about the damage...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

This rule in fact exists. For each 1d6 of damage sacrificed' date=' a thrower can gain an additional inch of distance. With a running throw, a 50 Str brick could throw someone 42" (just over 250 feet), and not hurt them a bit. In the alternative, I guess they could just throw them straight up one quarter as high, and let gravity worry about the damage...[/quote']

 

BoneDaddy, would you please point me to where that rule is mentioned?

[BoneDaddy]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I believe its in the chapter on characteristics, the page after the strength table, under the section on "Throwing Things," below the table. I don't have the book with me, so I'm going from notoriously inaccurate memory. It's slipped in as an optional rule. I think it could be referred to as "dicta".

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I plead innocent to this one -- my manuscript' date=' and my later notes, give a different formula (essentially coming down to half the STR, on the logic that enough STR to lift it should be equal to enough Casual STR to pull it with wheels).[/quote']

There's more to it than that. It's about friction and work. Say you want to pull a one-ton object. It takes more STR to pull or push it along the ground than it would if it was on wheels (wheels reduce friction). It takes more STR to pull it on small casters (like your couch or office chair) than it would on big wheels (like a wheelchair - bigger wheels have more leverage in getting over small bumps). It takes more STR to pull it over soft grass or sand than it would to pull it over a hard, smoothly paved road (fewer bumps to go over and less ground compression friction). It takes more STR to pull it up a hill than it does to pull it along a level surface (but less than it would to pull it straight up). This may seem like a lot of work and excess detail, but it's really quite simple. Don't be afraid of the word "physics" - it isn't rocket science. You don't have to delve into intra-nuclear forces or relativity. This is simple mechanics - wheels, levers, inclined planes. Ancient civilizations used them millenia before Newton.

 

With emphasis on this (or 1.5 points per pip) being GM's option, as opposed to an all-out change in rules.

Yes, of course! I wasn't suggesting an official rules change. I understand the chaos that would unleash. "GM's option only."

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

This rule in fact exists. For each 1d6 of damage sacrificed' date=' a thrower can gain an additional inch of distance. With a running throw, a 50 Str brick could throw someone 42" (just over 250 feet), and not hurt them a bit. In the alternative, I guess they could just throw them straight up one quarter as high, and let gravity worry about the damage...[/quote']Unfortunately, one extra inch of distance per d6 sacrificed just won't cut it for this standard "brick trick"; perhaps something more along these lines:

 

If the thrower has more than 20 STR in excess of what is needed to throw an object, then for each 5 STR excess beyond that 20, he may apply a x2 doubling modifier to distance in exchange for reducing damage done by 1d6.

[Kristopher]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The flaw with sacrificing damage done by throwing an object in order to throw it farther is that in order to throw something farther, you have to throw it faster, which means it hits harder and does more damage, to itself and/or to whatever it hits.

 

Such a rule, then, is entirely counterintuitive and counter to reality.

[Supreme]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing we could have in the TUB is and expansion on BODY and DEF stats and how they interact with various effects of strength and density increase. Thus, if your character has two levels of density increase he can't walk over ground that is less than X Def per hex without damaging it. An object that weighs X tons must have Y Def per hex to support its own weight. Etc.

[Vorsch]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A simple throwing chart which tells you how far you can throw something with your excess str over its weight, how fast it goes, how much damage it does. If im 1000x stonger i expect to be able to throw something more than a extra 20m.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing we could have in the TUB is and expansion on BODY and DEF stats and how they interact with various effects of strength and density increase. Thus' date=' if your character has two levels of density increase he can't walk over ground that is less than X Def per hex without damaging it. An object that weighs X tons must have Y Def per hex to support its own weight. Etc.[/quote'] Yes -- basically an expansion of the "Crushing Damage" rule on page 216 of TUV.

 

(And a correction -- it really should be the Casual STR based on the STR needed to lift the vehicle, not the full STR.)

[Enforcer84]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Personally, I want the various "Brick Archetypes" from the Orcish Bouncer, to Captain Marvel (Shazam) and Superman. Also some Brick-lites. Like WOnderwoman who has the strength and durability, but lacks the invulnerability.

[Intrope]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

More Brick types to consider discussing:

'Slab' types: weaker bricks that instead endure vast amounts of damage (high BODY types)--their was a thread on this subject here a while back.

Dense types, and issues (like how strong surfaces are) that arise when you weigh tons at human size.

[Earen]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing I'd like to see that I don't think has been captured yet are potential drawbacks of brick-ness, sources of disadvantages, or just general flavor. I remember in the new Superman origin story done by John Byrne (it had Krypton in the title ... other than that, I'm drawing a blank) done in the late eighties there was a scene where Clark Kent had to go into the bathroom and turn on a razor and use his heat vision and a special mirror to shave because earthly razors wouldn't be able to cut his hair. Rising Stars #1 (by JM Straczynski) had a person who was invulnerable but that meant that his sense of touch was nigh nonexistent.

 

Maybe a small section ...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A simple throwing chart which tells you how far you can throw something with your excess str over its weight' date=' how fast it goes, how much damage it does. If im 1000x stonger i expect to be able to throw something more than a extra 20m.[/quote']

 

I found a very interesting throwing table at: http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/HEROm.htm

 

It dates back to 1999 and requires some detailed math and still appears to fall short of the extreme throwing being discussed here. However, if you just incorporate a 'new' power or variation of 'superleap' used just as a 'non-combat' throwing distance doubler, extremely strong characters probably could launch baseballs (or footballs) into orbit (they should probably burn up from friction, but that's another story).

 

Some caution to GM's however. Think about how powerfull this would be in combat. If a Brick grabs any non-flying character he can take them out of the combat with one throw! If no flyer is available to catch the thrown character he might end up reaching terminal velocity before he lands!

 

The level of realism you are looking for in a Champions campaign starts to break down at these levels. The Hulk movie was pretty faithfull to the characters strength but when the character heaves a M1-Abrams what looked to be at least a quarter of a mile and the soldiers are shown getting out just like an old GI-Joe cartoon it tends to break the realism slide rule.

 

This balancing act of realism and playability with high power bricks is for each GM to decide for his game. If players are forced to spend extra points for throwing strength but not allowed to use it in combat due to campaign DC limits it will frustate players on what essentially is just a special effect of strength. Also, the character point levels necessary to make this argument worth having are going to be obscene (500+). I am willing to bet that the upcoming Galactic champions (Legion of Superheroes ?!) suppliment may deal with characters on this power level and higher.

[i3ullseye]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

First, nice look on the forums. Been away from the site for a long time now, so it all seems fresh and new to me.

 

For bricks.... non-brick bricks. What do I mean? Maybe a subconscious telekinetic that enhances your strength with telekinesis (ala Superboy). Maybe a gravity control usable on others and objects by touch. Many many variations can fill this, where you are not neccessarily strong, yet you fill the brick role.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing I'd like to see that I don't think has been captured yet are potential drawbacks of brick-ness, sources of disadvantages, or just general flavor. I remember in the new Superman origin story done by John Byrne (it had Krypton in the title ... other than that, I'm drawing a blank) done in the late eighties there was a scene where Clark Kent had to go into the bathroom and turn on a razor and use his heat vision and a special mirror to shave because earthly razors wouldn't be able to cut his hair. Rising Stars #1 (by JM Straczynski) had a person who was invulnerable but that meant that his sense of touch was nigh nonexistent.

 

Maybe a small section ...

 

Actually, Clark still has to do this. But mirrors are all bought Missle Deflection can reflect -1 light based powers

 

There are problems with this in that 1) Superman does not shoot laser beams from his eyes, in fact most writers actually prefer for the heat beams to be invisible SFX and 2) High energy attacks don't penetrate his aura of invulnerability any better than his own realitively (to Supes) low powered heat vision (it is his weakest attack power).

 

But it makes a good image so I live with it.

 

Hawksmoor

[BoneDaddy]

Re: THE ULTIMATE BRICK -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

BoneDaddy' date=' would you please point me to where that rule is mentioned?[/quote']

I've gone back to look for this rule, and I can't find it for the life of me. Was I making this up? Anyone?