The Mystic World

[Crimson-Hawk]

Re: The Mystic World

 

I just got both TMW and FHG2 today and I'm a happy camper.

 

I found the Kabbalistic inspiration for the structure of the Multiverse both unique and flexible, as far as gaming multiverses go. I can see Meriquai Falls fitting into the same Multiverse, but being a different Malkuth plane and having access to different Yetziratic planes.

 

As far as the artwork is concerned... I think I'll reserve judgement for when my artwork is better and thus I have a position from which to judge. While there were a couple of pieces I did a double-take on (page 22 has a picture of Nighthawk in full costume but without his facemask on? ), overall the artwork is much better than I can personally produce.

 

Of course, the offering of magical "crunchy bits" was nice, but it does leave me looking forward to TUM.

 

And the master villains offered were very nice. I do admit, after reading GC and seeing ol' Mechanon weighing on at over 4k, I was expecting Tyrannon to weigh in at least as much if not more. But then, I've learned since that advent of 5E that character points are really a good measure of a villain's threat margin. Istvatha V'han weighs in at a mere 716 CPs, but is one of the baddest villains in the Multiverse. While Tyrannon does clock in at slightly less than ol' Doc D character point-wise, Tyrannon could eat Doc D for lunch just on the way the points are spent... (Doc D would give the Conqueror indigestion on the way down, but Tyrannon would eat him for lunch anyway.) And that doesn't take into account the vast resources Tyrannon has... which is the same strength Istvatha V'han has.

 

I do find myself looking forward to both AA and TUM. Dean deserves a huge pat on the back on this piece!

[Mark Rand]

Re: The Mystic World

 

I got mine yesterday and think it's very well done. I can't wait for TUM and AA.

[Wanderer]

Re: The Mystic World

 

I just got both TMW and FHG2 today and I'm a happy camper.

 

And the master villains offered were very nice. I do admit, after reading GC and seeing ol' Mechanon weighing on at over 4k, I was expecting Tyrannon to weigh in at least as much if not more. But then, I've learned since that advent of 5E that character points are really a good measure of a villain's threat margin. Istvatha V'han weighs in at a mere 716 CPs, but is one of the baddest villains in the Multiverse. While Tyrannon does clock in at slightly less than ol' Doc D character point-wise, Tyrannon could eat Doc D for lunch just on the way the points are spent... (Doc D would give the Conqueror indigestion on the way down, but Tyrannon would eat him for lunch anyway.) And that doesn't take into account the vast resources Tyrannon has... which is the same strength Istvatha V'han has.

 

 

Approximately, how much big and tough, point-wise and power-wise, do you think a character (or group) should be, for an Hunted by Tyrannon to be viable ?

 

For Doc D., I gauge 700-1000 pts if the group is very good at covering each other's backs, otherwise 1000+.

 

(yes, 350-pts characters (Champions) having a collective Hunted by Mechanon is bad overkill; can we say squishing like bugs ?)

[FenrisUlf]

Re: The Mystic World

 

The Dragon isn't exactly new; it was detailed in the 4E Ultimate Super Mage' date=' and is updated and expanded, along with its minions, in [i']The Mystic World[/i]. It actually is tied to the Death Dragon - the DD is merely one aspect/avatar of The Dragon.

 

The Dragon is the Old Serpent, the primordial source of all evil on Earth. It's been symbolized in terrible serpentine/draconian forms in the myths of many cultures throughout history. Tiamat, Apep, Vritra, Ahriman, Satan; it's all of them and more.

 

As you might imagine, in the Mystic World this is one very heavy hitter.

 

Ooh, and that would fit in to perfectly with one character's background. His long-gone ancestor was both a werewolf and a dragonslayer; I had figured his 'dragon' was one of the Three Serpents (Beda or Xoruba), but this might better. Unless the Dragon was the being responsible for the Three Serpents...

 

The Champs Universe backstory just keeps getting better and better.

[steriaca]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Any chance of seing the stats for Kurn, of the Crowns of Kurn fame? I imagion the guy looking sorta like Dark Serpha, except larger, and with multipul heads. And great but limited magical powers.

 

And darn...I forgot about that Dragon (which I refered to as the Death Dragon, just because he was in the Watchers Of The Dragon). I guess he still has the same vulnerability to magical based martial arts attacks (or, at least the Death Dragon avatar version had the vulnerability)?

[Steve Long]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Any chance of seing the stats for Kurn, of the Crowns of Kurn fame? I imagion the guy looking sorta like Dark Serpha, except larger, and with multipul heads. And great but limited magical powers.

 

I'm assuming you mean Krim. There's no being in the setting named Kurn.

 

You can find some details about Krim in The Turakian Age. At this point I don't anticipate saying anything more or providing a character sheet... but you never know what may come down the pike.

[Agent X]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Guess I have to be a party pooper, but I despise the Kabbalistic notions in the Mystic World and I absolutely loathe direct references to Jehovah/Yahweh/Elohim/El as essentially some NPC Extradimensional Power. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only Christian who doesn't care for this approach. I'm also pretty sure there will be those who think I'm too thin-skinned or something to that approach. No one needs to worry. I'm not planning a book-burning.

 

But this is just crap. There is no reason to fiddle around with monotheistic religions like this. It's bound to offend scads of people and it's just not comic books. The Mystic World is inspired mainly from the Mystic Masters and Ultimate Super-Mage which were Champions supplements.

 

I don't know what to think. If they are going for comic book feel, I guess DOJ has decided to lean more toward Vertigo than Dr. Strange. Too bad, that's a niche genre and Ditkoesque magic tends to be a lot more plug and play.

 

I don't want stuff inspired by "real magic" and I certainly don't want my religion referenced as something that can be dealt with in an RPG and treated as just another religion with Jehovah referenced along with Ahura Mazda and Odin. It's just artless. Some in Marvel seem to have understood this and were able to tell the stories they wanted to tell with characters such as Eternity and the Living Tribunal. It's obvious what these characters are patterned after but Marvel has the sense to respect the religious convictions of millions of Americans by blurring the line.

 

Keep it up and I stop buying Hero Products. I'm probably not the only one who feels this way, although there may not be enough of us to discourage this ham-handed approach to superhero magic.

 

And you're not going to persuade me with "sign of the times" and "everyone else does it in the movies, etc." discussions.

[Crimson-Hawk]

Re: The Mystic World

 

And you're not going to persuade me with "sign of the times" and "everyone else does it in the movies' date=' etc." discussions.[/quote']

 

No, Agent X. You're not being a party pooper. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion and to freely express it.

 

Just as I am entitled to vehemently disagree with you.

 

And, no, I'm not going to use "sign of the times" or "everyone else does it in the movies" discussions to justify my opinion.

 

What I am going to use is the "I can at least seperate fantasy from reality" argument to justify my opinion.

 

[RANT]

Don't get me wrong. I don't intend to degrade your opinion, though I probably will despite myself. You've seen what you percieve to be your religion lowered to the level of a cobbled fictional piece.

 

But that's the whole point...

 

TMU is fictional. Fantasy. Not Real.

 

In real life, I suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder with symptoms of Social Phobia Disorder and Schizophrenia. Whenever I was chastised by teachers or classmates for not paying attention or going with the norm, I would fight the intense feelings of rejection by receding into my own little fantasy world. This was a pattern my school couldn't break because they could, seemingly would not, understand what my mental afflictions were. If a family friend had not introduced me to roleplaying games, thus giving me a creative outlet for me to focus my little fantasy world into a tangible focus so that I could start acknowledging the real world, I'd probably still be following that pattern. To a much lesser extent, I still do. But by turning my creative energies towards writing and roleplaying games some of the time, I can interact with the "normal" world to a fairly successful extent the rest of the time.

 

As I was going through this curative process, though, my mother did nurse the quiet fear that I'd slip completely into my little fantasy world and not come back out. She even showed me the Tom Hanks movie, Mazes and Monsters, to illustrate her fear to me. That movie scared the bejeebees out of me because I honestly did see myself in Tom Hanks' character.

 

And so I pushed myself constantly to remind myself that every roleplaying game sourcebook, every miniature, every fantasy novel, every comic book, every work of fiction was just that. Fiction. Not Real.

 

I guess that's had some less than pleasant side effects. I'm very uncomfortable at conventions of any kind, due to how seriously people take the subject matter. To me, roleplaying games, science fiction television shows, epic space fantasy movies, comic books, and whatnot are simply a fun form of entertainment and I find myself shuddering at the people live and breath the stuff as if it were their only reality. I am extremely scared to become like them because it would be too easy to slip and fall to the other side of their fanaticism.

 

But, at the same time, I find myself turned off by people who see their reality in works of fiction and are thusly offended. Roleplaying games are not real world references to real world subjects. They are fictional games to play and enjoy in order to escape reality for just a little while. It's the responsibility of the individual to ensure he or she does not get completely sucked into a game's "reality" like Tom Hanks' character was. It's his or her responsibility to seperate the game's fantasy from our reality.

 

While this probably is a very negative opinion for me to hold, I hold it anyway... Anyone who can't seperate their real world beliefs from the roleplaying games that they play are in far worse danger of losing themselves in the "reality" of the games than I am. And I'm not exactly a stable candidate myself.

 

I apologize to anyone who are offended by this rant. That's not my intent. Nor is it my intent to suppress opinions. Agent X is wholely intitled to hold his opinion.

 

I just wish people wouldn't get personally offended to such a level over works of fiction.

[/RANT]

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Personally, Im an atheist, but I really dont like seeing mention of any real world religion in the context of an RPG aside from a reference to real world relationships. For example, I wouldnt mind some one describing their purely fictional religion as "similar to Catholicism", but I don't want it to BE Catholicism. Or any other real world religion.

 

I dont mind if it is identical in every fashion, but it should be called something different, and be a distinct entity.

 

Just me.

 

I havent had time to pick up TMW yet, so Ill reserve judgement, but nominally I have to agree w/ Agent X on principle -- the treatment of real religions in a fictional environment is just too dicey to be worth it generally.

 

Im not one to get offended by something like that, but I am disinterested in it.

[Vorsch]

Re: The Mystic World

 

The only game that should reference real religions like christianity is In Nomine, but at least you know what your getting into with that.

 

The treatment of religions is going to be reflected by the GMs beliefs, a quicker way to lose friends i do not know of.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Doug, you're reading too much into it. Its a game, man. Don't let it bother you.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Agent X, I understand why you find this treatment of religion in The Mystic World to be offensive, and I'm not going to tell you you're wrong to feel this way. I will point out that TMW makes it clear that the Yahweh/Jehovah and other figures from the "living" religions who inhabit the Imaginal Realm of Elysium are not intended to be the true deities of any faith, but merely the products of the popular imagination of what those deities are like. For example, it points out the difference between the stern patriarchal Jehovah of Elysium and more philosophical conceptions of the God of Christianity.

 

Comic books, like other media, have a long tradition of depicting "actual" Judeo-Christian demons and angels as characters in their stories (DC much more so than Marvel), which in itself could be considered offensive to believers in other faiths. The conceit in TMW allows for such characters to be used in a Champions game without necessarily passing judgement on the validity of any faith, and makes for an approach consistent with using figures from the pantheons of "dead" faiths which is another comic staple.

 

I get the impression from your remarks that you might argue that the depiction of any deity from contemporary faiths is inappropriate in popular media, and if so I respect that position. I'm sorry that it marrs your enjoyment of Hero products; I hope for the sake of your own gaming pleasure that you'll be able to ignore that element or accept it in context.

[Agent X]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Crimson-Hawk, there is a big difference between what I'm offended by and the baseless accusations of Mazes and Monsters. I'm one of the guys who read The Dungeon Master to see what the basis for all the sensationalistic distortions about AD&D was at its core, a story about a 14 year old genius ignored by his parents and experimenting with sex, drugs, and alcohol with older college students, a 14 year old genius who changes his mind about committing suicide involving starvation and a Tolkienesque riddle, a 14 year old genius who is returned to his parents and then commits suicide by shooting himself in the bathroom, a suicide note that mentions only his poor relationship with his parents and nothing remotely connected to fantasy or AD&D specifically. What I'm offended by is obvious to anyone with a Faith that holds certain things Sacred. It has nothing to do with an inability to separate reality from role-playing.

 

Lord Liaden, I don't read those comic books, mainly from DC, that touch on my beliefs in that fashion. Heck, I'm uncomfortable with shows like Touched By an Angel and "Christian" books that deal with various interpretations of events some or all Christians believe have been prophesized. The saddest thing about this, as far as I'm concerned, is nothing was added to the game by taking the approach Dean Shomshack and Steve Long chose.

[ChuckB]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Wow. Havent gotten MW yet (I will), but I can see how this might offend people.

 

May want to tread carefully about this stuff in the future.

 

So much for my Passion Hero proposal

[Tclynch]

Re: The Mystic World

 

I gotta say...I read the book and really, it's just fiction. Not meant to offend anyone. I am a Buddhist and pretty much feel whatever you believe...great, I'm glad it works for you. I've seen instances of sourcebooks/ games using bits and pieces of buddhism and it has never entered my mind as being offensive. Interesting on the take, but never offensive.

[zornwil]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Ugh, since we're on the intersection with real-world religions (however we want to call it)...

 

well, I think that the literature/fiction is so strong in allusions to and usage of Christian mythology - including even rather seriously pious approaches such as Ostrander's Spectre - I think it's appropriate for HERO to address it in some fashion, and given the source material, from how I understand it I think they are addressing it appropriately.

 

That being said, I'm uncomfortable as well as it treads any closer, even though, like Killer Shrike, I'm not a believer (I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist, but I don't believe in Christian sort of God or anything quite as we "know" it, and am not sure even at that so...).

 

I really want to say I admire Crimson Hawk's commentary in his frank discussion of his background, and agree or disagree, he DID qualify his commentary as a "rant", and when people do that I try not to judge. I'd hope others would not, then again, that's a choice issue and by the same token I can't fault anyone who does.

 

Anyway, that's my two cents. This is not NGD and this is a gaming discussion and this is something I don't think requires laborious debate as Steve Long can read here and judge and that's all that really matters. This is a company board.

 

So let's be respectful and let's not turn this into a bigger debate. (Not that I perceive anyone is - yet).

[JJR]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Not to cut into agent x's tirade but there is nothing about the gods discussed in the mystic world that was not discussed in the ultimate super mage 10 years ago. This is old new and the tirade is 10 years too late.

 

Religion is handled in the champions universe in the same way it is handed in the comic book words: All religions are real and all religions are false. They are real because the manifestation of belief brings the various gods into existence. They are false do to the nature of celestials, lords of chaos/order, etc who are the real balance/creationist beings of the universe.

 

The few paragraphs which mention "real" religion are no more demeaning to religious groups those paragraphs talking about "pagan" religions are to other's. Some people just get bored and like to blow thing out of proportion. I recommend that everyone read the few paragraphs themselves and they will see there is no reason for the uproar here.

[BishopofB&W]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Some random thoughts…

 

I’ve never cared to delve into Kaballism. My perception of it was an esoteric thought exercise for mystic-minded, religiously observant Jews and, for Hollywood celebrities, a flavor-of-the-month fad. If TMW accurately reflects the basic concepts (not necessarily the details) of the Kaballah model, I’d say Kaballah is an attempt to reconcile medieval sorcery practices with the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim prohibitions against consorting with familiar spirits and making obeisance to pagan religions. That may sound harsh, but I’ve already said I know very little about it. My exposure to it comes from TMW and GURPS Cabal, so I have a highly stylized Reader’s Digest version of it.

 

I dusted off my White Wolf Book of Worlds for comparison. It’s less specific but seemed to be basically the same ideas. It seems to me that one of the basic premises for most, if not all, religions is that if they do not already do so, a god or gods can be persuaded to take an active interest in mortal affairs. IMO, a Creator, as presented in the above-mentioned books, is incapable of caring one way or another about an individual because it (a) operates on too large a scale (do you have any special affinity for the E. coli in your digestive tract?) or ( is the embodiment of creative principles and can’t be bothered with the details beyond opposing its opposite.

 

If all religions are both true and false in spite of the differences, then religions and their respective afterlives are a massive self-delusion humans have placed on themselves. Either angels and devils (and their equivalents in various faiths) are just part of the delusion or they are simply taking advantage of the situation for food (devils) or who knows what (angels). This in itself could be a starting point for several campaigns.

 

I understand the need to have some rationale if you want to have all the old pagan gods in your campaign, but I wouldn’t dare try to present this to a group of players because you never know if it’s going to hit a deeply buried nerve and cause disruption in the group. There are plenty of alternatives to this scenario, anyway.

 

That said, I found TMW to be well written with many useful ideas for incorporating magic in a superhero campaign that I anticipate using.

 

I saw this on a birthday card:

 

Q: Why do men like women dressed in leather?

A: Because they smell like a new car.

[Crimson-Hawk]

Re: The Mystic World

 

So let's be respectful and let's not turn this into a bigger debate. (Not that I perceive anyone is - yet).

 

Zornwil is right. This was primarily between Agent X and myself. Agent X made a point, I chose present an argument qualifying my disagreement, and Agent X has chosen to stand firm on his position despite my and others' arguments. That is his right. Nuff said. Let's move on.

 

What are people's opinions of the selection of Thaumaturgy spells presented in TMW?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Mystic World

 

I picked up TMW on the way home today, and after a quick scan I have to say that overall I dont like this product very much. It's not due to any religious references either. I just don't care for the take on the other dimesions, the content, or the writing style.

 

I particularly dont like the provided villains.

 

Though there were a couple of bits that were mildly interesting, the vast majority of it left me disinterested and dissapointed.

 

I didnt care for the writing style or the "vision" of the author. Based upon this book, I would be very hesitant to buy any further product produced by this author without a major browse and likely not even then.

 

I dont think Im going to incorporate any of the central ideas put forth in it into my CU implementation.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Agent X' date=' I understand why you find this treatment of religion in [i']The Mystic World[/i] to be offensive, and I'm not going to tell you you're wrong to feel this way. I will point out that TMW makes it clear that the Yahweh/Jehovah and other figures from the "living" religions who inhabit the Imaginal Realm of Elysium are not intended to be the true deities of any faith, but merely the products of the popular imagination of what those deities are like. For example, it points out the difference between the stern patriarchal Jehovah of Elysium and more philosophical conceptions of the God of Christianity.

 

Comic books, like other media, have a long tradition of depicting "actual" Judeo-Christian demons and angels as characters in their stories (DC much more so than Marvel), which in itself could be considered offensive to believers in other faiths. The conceit in TMW allows for such characters to be used in a Champions game without necessarily passing judgement on the validity of any faith, and makes for an approach consistent with using figures from the pantheons of "dead" faiths which is another comic staple.

 

I get the impression from your remarks that you might argue that the depiction of any deity from contemporary faiths is inappropriate in popular media, and if so I respect that position. I'm sorry that it marrs your enjoyment of Hero products; I hope for the sake of your own gaming pleasure that you'll be able to ignore that element or accept it in context.

 

Well, I SHOULD be getting the book tomorrow, so then I can see what the fuss is for myself.

 

That said, I will add what I hope are some non-inflammatory comments here.

 

First, the desc. of religions in TMW, from what I've heard here, doesn't sound all that offensive. It sounds far more fair to the Judeo-Christian faiths than anything I ever found in, say, White Wolf. Some of their authors seemed to take a childish glee to assaulting monotheistic religion, to the extent that it interefered with the work at hand. Some of it went way beyond presenting the setting, and suggested that everything the authors 'knew' about Christianity came from crappy New Age starduster books.

 

And with gods in the Legendary Realm -- if you get every different version of a deity, the members of the pantheons must be tripping over each other! Even the Greeks -- if you want to talk to Poseidon, do you speak to Poseidon Father of Horses, Poseidon Earthshaker, or Poseidon Lord of the Sea? Let alone such oddities as Zeus Lycaeus ('Wolfish Zeus') or the 4-5 different versions of Odin/Wodan/Wotan from Germanic myth. (But stay away from Hanga-Gud or the Lord of the Wild Hunt, or I can't be held responsible for the consequences.)

 

In case anyone is curious about another version of the Four Worlds, they should check out GURPS Cabal by the inimitable Kenneth Hite (mentioned above by another worthy gentleman). It also lists a lot involving modern/postmodern views on 'magic' and spirits, like mages who try summoning such modern 'gods' as Captain Crunch, Elvis (??? What do you summon Elvis for? Spare pork chops?), and Spider-man.

 

And I suppose the best way to handle mythic beings, or anything else in Champs or any other game setting is -- if you like it, use it. If not, then don't.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Given the amount of "worship" Elvis gets, he'd probably be a fairly powerful spirit/god/entity. Not sure what his domain would be, other than music.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Elvis does exist in one of the "imaginal realms" called Babylon, the City of Man - or rather, a recreation of him does. He's not a deity, but rather an idealized version of Elvis spawned by the imaginations of all the people who think about him. Several widely remembered "pop icons," once real or purely fictional, also dwell in Babylon, like John F. Kennedy, Mickey Mouse, Marilyn Monroe, Ronald McDonald or Sherlock Holmes.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Mystic World

 

And with gods in the Legendary Realm -- if you get every different version of a deity' date=' the members of the pantheons must be tripping over each other! Even the Greeks -- if you want to talk to Poseidon, do you speak to Poseidon Father of Horses, Poseidon Earthshaker, or Poseidon Lord of the Sea? Let alone such oddities as Zeus Lycaeus ('Wolfish Zeus') or the 4-5 different versions of Odin/Wodan/Wotan from Germanic myth. (But stay away from Hanga-Gud or the Lord of the Wild Hunt, or I can't be held responsible for the consequences.)[/quote']

 

The Mystic World seems to assume that the forms of the gods in the Land of Legends are based on what they were at the time they were most widely worshipped, when beliefs about them had to a large extent been synthesized into one form - for game purposes, as they are in the recorded stories about them that moderns have access to. Note that the gods themselves have no memories of any earlier versions of themselves; to them they have always been as they are now.

 

A god needs to have been worshipped by significant numbers of people for an extended period before it takes on life and form in the Land of Legends, though. Many gods who have largely been forgotten for millennia have ceased to exist altogether.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: The Mystic World

 

Given the amount of "worship" Elvis gets' date=' he'd probably be a fairly powerful spirit/god/entity. Not sure what his domain would be, other than music.[/quote']

 

I've incorporated some of that into the "mystic world" part of the GGU. Belief powers the gods, as they say, so somewhere out there is Elvis the God... but he's not Elvis Aaron Presley, January 8, 1935 - August 16, 1977, ascended to some spiritual plane. Rather, he's the "mythical elvis" that's been created out of the ether by the media and people's beliefs.

 

Lots of other celebrity "gods" out there as well. Sooner or later I'm having Marilyn Monroe show up in the Guardians campaign.