Champs Universe Question

[teh bunneh]

Since most of my books are currently somewhere between Indianapolis and here, I hope maybe someone can help me out with a quick question:

 

In the Champs Universe, does the US military (Army, Navy, Air Force, and/or Marines) have a current super-soldier program, and if so are there any successes (good guys or bad guys)? And also if so, which book(s) talk about them?

 

Thanx!

 

Bill.

[Hermit]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

You want Champions Universe 5th Ed.

 

The "All American" is the official Super Hero of America, and a product of Project Perseus. The failed Project Sunburst is briefly touched upon there as well, but only briefly. There was a brief mention of Projects Ascension and Achilles in WW2, both brought about by the Haynesville Project (focused for a time around Captain Patriot). The US govt is certainly not above using superhumans that come about by accident.

 

The Department of Defense in the CU has five superhumans:

Victory for the Air Force

Fusillade and Bulwark for the Army

Swordfish for the Navy

and some unknown super agent for the DIA.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

From what I remember from reading Champions Universe, the U.S. Military doesn't have a sucessful superhuman-soldier program, though it has had created a few in the past. The closest thing to a sucessful program is the Avenger Program used to make Silver Agengers for PRIMUS.

 

Of course, everyone's CU is different...

[Acroyear]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

..and I loves me the idea of an all "avenger program recipient" black ops/super spy team on the books as "janitorial services."

 

You don't really think they spend $4,000 on a toliet seat, do you?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

After being chastised by the military members of our HERO community who pointed out that the Generals don't run weapons programs I made three major companies that handled "Supersoldier" projects for the Pentagon.

 

Crucible Industries is the most prolific, has the best track record and has given birth to a number of independant heroes as well.

 

I can't remember the other two. They get very little busines, but one is a front for ARGENT

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

What I wanna know is why the military hasn't started using Cyberline. . .

[JJR]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

What I wanna know is why the military hasn't started using Cyberline. . .

Cyberline only works on a small percentage of people with compatable genes; my guess would be pre-activated mutants. I would also imagine that it is fairly expensive, and so can't just be mass-produced and issued to everyone to see how they react. I would also think there is a fairly large number of people who have negative reactions to cyberline, and then need to be "taken care of."

[ChuckB]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

After being chastised by the military members of our HERO community who pointed out that the Generals don't run weapons programs I made three major companies that handled "Supersoldier" projects for the Pentagon.

 

 

In the comics, generals always run these kinds of things. Contractors LOVE General Thunderbolt Ross and his consistant budget overruns.

[death tribble]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

..and I loves me the idea of an all "avenger program recipient" black ops/super spy team on the books as "janitorial services."

 

You don't really think they spend $4,000 on a toliet seat, do you?

If you see the film Buffalo Soldiers you'd believe it

[Agent X]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

There's also the guy from Ameriforce One who is still alive that's mentioned in the CU.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

Cyberline only works on a small percentage of people with compatable genes; my guess would be pre-activated mutants. I would also imagine that it is fairly expensive' date=' and so can't just be mass-produced and issued to everyone to see how they react. I would also think there is a fairly large number of people who have negative reactions to cyberline, and then need to be "taken care of."[/quote']

 

Which would explain why they don't make mass usage, just like PRIMUS doesn't.

 

What I'm talking about is picking soldiers who both have the skill and psychological credentials, and the genetic compatibility, and Cyberlining *them* into a super special ops division.

[JJR]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

What I'm talking about is picking soldiers who both have the skill and psychological credentials' date=' and the genetic compatibility, and Cyberlining *them* into a super special ops division.[/quote']

I understand but pick a number. Suppose the cyberline treatment costs $250,000. Now imagine you need 4 treatments a year to stay "buff." That is one million dollars a year to create and maintain a silver avenger. There is a reason why there are not too many of them in primus. Fielding a battalion of cyberline-enhanced solders would be expensive and would mean they need additional "downtime" due to needing additional treatments. Being a soldier would also put them at a high risk of being killed by weapon's fire; even stray weapon's fire. The army get the current soldiers for what? $1,500 a month and another $2,000 of equipment?

[DoctorItron]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

I understand but pick a number. Suppose the cyberline treatment costs $250' date='000. Now imagine you need 4 treatments a year to stay "buff." That is one million dollars a year to create and maintain a silver avenger. There is a reason why there are not too many of them in primus. Fielding a battalion of cyberline-enhanced solders would be expensive and would mean they need additional "downtime" due to needing additional treatments. Being a soldier would also put them at a high risk of being killed by weapon's fire; even stray weapon's fire. The army get the current soldiers for what? $1,500 a month and another $2,000 of equipment? [/quote']

 

(note: I'll try not to derail into an analysis of real-world military budgets, since I'm far from an expert.)

 

I strongly disagree. A military supersoldier program or an active superhero recruitment would be a must-have in a typical superhero world.

 

A single M-1 Abrams tank costs $4,300,000 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm) to replace. I wasn't able to find a breakdown of annual operating and support costs, but for arguments sake let's say the Army can have 100 soldiers for the cost of a single tank. Why are there any tanks if they're so expensive? There are some things that a tank can do that 1000's of men on foot could not (and, to be fair to the grunts, a single infantryman can do some things that a tank cannot do, such as searching the inside of a building).

 

The closest thing we have to "supersoldiers" in real life are special forces. Let's use a Navy SEAL as an example. Many regular soldiers can be trained and equipped for the cost of a single SEAL. Why does the military continue the SEAL program? Probably because a small SEAL team can do some things that a much larger forcer cannot. It would be much the same with cyberline-enhanced soldiers.

[humantorch101]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

Super Soldier programs are also required as they are so much fun! Many plot possibilities can be gleaned, especially from super soldier programs from less moral nations in the CU.

Maybe we will see something to this effect in Champions Worldwide.

 

rgds

Torch

[Blue]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

The main detrrants to rampant super-solidiers are...

• Cost
  
• Volatility of product
  
• Volatility of subject
  
• Rarity of elements in the substance
  
• Dangers of formulation/creation
  
• Existing international laws regarding human experimentaton and development of dangerous weapons (think the human equivalent of Nukes).
  
• Existing national laws regaring human experimentation
  
• Hysteria (Think Mutant Hysteria; As soon as one of these guys decides he doesn't want to do the 'right thing' then you've got a fearful public)

I'm sure there are more things. But it's all enough to make SuperSoldiers a rare and secret thing.

[DoctorItron]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

I agree supersoldiers should be rare - rarity is plausible as well as a necessary part of the standard superhero genre. But, if PRIMUS can make supersoldiers via a specific process, then the US military would and should be able to use the same process.

 

This is, of course, barring any specfic things in a campaign world that would prohibit the military from using PRIMUS technology. "Oh, sure, use the superhumans inside American cities, but don't give superhumans to the military because that would be unfair for our enemies."

[Blue]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

It's almost a reflection of what I had going on with Russia before the USSR collapsed.

 

What I would do here is have the army begin creating such things and have PRIMUS point out that it's their mandate to have superpowered folk, specifically by executive order # [blah blah blah] of the president. Then it would create a little governmental cold war and maybe even some combat.

 

Have PRIMUS rope in the heroes to assist because they are less known to the army.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

I understand but pick a number. Suppose the cyberline treatment costs $250' date='000. Now imagine you need 4 treatments a year to stay "buff." That is one million dollars a year to create and maintain a silver avenger. There is a reason why there are not too many of them in primus. Fielding a battalion of cyberline-enhanced solders would be expensive and would mean they need additional "downtime" due to needing additional treatments. Being a soldier would also put them at a high risk of being killed by weapon's fire; even stray weapon's fire. The army get the current soldiers for what? $1,500 a month and another $2,000 of equipment? [/quote']

 

I'm not talking about grunt privates. I'm talking about elite special ops soldiers and marines ( Force Recon, Navy SEALS, Green Berets ).

 

If PRIMUS can afford to Cyberline up super-cops ( essentially ), the military can afford to Cyberline up super-special ops soldiers.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

The main detrrants to rampant super-solidiers are...

• Cost
  
• Volatility of product
  
• Volatility of subject
  
• Rarity of elements in the substance
  
• Dangers of formulation/creation
  
• Existing international laws regarding human experimentaton and development of dangerous weapons (think the human equivalent of Nukes).
  
• Existing national laws regaring human experimentation
  
• Hysteria (Think Mutant Hysteria; As soon as one of these guys decides he doesn't want to do the 'right thing' then you've got a fearful public)

I'm sure there are more things. But it's all enough to make SuperSoldiers a rare and secret thing.

 

The problem is, all these objections are applicable in the case of PRIMUS, as well. If they don't stop PRIMUS from producing Silver/Golden Avengers, they shouldn't stop the military from doing so as well.

[JmOz]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

I'm not talking about grunt privates. I'm talking about elite special ops soldiers and marines ( Force Recon, Navy SEALS, Green Berets ).

 

If PRIMUS can afford to Cyberline up super-cops ( essentially ), the military can afford to Cyberline up super-special ops soldiers.

 

I agree, for that matter my world Russia did just that. The US prefered Power armor...

[caris]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

Ok, I checked, yes in the 5th ed there are Super-human Soldier projects still going on, which they differentiate from Super Soldier Projects, but we don’t seem to care here. The book doesn’t go into a great amount of detail, but does give an overview of the history. From that I overview I get the impression that there are multiple projects, each exploring different avenues: genetic manipulation, chemical treatments, radiation treatments, magic (at least I would hope so, but genre wise the US military has never been big on magic), and recruitment.

 

As for the reason why the military doesn’t use Cyberline, well first of all the use or non-use is purely speculation, it isn’t stated explicitly one way or the other. The way I see it a GM has a number of options open to them currently (all within cannon until the Primus book comes out or it is specifically stated elsewhere).

 

1. In the great comic book tradition ignore it. Pretty much just don’t worry about why the military doesn’t use the process. The military just doesn’t.

 

2. The military is using it, but it just isn’t something that is generally known. After the tragic death of the members of Ameriforce One in action, it was decided not to hype low level supers in action, but to instead integrate them into the existing elite/special forces programs. The assumption being that dividing up this individuals into teams primarily composed of non-enhanced soldiers would provide more efficient use of the resource, and reduce the over all loss risk than concentrating all of them into single units. These agents are not given too much more public exposures as the militaries “super soldiers†for moral and unit cohesion reasons.

 

3. Assume that some sort of inter-departmental issues between DoD and DoJ is responsible for the lack of the military’s use of Cyberline. This is a pretty cynical look at the government departments, as it assumes that the rivalry between them could get to the point where one would withhold such a valuable resource from the other on the basis of “turfâ€.

 

4. A less jaded approach (OK, personally, I think it is almost Pollyannaish) would be to say that one of the conditions that Dr. Alexander put on allowing the government to use his work, was that the process could not be used by the military and the government has honored the request.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

Now *those* are logical reasons for its apparent non-use ( well, except 1 ).

 

As an aside, the DoD does have their own super enhancement procedure that is publically known: the perseus procedure used to create the All-American(s). Not as hefty in the physical attributes as Cyberline, but it provides mental enhancements too. OTOH, I got the impression its also more expensive, more lengthy, and more incompatibility-prone than Cyberline.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

(note: I'll try not to derail into an analysis of real-world military budgets, since I'm far from an expert.)

 

I strongly disagree. A military supersoldier program or an active superhero recruitment would be a must-have in a typical superhero world.

 

A single M-1 Abrams tank costs $4,300,000 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm) to replace. I wasn't able to find a breakdown of annual operating and support costs, but for arguments sake let's say the Army can have 100 soldiers for the cost of a single tank. Why are there any tanks if they're so expensive? There are some things that a tank can do that 1000's of men on foot could not (and, to be fair to the grunts, a single infantryman can do some things that a tank cannot do, such as searching the inside of a building).

 

The closest thing we have to "supersoldiers" in real life are special forces. Let's use a Navy SEAL as an example. Many regular soldiers can be trained and equipped for the cost of a single SEAL. Why does the military continue the SEAL program? Probably because a small SEAL team can do some things that a much larger forcer cannot. It would be much the same with cyberline-enhanced soldiers.

 

Let me add another piece of information that supports this conclusion.

 

Back when I was in grad school (studying clinical psychology), I was highly recruited by the USAF. They offered a pretty sweet pay and benefits package, and I was tempted (but passed - I had other professional interests). They hire a lot of psych folk, for one simple reason - the fighter planes are quite nice, and pricey, but the people really capable of flying them at expert level are few and far between, and get there only after lots and lots of expensive and time-consuming training. Without such people, the planes are not much use at all, and if one of the pilots cracks for some reason, all that time/training money goes out the window - not to mention the increased risk of loss of that nice plane if the collapse occurs during combat. Compared to those prices, hiring a bunch of shrinks seems a bargain.

 

Much the same thing can be said about Special Forces, like DoctorItron noted above. Most people who try out for the special forces wash out. A few who pass the initial muster are disabled and killed each year - resulting in loss of a dedicated individual plus costs to the military - and it takes years of specialized training before special forces ops are considered to be fully ready for many duties. Yet, despite those expenses, special forces folk are considered well worth the investment.

 

Now imagine how much the military would want men and women who were faster, stronger, smarter and vastly more competent than the best-trained Rangers, Delta Force folks or SEALs - and how much they'd be willing to pay.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

Oh, and for the record, in my campaign world, the US Military has quite a few more superhuman operatives - and development programs - than what is noted in the official Champions Universe. They just keep this very hush-hush. They have generally found it more reliable to recruit superhumans (and do test potential recruits for mutant abilities) than to try to make superhumans, but they keep working on reliable processes for making their own.

 

The New Sentinels may soon be meeting some of these operatives, in fact.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Champs Universe Question

 

I agree that the simplest solution is that the reason the military doesn't use Cyberline is that it has its own enhancement program. In fact I would be inclined to think that Cyberline was invented by the DoJ in part because the military wasn't willing to share its own enhancement stuff with the DoJ.

 

An interesting question becomes what happens to retired soliders who've undergone the treatment?