The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

Hello HEROphiles, IMOHO The Harbringer of Justice of 4th Edition was highly over powered. I expect the 5th Edition Blue Moon Killer should be more balanced for HIS sub-genre. Especially as an ICONIC character. If the Cover Art for Dark Champions 5th Edition is an indication of the HIS evolution then I eagerly await Hudson City: The Urban Abyss.

 

Cheers

 

QM

[keithcurtis]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

CERTIE ANIMADVIERTERAS HIC INDICARE BELLUM

 

"Of course you know, this means war"?

 

Keith "The quotable B. Bunny" Curtis

[Silverbullet]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

I personally really like and liked the full power HoJ but I can see the point of a 250 point version. So, there in, why not have multiple versions of Harbinger? If, going with the concept of him being the “Iconic Character†of DC; have several versions for various power levels. The precedent was set in the last edition of the game with Doctor Destroyer. DD is certainly the Iconic Villain, and in “Classic Enemies†there were two versions for high and low powered games…

[JmOz]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

I know it would not happen but what would be cool is if Steve were to put in a relativly high powered (But not super human) version of HoJ in HC then as a DH article make a version set for 150-250 points (Kind of a this is where he began, this is where he ended version)

[Talon]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

There's that tenet of GMing which says "NPCs shouldn't overshadow the PCs". 4th Edition Harbinger definitely seemed very inclined to violate that rule -- he was prominent, opinionated, and involved in everything. If the PCs got involved in something important, it seemed like it would be very likely that Harbinger would show up and by his very nature steal the spotlight. Hopefully that won't be the case in 5th.

[Vondy]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

Harbringer = GM PC On Crack

 

/GM in this case can be replaced with author

[SuperPheemy]

In Defense of HoJ

 

Hey, the Harbinger is (or was) Steve's PC. According to the new Dark Champion intro, he was the vehcile through which Steve explored vigilantism. Fer cryin' out loud, Steve's first real gaming project was Dark Champions, let the man feed his ego some and lay off his PC!

 

Looking at the writeup from DC1, I'm not seeing too much outrageous. The VPP is an 80 point pool, which is the most extreme aspect of the character, and I've seen worse abuses on fewer points in my time. He's got 252 points invested in skills, mostly in 2 and 3 point expenditures, some of which don't make sense UNTIL I remember that he's a long-term PC, then 2 points spent in Dimensional Engineering looks more like XP than design.

 

He's got an over-the-top CV, but again, I can see where that gets developed because HoJ was running with four-color-superheroes throughout his carreer and he's got really low defenses otherwise, 9 rPD and 9 rED.

 

He belongs in Dark Champions because he was the test bed for Dark Champions. So quit yer whining already.

[Korvar]

Re: In Defense of HoJ

 

My only gripe was him being in the example character section. There should have been a 250-pointer in there, as an example to people making their first DC character, instead of a "what you can be after a zillion XP" character. A 250 point version and an experienced version could have been fun...

 

I, personally, didn't like his "...and then I killed them all" style. But then, I don't run that kind of game.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

Harbinger is fine as an "Epitome" type character, but not an "Iconic" character IMO. He serves as an example of the outer limits of success for a character in the genre, not a normal, standard, or appropriate for PC status character.

 

It doesnt have to be one or the other.

 

As long as some examples of peers/iconic proxies for the PCs are provided as well, then having HoJ around as the genre heavy is fine in my book.

 

But he should definitely be a background element, not a de facto protagonist.

[arcady]

Re: In Defense of HoJ

 

Hey' date=' the Harbinger is (or was) Steve's PC. According to the new Dark Champion intro, he was the vehcile through which Steve explored vigilantism. Fer cryin' out loud, Steve's first real gaming project was Dark Champions, let the man feed his ego some and lay off his PC![/quote']This is precisely why this PC needs to be slapped down.

 

A published book is no space for a PC, be it a player's, a GM's, or especially an authors.

 

It's the place for NPCs.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: In Defense of HoJ

 

This is precisely why this PC needs to be slapped down.

 

A published book is no space for a PC, be it a player's, a GM's, or especially an authors.

 

It's the place for NPCs.

One campaign's PC is another campaign's NPC.

 

The difference between a well designed PC and a well designed NPC is that the PC has a Player running them as "their own" and an NPC doesn't.

[Eosin]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

HOJ = Batman = Good ----> very high point total.

 

Maybe we should have a poll to see how many like the HOJ?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

I like him just fine. The issue is that he's not a very good example of a beginning PC.

[pinecone]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

I'm also one who never had a problem with HOJ...even with a cosmic gun pool....after all I posted the Duffle bag of guns Multi-power...

[csyphrett]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

What about the other three vigilantes in the original edition? I believe that the Sandman (blanking on the name) is built on the traditional 250 points. I think that section was the difference of point values that could be used to build a street focused character.

CES

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

Without dragging my copy out, the only other sample PCs I remember were Copperhead and Scarecrow. Copperhead seemed more like a regular style Champions character than a street level Dark Champ to me, and Scarecrow was built for a heroic campaign.

[csyphrett]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

You're right, CO. Looking it up, the Sandman, Dark Angel, and others came with later books. Sorry about that.

CES

[Metaphysician]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

No such problem in DC 5e. All the sample heroes are built on 200 points. The villains are all built on 300-370 points.

 

Though, frankly, Fenris would be a scary opponent for even a normal 350 point Champions game, albeit through his resources, rather than his fighting skills.

[Vondy]

Re: In Defense of HoJ

 

He belongs in Dark Champions because he was the test bed for Dark Champions. So quit yer whining already.

The expression of an opinion with which you don not concur does not constitute whining.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

No, but there has been alot of whining, here and elsewhere, about him.

 

That said, he belongs in the Dark Champions *setting*, he doesn't necessarily belong in the first book.

[Eosin]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

While it is still early - I believe the poll I started shows that the overwhelming majority of us prefer him to be an uber-bada$$ and that he belongs in HC: UA

[SuperPheemy]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

Harbringer = GM PC On Crack

 

/GM in this case can be replaced with author

 

The expression of an opinion with which you don not concur does not constitute whining.

Yesterday 08:46 PM

 

True, true. But the above quote does constitute whining, or bitching, or just general snarkiness. Please, use whatever similar adjective is most palatable to your sensibilities.

[wylodmayer]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

In Re: Harbinger of Justice in original Dark Champions book

 

1) On the one hand, HoJ may be built on a lot of points, but he is built from a Dark Champions kind of perspective; he has only 8 PD & ED, 9 pts of Armor, 40 STUN and a 6 SPD. True, his combat values are truly terrifying, but most of his points go toward broadening his abilities, not deepening them. I always thought of HoJ as a Batman like character. Not the "Batman as God" type mentioned earlier - realize that our buddy the Harbinger would get squished in a fight with real supervillains. His mediocre (from a superhero-level p.o.v.) STUN and measly defenses would swiftly retire him to the sidellines in a fight against someone like Firewing or Dr. Destroyer, regardless of his point levels. On the other hand, HoJ is the kind of character who can successfully do all those things that it would normally take a whole team of characters to do; he has the range of skills, contacts, and gear necessary to investigate every aspect of an international criminal gang like Card Shark or the Master of Crime's organization. He's the James Bond of Dark Champions characters; no James can't bounce bullets or survive a nuclear explosion, but he can keep penetrating SPECTRE's plots and moping the floor with their best operatives until he gets right to the top and drops Blofeld down a smokestack.

 

2) On the other hand, including HoJ in the Dark Champions book without some better context for him was an odd choice. I recall spending many hours trying to figure out "wtf?" in regards to this character. Had it been more explicitly stated that he is sort of the goal that Dark Champions characters can hope to achieve someday - the lone crimefighter who can literally take on the an entire organized crime syndicate by himself - it would have made things better

 

3) In the final analysis, he, like the Dark Champions book itself, was Steve's baby, started from humble beginnings and *played* up to the disgusting levels with which we are all familiar. Steve did something very important for superhero gaming. The early nineties were the era of the anti-hero, the vigilante, but up to that point, no such character in any comic universe - however popular - had received any special or even adequate treatment in games that were slanted mechanically toward his more four-color counterparts. Around the same time as Dark Champions, Mayfair published a Batman-centric version of their DC Heroes game, but there was nothing different about the game except the packaging - no concession had been made to the idea that certain fundamental differences needed to be appreciated to properly "game" the vigilante-type hero. Dark Champions changed all that, and so successfully that the term became a generially used one, regardless of game system. Steve's book tapped into the new face (at that time) of superhero comics, and gave us the tools to go into those worlds. That's pretty impressive, considering that this industry really doesn't change that much. Sure, new systems spring up all the time, but their technical innovation, when they are worth anything at all, rarely accomplish anything more than providing another way to simulate the same basic genre conventions. Dark Champions ranks, in terms of innovation, with the other creation of the early nineties that tapped into the zeitgeist, the feeling of "anti-hero" - Vampire. Both took gaming to places it had never (successfully) been before, and opened up new dimensions for roleplaying. If there is greater level of maturity, a more nuanced approach, to games now, I attribute it directly to these two releases, which entered the main bastions of moral clarity (heroes vs villains and people vs monsters) and turned everything upside down. If Dark Champions (4th) seems too "light" now, then that is in part proof of the impact it had. For the man who brought us this... I can forgive a little self-indulgence in publishing the character who, for him, started it all.

 

4) All that having been said, I have never allowed the HoJ in any of my games as an NPC. I might, in a superhero game, but I haven't yet.

 

wylodmayer

[Vondy]

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

 

True' date=' true. But the above quote [b']does[/b] constitute whining, or bitching, or just general snarkiness. Please, use whatever similar adjective is most palatable to your sensibilities.

I do not choose to acquiesce to you characterization. Those words are my honest assessment. They constitute frank criticism. The Harbringer was clearly a player character. You could tell just by looking at the write-up. He was grossly overpowered for the genre. The character needed a major edit before being put into a book and he missed the iconic mark. I'm sure Steve, who did a wonderful job the first Dark Champions and has produced some great materials since then will fix that in this version, but it doesn't change what has come before. What's more, the fact that you want to frame opinions you don't care for in the worst possible light doesn't make doing so acceptable. So I'll repeat myself for your edification: 4th Ed. Harbringer = Author's PC On Crack.