WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

[paigeoliver]

I often see people struggling to convert some effect, or some monster, or some idea from another game into hero,and going through a ton of effort to build something really complicated because EVERYTHING has to fit in with the existing powers, advantages, and disadvantages.

 

Why?

 

I understand it if it is for a PC, but if it is an NPC, an enemy, a monster, or anything other than a player, well, then we don't really need to go to all that trouble.

 

Hero seems to avoid making any judgement outside the set rules, which is because the rules are so broad they basically cover everything. But I still say no reason why you can't simply say "This monster is immune to non-magical weapons", characters killed by "Von Straud" arise as Vampires on the next night", or "Dr. Zap can instantly travel through the electrical grid and appear anywhere."

 

I know, some of the fun is figuring up how to do it by the rules, but sometimes that results in an effect that doesn't quite work correctly under the rules.

 

Btw, my "by the rules" fix for immunity to a certain form of attack is like an insane regeneration (like 50 body regeneration), to "immune" attack forms. Or the desolid method, inherent.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I have no problem with hand-waving things as a GM.

 

For minor encounters, I'll make note of important stats and basic abilities, but won't bother to write them up/stat them out. If they end up being used several times, I generally will.

 

Some villains will have powers/gadgets I won't stat out. Razzl Dazzl, my Mr. Mtzylplyk (sp) rip-off, has no points - points are irrelevant, trying to beat him in combat is literally pointless. Similarly, I won't stat out the SuperMegaUberPlotDevice gadget that will only be around one issue.

 

I'll let players use their powers in creative ways that aren't necessarily on the sheet, esp. in non-combat, esp. if it helps move the game along.

 

Never let a set of rules get in the way of a more entertaining story.

[OddHat]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

Well, hand-waving ("Look, he just can") does happen, and I don't cry about it if it adds to the story. Overcomplicated builds are frustrating to deal with. In my experience, mechanical adaptations from another game system are never as good as just taking the concept and building the creature or character from scratch.

 

Part of sticking to the rules is to keep the game fair, especially for less experienced GMs. It's very easy to get so caught up with the fun of your cool NPC that you let him stomp all over the PCs. A player who has his face rubbed in the fact that your NPC is not subject to the rules may feel cheated; "letting" him win does not help. Hero is an RPG, but there are war-gaming elements to it, and for many players those war-gaming aspects of the game are part of the fun. Overtly blowing off the rules in favor of the story you want to tell is going to make some players look for a new GM.

 

I know that the above is not what you're suggesting, but it's my reason for sticking to the rules as much as I can.

 

Also, I don't know of much that I can't simulate well enough with Hero, though I may have to use an optional rule to do it.

[TheEmerged]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I can only answer for myself. I have no problem with hand-waiving -- but my inner game geek, given time, will try to find a way to do it in-system.

 

The key phrase there is given time. If I'm prepping for a session my usual two-to-four weeks in advance? It's getting worked out, probably whether I want to or not If I have to come up with something on the fly during a session? Break out the Hand of Waiving +5.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

Over in the "rules or story" thread I commented that I view the rules as the laws of physics that rule the interaction of players and the universe. I prefer, even for NPCs, to build out the powers, so that I know I am following those laws as well.

It's a point of pride that I don't have the villians use/do anything a character couldn't concieveably use/do on the same points. Whether they should is another matter (ie the nasty mind control or the mental transform to mindslave).

[John T]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

Generally, I'm with Lord Mhoram and The Emerged here; I don't sweat the details if they're not critical, though I may (and probably will) build any power or effect that shows up in my games, sometimes purely out of curiosity and sometimes because I'd like to know what it would take to counter the effect through power use (Dispel, Transform, etc.), rather than imaginative PC actions.

 

An example of my in-game notation for something like this might be:

10d6RKA/AP/Pen/MegaAE(enough)/NR

Otherwise known as "a bomb/thingie/McGuffin capable of destroying the entire surface of a planet."

 

John T

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I'm remarkably anal-retentive, so I get to answer on the 'pro' side.

 

The rules are there to provide us all with a framework, a common set of boundaries, so that we're all playing the same game at the same time. I've had bad experiences with house rules ... not because they were poorly concieved, but the gamemaster didn't tell us what they were beforehand. We weren't playing the same game.

 

Now, if it's truly irrelevant ... the effect is too big or just too whacked out for HERO to cover ... then I don't worry about it. If I decide that the Thunder Bomb is powerful enough to kill everything in a mile radius, then it does that. Plot devices aren't statted. I do the same thing with gods in my fantasy games ... they have no stats. If a god decides you die, you die, been nice knowing you. Stats don't matter because these things can't truly be defeated, per se ... thwarted, but not defeated.

 

On the other hand, just a 'powerful' character should be statted, including any bizarre abilities. I confess, as a player, 'he just can' is a very unsatisfying answer. On the other hand, 'because he's a god/cosmic entity/Elder of the Universe' works better, because that's something my character isn't, probably can't ever be, and therefore can't try to purchase the power construct anyway.

 

I confess, due to recent events, I have an overwhelming fear of arbitrary decisions; I like to have a solid rule backing me, or something on paper that shows exactly what a villain's stats are, so if a player asks me why something PC A did worked while the same thing PC B did didn't, I can show them afterwards. "See, Black Shield has +5 DCV against ranged attacks, representing his deflector field. That's why your arrows were unable to hit with low rolls, even though Brick Boy was beating him senseless up close."

 

 

Example ...

In a D&D game, PC A attacks a monster (an Ogre, I think), and rolls a total of 25, hitting it. The very same round, before the Ogre has a chance to act, PC B rolls to hit, getting a 30, and missed. The DM tried to blame it on a number of things, none of which made any sense. "He had a defending weapon ..." "That doesn't vary by opponent, it's just a general increase." "Well, he was looking at you ..." "There is no facing in D&D, he was fully aware of everybody the entire time." The fact of the matter is, he was just trying to screw over the player of PC B, with whom he has had a few minor altercations with, both in-character and out-of-character in many games. Oh, and he was supposedly keeping track of over a dozen opponent's stats in his head, with no notes being taken at all, not even marking off damage taken. It was a screw job.

 

I want to do everything in my power to NOT BE LIKE THAT.

[Rhys]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

While I tend to be a seat of the pants GM, (I do a tremendous amount of work on background and NPCs before ever starting, then often run sessions basically free form), I also tend to agree with Crosshair Collie. I mostly run low-level, really low-level(75/50), FH with relatively little magic, but if I'm going to have an NPC do it, it better be explainable to the PCs with more than a "because he can."

 

This is probably the result of playing a lot of high point Champions games with a couple of rules lawyers while in college. Since our regular GM was basically a math genius, he always had everything worked out, but that only shortened the arguments, it didn't end them.

 

Of course, I never convert something from another system. This isn't arrogance, I don't know enough about any other systems to try to do it. I always leave that to the Stats and Math majors in my acquaintance. I also don't run anything from pre-generated modules or worlds. It's more work to take something someone else has written and try to make it work for me than to just start from scratch. If I am trying to duplicate something, it's from something I've read (Stephen Brust, Glen Cook, or others), not another system.

[Old Man]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

 

The rules are there to provide us all with a framework, a common set of boundaries, so that we're all playing the same game at the same time. I've had bad experiences with house rules ... not because they were poorly concieved, but the gamemaster didn't tell us what they were beforehand. We weren't playing the same game.

 

I've run into that before and it was...disappointing. Especially when character creation and concept were dependant on it.

 

On the other hand, just a 'powerful' character should be statted, including any bizarre abilities. I confess, as a player, 'he just can' is a very unsatisfying answer. On the other hand, 'because he's a god/cosmic entity/Elder of the Universe' works better, because that's something my character isn't, probably can't ever be, and therefore can't try to purchase the power construct anyway.

 

 

Yeah, I've had my players ask me after a session, "Dang, how many points was that guy/thing built on??" I like being able to tell them.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

Not *everything* needs to be statted up. Things well within the plot device range ( well enough into it as to make mechanics moot for the situation ), or common sense stuff ( like towels ), don't need mechanics. The former follow whatever scenario rules are applicable ( "If MegaEvil assembles the Triad of Power, he shall be invincible and capable of rewriting time!!" ), the latter do whatever common sense dictates ( "Its a towel, it dries up water" ).

 

However, anything else should be statted. The whole reason you play a role playing *game*, as opposed to merely collaborative storytelling, is so that things don't happen just because someone says so; instead, there is an in-character and in-mechanic detail for whatever is happening, allowing for the world to work in an at least semi-consistent manner.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I've been playing and (mostly) running RPGs for well over 23 years now, and during that time I've learned to wing it pretty well, but that said, I still tend to stat things out if they are going to be significant to the story or have the potential to interact with the characters in a major way. In DnD, I don't generally need to know the Constitution score of the Duke who's game role is mostly to hire the PCs or pass out information. I certainly don't need to know the Strength of every tavern wench, shop keeper or stableboy. But I do need to make decisions about how tough the bugbears are or how much damage a given trap might do, and it's better to make those decisions ahead of time, to help with the consistency and flow of the game.

 

Similarly, in CHAMPIONS, I don't need to know how many character points a long-retired golden age hero used to have if his only role in the current game is to act as an advisor or to pass along an important clue, but I do probably need to know the stats on the villains the PCs are fighting this week - especially if the villains are to become an ongoing part of the campaign. If a guy has a 23 DEX one episode and an 18 the next, that isn't very consistent. I don't write up one-hit mooks and low-level underlings of the sort Daredevil pounds by the dozen when he goes out looking for leads among the hoods, but I do need to know how the size and Advantages on a master villain's RKA if the plan is for the villains to fight him this week.

 

Beyond that, I really have an aesthetic appreciation for a well-done character design. Maybe that's geeky, but it's there. I have never bothered figuring out how a Ford Taurus and a Dodge Intrepid would differ using the HERO vehicle rules, and I've certainly never statted out something like an electron microscope, but I always know what speciic science skills a given mad scientist has - and whether or not he has access to an electron microscope!

[keithcurtis]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

My favorite response to this is: "Silly GM, points are for players."

 

Seriously though, I have run many campaigns that have lasted years without bothering to write up a full character sheet for an npc. I know the system well enough to know what skills and abilities they are likely to have and go from there. I'll have combat stats noted, in case they get into a fight, and maybe one or two primary skills, but the rest is just common sense.

 

Likewise, I won't stat out objects, plot devices or magic items, other than to note their DEF/BOD if needed. They do what they do. If I had to stat them out, I'd kepp pumping in points until it matched my vision anyway, so why go to all that work?

 

Keith "Trix Hero" Curtis

 

 

PS. For Champions, I'll do full sheets. Champions is far more of a math contest than the heroic levels. In fact, making character sheets is almost the point of Champions. For me, at least.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I often see people struggling to convert some effect, or some monster, or some idea from another game into hero,and going through a ton of effort to build something really complicated because EVERYTHING has to fit in with the existing powers, advantages, and disadvantages.

 

Why?

 

I understand it if it is for a PC, but if it is an NPC, an enemy, a monster, or anything other than a player, well, then we don't really need to go to all that trouble.

 

Hero seems to avoid making any judgement outside the set rules, which is because the rules are so broad they basically cover everything. But I still say no reason why you can't simply say "This monster is immune to non-magical weapons", characters killed by "Von Straud" arise as Vampires on the next night", or "Dr. Zap can instantly travel through the electrical grid and appear anywhere."

 

For the most part, I agree with you. I would stat out all of these that you mentioned, or anything else that a character would use as a regular ability, but for things like the fire extinguisher mentioned on the other thread, a towel, or similar things, wing it.

[Reneshat]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I also agree, in fact, here is the next step, why not let some of your PCs do things that aren't in the rules. I can see some great, umm, story, yeah story potential in giving a mage the ability to be immune to all non-magical attacks. Forget insane regeneration, immune I tell you, immune. So, anyway, that's where I stand. Oh yeah, and I want to give my pet hologram the ability to possess people too....

[Blue Jogger]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I'm torn on this issue. In the comic books/tv series, it is quite common for the hero do to something incredibly spiffy (because it was needed for the plot or just because) and then in the next issue, it is competely forgotten.

 

I remember a Teen Titan episode where Robin says, "Raven, let's go home." She assumes her incredible spiffy shadowy Raven form which engulfs everybody in the room and she flies off presumely through wall since they were in an enclosed area.

 

Ok, teleport, extra mass, and handwave the fact that they weren't "touching" since they were out of combat. But, that's such a spiffy power, why don't they always travel that way? I can't imagine Raven saying, "Er, Robin, I only have enough energy to make it about 5 blocks carrying everyone and then we're walking." (Although since they don't usually travel by Raven express, I assume something like this stops them.)

 

Anybody who plays Champions know why they don't enter that way, they would be at 1/2 DCV.

 

In another issue, they drive in Cyborg's car, the T-car. Why? Because that's the plot, Cyborg's car stolen.

 

In another issue, they use the T-jet. In some, Robin has a motorcycle.

 

And so forth. Ok, these are relatively cheap group vehicles. Maybe Raven has a really big ultra slot for group teleport that has some limitation that it is only used occasionally and probably only short distances.

 

In some episodes, they just run/fly to the scene. Across New York city... ok... Now there's a big handwave.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I'm in the Story over Points camp on most things. However, like many, I tend to stat out things eventually.

 

Why? The rules are there for a reason, to play within them. The Points allow for you to construct something and know how it will affect the PCs who have spent certain points in certain areas for effect and other reasons. If you hand wave everything you may accidentally bypass a level of effect a PC was bringing their stat to - someone with 12rPD on their character sheet should be immune to most standard guns out there, if you forget that it might irritate the PC who went to that level for that reason perhaps.

 

On the other hand, the story will be advanced it doesn't much matter in the long run. Supposedly everyone is at the table for the story and that should take precedence over stats.

 

Point Limits are for players, but Points are for everyone, the GM just gets an unlimited pile to pull from.

 

If I didn't want to stat anything I'd switch to the Amber System and adopt it to whatever genre I wanted.

[zornwil]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I agree with the basic premise of Paige's post. I will occasionally stat something out of interest or just to get a sense of how costly it is and from that get some extra notion if perhaps I'm erring too much one way or another.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

Addendum to my previous post: It's also nice to have stats for things in case the PCs happen to have access to a Drain/Transfer/Dispel/Suppress that can affect it. Especially when dealing with that much power, knowing just how much you leeched off can be a lifesaver.

 

The superhero genre does tend to have characters and situations which just come out of nowhere, surprise everybody, then are never seen again, ranging from the 'Raven-port' listed below to Hercules towing Manhattan Island back into place. Character abilities vary widely, based on the requirements of plot (see: Superman forgetting his super-speed). That works fine in a comic book, where one person (or perhaps a small team) have total control over the characters and their fates and decisions. However, a GM must, in essence, share control of the creative process with his players.

 

Game Balance figures into this a *lot*. I would go so far as to say, for myself, that Game Balance is the most important aspect of a game, well beyond Realism at any rate. A former GM of mine decided to rewrite the Multiple Move-By rule so they accumulated, rather than getting a lump, added-up penalty (first at -2, second at -4, third at -6 instead of all at -6) because it 'made more sense'. It also made the group's speedster the most frightening thing I've ever seen. Does his way make more sense? Probably. Was it balanced? I'm inclined to say no.

 

For better or ill, we aren't actually writing a comic book. We are playing a game, and that means rules. We can use the rules to generate a fair simulation of the comic book superhero genre, but there will always be some things that don't quite fit because they are allowances to the requirements of a game. Stories are cool, and games are playable ... but the question becomes, are you wanting to play a story or tell a game?

 

I've been in situations where the GM was telling the game ... he had an extremely (pardon me, but I can't think of a better word) masturbatory NPC leading the party around, and we were all basically his sidekicks at best (DNPCs at worst). We all just basically watched while the GM told us all the great things his character did while we sat back and attempted things which would, invariably, fail.

 

I'd rather play a story. But that's just my two scents.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

Another point ...

 

Sometimes we stat everything out because it's a fun challenge in a hobby we enjoy.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

Another note in passing...

 

Some folks are using the terms "points" and "stats" or "statting out" almost interchangeably. Being unconcerned about the points is one thing... being unconcerned about the stats is something completely different.

 

As a GM, I don't care how many points something costs. (That is to say, I don't look at my master villain and think, "Rats, I have to cut something down here because he's 10 points over." )

 

However, I generally do try to define what that things do in game mechanics terms. I don't care how many points the Uber-Bomb costs, but I do want to know how many dice Killing the Uber-Bomb is, how big an area the Explosion extends to, etc.

 

The exception to this is for truly massive plot devices. For example, the PCs in my Champions game recently unwittingly unleashed the Anti-Christ into the campaign world. I'm not going to attempt to figure out exactly how enormously grotesquely gigantic his Cosmic Variable Power Pool is... suffice it to say that they will have to find a way to defeat him that does not involve beating him up.

[lazarus]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I see two parts of this:

 

1) setting-specific rules modifications. In some settings, some things just don't apply, or apply differently. Magic in the Turakian Age is /3, or the Shadowrun-esque linking of Magic and Cyberware. These mostly serve as ways to properly get builds appropriate for the setting.

 

2) GMs statting things out. Even if I don't have a sheet for something when game time hits, I'll want to get a sheet for a recurring villain, vehicle, effect, etc. at some point, just to know what it does. That doesn't mean that I'll be building them on the same point limits as the characters, though...

 

Laz

[KA.]

Re: Why does everything have to be by the rules?

 

I fall into the "Fairness" camp.

I do not stat out things like ballpoint pens and steam irons, and I do not worry about how many points something "costs" when I am building a villain.

I also do not stat out things that are absolutely Plot Devices, like The Doomsday Bomb. If I say that The Doomsday Bomb will destroy the Earth if it goes off, then it will.

But I use points to build NPC's and Villains, because I don't think anything else is fair.

It is one thing to say that a Villain is built on more points than you, so he can afford things that you cannot.

It is another to say that Villains can do things that you can't do, no matter how many points you have.

I, as a player, would find this obnoxious.

I also feel that I owe it to my players to stat things out.

Otherwise, I have too much control over things, and take on too much responsibility.

Example: Mindbender has the power to make people do whatever he says, by broadcasting orders to them.

I don't build it, I just say that is how it works.

Jenny, the Player's DNPC Girlfriend is under Mindbender's control.

In order to distract the Player's Character, Mindbender has ordered Jenny to commit suicide.

Player: Okay, I am going to try to talk Jenny out of it. I am going to use a Presence Attack to try to force her into making a Breakout Roll.

GM: Uhhh. This isn't really Mind Control. There are no Breakout Rolls, she is just going to try to kill herself.

Player: Okay, He must be using some type of Mental Power to issue the orders to her. I am going to try to use my Variable Power Pool to make a gadget that will boost her Ego Defense.

GM: That won't work either. This isn't really a "mental" power.

Player: Okay, then he must be broadcasting the orders over some type of radio wave. I am going to build a gadget to create Darkness to block the Radio group so that he can't find her mind to issue the orders.

GM: Well, it isn't really a radio wave. That won't do it.

 

Now, so far this is not too far out of bounds. Like I said, there are a few things that "just work" like the Doomsday Bomb. So it may be that the GM just wanted to avoid the most obvious solutions to this problem.

 

But, the problem is this. The GM who has not actually statted out how the power works can quickly end up "painted into a corner". He has denied all the Player's ideas for how to get around the power, but his aim is not to kill the Player's DNPC.

Which means now the responsibility is on him to come up with something that the Player can do, to keep his DNPC alive.

 

And of course he can't just "hand" the solution to the player:

GM: You could try splashing water on her to snap her out of it.

Player: ??????

 

If you stat things out in the first place, you know what will work and what won't. I find that a lot less work than making all that up on the fly.

 

I have no problem with "winging it" when the need arises, but if I am planning on having a Villain or NPC be part of my campaign, I think I owe it to my players to stat them out.

 

KA.

[austenandrews]

Re: WHy does everything have to be by the rules?

 

My favorite response to this is: "Silly GM, points are for players."

 

Seriously though, I have run many campaigns that have lasted years without bothering to write up a full character sheet for an npc. I know the system well enough to know what skills and abilities they are likely to have and go from there. I'll have combat stats noted, in case they get into a fight, and maybe one or two primary skills, but the rest is just common sense.

 

Likewise, I won't stat out objects, plot devices or magic items, other than to note their DEF/BOD if needed. They do what they do. If I had to stat them out, I'd kepp pumping in points until it matched my vision anyway, so why go to all that work?

I'm in total agreement here. I almost never stat things fully when I'm running a game. Why bother? I'll just fudge it as I go anyway, to make the story interesting.

 

Though I do admit, it's a fun exercise to figure out how to squash the rules to accomodate weird ideas. More of an exercise in logic than gaming, really.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Why does everything have to be by the rules?

 

Jenny, the Player's DNPC Girlfriend is under Mindbender's control.

In order to distract the Player's Character, Mindbender has ordered Jenny to commit suicide.

...

Player: Okay, then he must be broadcasting the orders over some type of radio wave. I am going to build a gadget to create Darkness to block the Radio group so that he can't find her mind to issue the orders.

GM: Well, it isn't really a radio wave. That won't do it.

 

Dude, I would have totally given Jenny a Superkiss before building a gadget to block radio sense.

[KA.]

Re: Why does everything have to be by the rules?

 

Dude' date=' I would have totally given Jenny a Superkiss before building a gadget to block radio sense. [/quote']

Always worth a try.

 

KA.