Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

[Trebuchet]

This situation came up in our game yesterday, and I wanted to solicit opinions from others.

 

One of our characters was hit with an Entangle during a fight with hostile aliens. When her Phase came she Desolidified, passed through the Entangle, resolidified, and decked the alien. I wasn't real comfortable with this, but couldn't really come up with an official rule which which would prohibit this sequence of events since turning Powers on or off is a 0 Phase action. So I allowed it, since only an Attack action ends a Phase but movement or merely turning on/off a Power does not.

 

My question for the rules gurus is: Is this legal, or did I and my co-GMs/players just miss something in the rules?

[freakboy6117]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

seems ok to me

 

fits with source trhe classic desolids in comics do this sort of thing all the time. martian man hunter vision and shadow cat oftengo desolid to get around defenses or obstructiosn then smack someone about.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

This situation came up in our game yesterday' date=' and I wanted to solicit opinions from others.One of our characters was hit with an Entangle during a fight with hostile aliens. When her Phase came she Desolidified, passed through the Entangle, [i']re[/i]solidified, and decked the alien. I wasn't real comfortable with this, but couldn't really come up with an official rule which which would prohibit this sequence of events since turning Powers on or off is a 0 Phase action. So I allowed it, since only an Attack action ends a Phase but movement or merely turning on/off a Power does not.My question for the rules gurus is: Is this legal, or did I and my co-GMs/players just miss something in the rules?

You missed something. You can only turn a power on OR off during the same phase, but not both. She could Desolidify and pass through the Entangle, but not become solid on the same phase. See 5ER 103 and 363 (note bottom of column 1).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

You missed something. You can only turn a power on OR off during the same phase' date=' but not both. She could Desolidify and pass through the Entangle, but not become solid on the same phase. See 5ER 103 and 363[/quote']Thank you; we missed that.

 

PS: Love your avatar. I've still got the official T-shirt of that Nightmare painting. Yes, I used to play Magic. I'm so ashamed.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

Thank you; we missed that.PS: Love your avatar. I've still got the official T-shirt of that Nightmare painting. Yes' date=' I used to play Magic. I'm so ashamed. [/quote']Don't be. I still do play Magic. More frequently than HERO games (gasp!) simply because of the level of interest in my area. It's a good intellectual challenge (although I will heartily admit the quality of people you tend to meet is...somewhat less than perfect).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Don't be. I still do play Magic. More frequently than HERO games (gasp!) simply because of the level of interest in my area. It's a good intellectual challenge (although I will heartily admit the quality of people you tend to meet is...somewhat less than perfect).

I enjoyed Magic (Still have one of my old decks somewhere, even though I sold my collection for about $600), but I stopped mostly because of the "somewhat less than perfect" persons you mentioned seemed to be all the ones I was meeting. (You have a true gift for understatement.)

 

Nowadays if I play any deck-building games it's Steve Jackson's Illuminati: New World Order, and I've been thinking of trying out Munchkin and it's spinoffs.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

I enjoyed Magic (Still have one of my old decks somewhere, even though I sold my collection for about $600), but I stopped mostly because of the "somewhat less than perfect" persons you mentioned seemed to be all the ones I was meeting. (You have a true gift for understatement.)

 

Nowadays if I play any deck-building games it's Steve Jackson's Illuminati: New World Order, and I've been thinking of trying out Munchkin and it's spinoffs.

 

Pity. We've got a good magic community here. It has fair bit of overlap with RP too. Geeks unite!

 

But yeah, there will always be less than perfects.

[Christougher]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Nowadays if I play any deck-building games it's Steve Jackson's Illuminati: New World Order' date=' and I've been thinking of trying out [i']Munchkin[/i] and it's spinoffs.

 

Munchkin's pretty good. Ask Blackjack, he'll say the same.

[fbdaury]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

edited due to me not paying attention

[BNakagawa]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Munchkin's pretty good. Ask Blackjack' date=' he'll say the same.[/quote']

 

Ackpht. Can't stand Munchkin.

 

It's rather like a clever joke that takes about an hour to tell.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Ackpht. Can't stand Munchkin.

 

It's rather like a clever joke that takes about an hour to tell.

You clearly enjoy more sophisticated humor than our group does. We're pretty easily amused.

[CBikle]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Being able to go desolid to solid (or vice-versa) in the middle of your phase

might not be a bad idea for an advantage (+1/2 ?) or at least a power-skill use.

 

I think it can already be done through a complicated use of Trigger and Suppress.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Being able to go desolid to solid (or vice-versa) in the middle of your phase

might not be a bad idea for an advantage (+1/2 ?) or at least a power-skill use.

 

I think it can already be done through a complicated use of Trigger and Suppress.

 

Just use Teleport instead, and call it solid to desolid and back.

[Kristopher]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Just use Teleport instead' date=' and call it solid to desolid and back.[/quote']

 

Unfortunately, Entangles with a "cannot be teleported out of" advantage would then stop the power.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Not if the Teleport was bought with sufficient levels of Armor Piercing.

[Arkham]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Unfortunately' date=' Entangles with a "cannot be teleported out of" advantage would then stop the power.[/quote']

 

Would most entangles with 'Cannot be escaped with teleport' have a special effect that going desolid should be able to overcome?

 

Should going 'desolid' overcome having your nerves short-circuited by electricity, or by having your neurons overloaded by a poison gas, or by being stuck in a temporal warp?

 

What kind of 'cannot be escaped with teleport' entangles _should_ this special effect of desolid be allowed to bypass?

[SirViss]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Or the GM allows it to happen because of SFX...

 

Of course, if it was an Entangle that should affect Desolidified targets, then the Teleport solution with the "Turning Desolid" SFX would also be affected.

 

Turn about is fairplay.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

You missed something. You can only turn a power on OR off during the same phase, but not both. She could Desolidify and pass through the Entangle, but not become solid on the same phase. See 5ER 103 and 363 (note bottom of column 1).

 

I would like to note that in the spirit of heroic adventure, I might allow it despite the rule, depending on the circumstances.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

I would like to note that in the spirit of heroic adventure' date=' I might allow it despite the rule, depending on the circumstances.[/quote']I went ahead and permitted it at the time, primarily because the only reason the PC used Desolidification was so she could get in an attack that Phase and her casual STR of 35 wasn't quite enough to break the Entangle. So it's not like she couldn't have escaped the Entangle anyway even without Desolidification.

 

I've pointed out the relevant text to the player, and he's cool with it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

I believe the rule was written to keep players from, for example, turning on the desolidification when being attacked and then turning it off and attacking their foe. It shouldn't be used as cheap defenses. I see no problem with a player using it to get out of an entangle and still attack though. Desolidification isn't a cheap power and the player should get some benefit from it. As has already been mentioned a 1" teleport will accomplish the same thing for only 2 points.

 

It's very in genre for Jonn Jonzz to slide through a wall and grab someone. Under the rules all a player could ever do is go through a wall and then need to wait for another phase to be able to turn sold and do the attack. The rule is in place to prevent munchkining, not to stop valid genre conventions, IMO.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

I believe the rule was written to keep players from, for example, turning on the desolidification when being attacked and then turning it off and attacking their foe. It shouldn't be used as cheap defenses. I see no problem with a player using it to get out of an entangle and still attack though. Desolidification isn't a cheap power and the player should get some benefit from it. As has already been mentioned a 1" teleport will accomplish the same thing for only 2 points.

 

It's very in genre for Jonn Jonzz to slide through a wall and grab someone. Under the rules all a player could ever do is go through a wall and then need to wait for another phase to be able to turn sold and do the attack. The rule is in place to prevent munchkining, not to stop valid genre conventions, IMO.

I agree, which is why I didn't put up a big stink when it happened. But before I alter the rules, I like to be what they actually actually are. It's not like it was a major abuse.

 

And heck, 20 minutes later a teammate used Change Environment to destroy a Xenovore battleship. As long as it's in genre and everyone is having a good time, where's the harm?

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

I believe the rule was written to keep players from, for example, turning on the desolidification when being attacked and then turning it off and attacking their foe. It shouldn't be used as cheap defenses. I see no problem with a player using it to get out of an entangle and still attack though. Desolidification isn't a cheap power and the player should get some benefit from it. As has already been mentioned a 1" teleport will accomplish the same thing for only 2 points.

 

It's very in genre for Jonn Jonzz to slide through a wall and grab someone. Under the rules all a player could ever do is go through a wall and then need to wait for another phase to be able to turn sold and do the attack. The rule is in place to prevent munchkining, not to stop valid genre conventions, IMO.

 

Actually, what J'onn would do is this:

 

Phase 12: J'onn floats up to the wall and turns on his Desolid.

Phase 2: J'onn passes through the wall, drops the Desolid, and attacks.

 

That lets you do exactly what J'onn does without Desolid becoming too unbalancing. Basically, you have to set up the move.

[MitchellS]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

Actually, what J'onn would do is this:

 

Phase 12: J'onn floats up to the wall and turns on his Desolid.

Phase 2: J'onn passes through the wall, drops the Desolid, and attacks.

 

That lets you do exactly what J'onn does without Desolid becoming too unbalancing. Basically, you have to set up the move.

And wastes two phases when he could have casual strength punched through the wall and done it all in one. Paying points for a power should actually grant some benefit, IMO. Desolidification is a stop sign power and so each instance needs to be weighed by the GM. I would not have any problem if a player used the sited example or the JJ example in my game. I don't consider it to be too unbalancing.

[steriaca]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

 

And wastes two phases when he could have casual strength punched through the wall and done it all in one.

 

That is true, but sometimes it would danger the lives of others if some walls were ruptured (like, say, the skin wall of a space station).

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Entangle, Desolidification, and the Quest for Truth

And wastes two phases when he could have casual strength punched through the wall and done it all in one. Paying points for a power should actually grant some benefit' date=' IMO. Desolidification is a stop sign power and so each instance needs to be weighed by the GM. I would not have any problem if a player used the sited example or the JJ example in my game. I don't consider it to be too unbalancing.[/quote']Unless, of course the Desolidifying character doesn't have the STR to punch through the wall. Or doesn't want to damage it, for reasons previously noted.