Guest Champsguy Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Why, oh why? I flip through Hudson City, only to find that the Harbinger of Justice has been neutered! Where is the 40 Dex guy I remembered? Now I see he has a lower Dex than Nightduck??? No!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! 30 if I recall correctly, with Lightening Reflexes. They did cut him back a bit, but he's still hellacious. Something like 1234 point or there about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Champsguy Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! He had 30 Dex, with +10 Dex "only for combat". Yeah, the new one is still pretty tough, but it's just not the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! I'll be honest with you here...I always thought Dark Champions (at least the last version) was supposed to be about street-level superheroes and the grey areas of the law in which they live -- and I never could figure out what a "teleporting guns to me from my arsenal" monstrosity with nearly as many active points as Tyrannon the Conqueror (slight exaggeration here) was doing as an example vigilante for a street-level campaign book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! Huh. I guess this is one of those "you will never please everyone" type characters. On the one hand you have the Champsguys of the world who liked their 40 Dex with a VPP uber-bad Blue-Moon Killers. On the other you have the Dr. Anomalys of the world who don't want gods in their street level games. From what I saw, the current version is a sort of a compramise. The new Harbringer is still over 1000 points, but has lost his Teleporting Gun VPP. Now he just has a cinematic super-skill VPP, which may be more genre but is no less dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! Huh. I guess this is one of those "you will never please everyone" type characters. On the one hand you have the Champsguys of the world who liked their 40 Dex with a VPP uber-bad Blue-Moon Killers. On the other you have the Dr. Anomalys of the world who don't want gods in their street level games. From what I saw, the current version is a sort of a compramise. The new Harbringer is still over 1000 points, but has lost his Teleporting Gun VPP. Now he just has a cinematic super-skill VPP, which may be more genre but is no less dangerous. I think he was supposed to still be a "Champions" chracter in the original. They didn't want a genre book so much as a "Subgenre" look at the darker side. DOJ feels that DC is significantly different from Champions to warrant it's own "rules" and the Harbinger in Hudson City is much closer to Steve's original. Ofcourse I am pulling this from memory and may have it completely wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! Those crazy CLOWNs. Exploding whoopee-cushions, who would have imagined? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! My understanding is that Steve's vision for the original Dark Champions was much more "realistic" (like the current Dark Champions and Hudson City), but the Powers-That-Be at the time wanted it to have more crossover appeal for non-Dark Champions games, resulting in the inclusion of supers stuff and the (frankly rather ridiculous... sorry, Steve) version of Harbinger who had Limitations like "Not When In Far-Flung Dimensions" on his weapons, despite ostensibly being a "street-level" character, and having no means of reaching other dimensions! I have to assume the current Harbinger is closer to the original vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! Neutered?? Have you tried calcing his damage stats?? Between his Ranged Martial Arts, Ranged Deadly Blow, and custom firearms, he can haul out something like a 7d6 RKA. Not to mention, throw in the +8 TSLs, and he can basically get free headshots. Frankly, I'd rather he trade out the Deadly Blow and TSLs for more base characteristics, especially a higher Speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! Neutered?? Have you tried calcing his damage stats?? Between his Ranged Martial Arts, Ranged Deadly Blow, and custom firearms, he can haul out something like a 7d6 RKA. Not to mention, throw in the +8 TSLs, and he can basically get free headshots. Frankly, I'd rather he trade out the Deadly Blow and TSLs for more base characteristics, especially a higher Speed. Yeah, this is what we looked at - he can put an 6d6 RKA +2 STUNX, AF to the head at will. Even many Bricks should be fearful of that much damage (94 STUN per hit). Plus I did not look to see what he could pull in from his new VPP. Once again, I think he is off the mark but hey, Hero is the only game out there that you can say - "Dude, the official write up is wrong, here is how it should be done." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBikle Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! I'll be honest with you here...I always thought Dark Champions (at least the last version) was supposed to be about street-level superheroes and the grey areas of the law in which they live -- and I never could figure out what a "teleporting guns to me from my arsenal" monstrosity with nearly as many active points as Tyrannon the Conqueror (slight exaggeration here) was doing as an example vigilante for a street-level campaign book. In my campaign I incorporated that into his background. Essentially he was a vigilante from the (near ?) future who came back in time to kill goons who would have an impact on our future (his present). You'll also notice that the 4th ed. Harbinger also had some unusual skills(dimensional engineering 16-). Another theory is that he's a vigilante from an alternate Earth who came here after successfully killing off all the criminals on his home Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! I've never actually run a Dark Champions game, but my thought on the Harbringer was that he should be less of a character and more of a force of nature. I was heavily influence by the Crusader/Crusade morality thread from Underworld Enemies. The notion that killing was one thing, but being a hero was another. Crusade never understood that but the Harbringer did, and in his own horrible way had gone beyond it. In my mind, the 4th Ed Harbringer was someone the heroes should be scared to death of. Not because he might come after them, but because he would come at all. He was what would come if things got out of control. If there was any way other than wholesale bloodshead, the PCs had better find it quickly becase if they didn't the Harbringer would come. He might let the PCs play it thier own way, but only if they got results. If they failed, he would come like a storm. The carnage would be almost as horrible as the carnage he was preventing, only the targets would change. He would purge the streets and end the terror, but all those "shade of grey" NPCs the heros had come to respect would be wiped away along with the most horrid deviants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! My understanding is that Steve's vision for the original Dark Champions was much more "realistic" (like the current Dark Champions and Hudson City), but the Powers-That-Be at the time wanted it to have more crossover appeal for non-Dark Champions games, resulting in the inclusion of supers stuff and the (frankly rather ridiculous... sorry, Steve) version of Harbinger who had Limitations like "Not When In Far-Flung Dimensions" on his weapons, despite ostensibly being a "street-level" character, and having no means of reaching other dimensions! I have to assume the current Harbinger is closer to the original vision. That's what I tried to say ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! Yeah' date=' this is what we looked at - he can put an 6d6 RKA +2 STUNX, AF to the head at will. Even many Bricks should be fearful of that much damage (94 STUN per hit). Plus I did not look to see what he could pull in from his new VPP. Once again, I think he is off the mark but hey, Hero is the only game out there that you can say - "Dude, the official write up is wrong, here is how it should be done."[/quote'] With a 40 PRE (8d6) +5d6 for reputation he has a 13d6 PRE Attack off the get go. Add to this a violent action (with that 6d6 RKA) and put in another 2d6 of PRE attack. So he just has to show-up do a 15d6 PRE attack and most bricks will simply give up rather than fight. For my campaign I'll lower his PRE to 25 and probably lower the reputation dice by 1 or 2. Lower his INT some, and probably boost his EGO some. I notice he is running around in 10 DEF armor which is a bit much for our street level games as well. And that 6d6 RKA has got to drop down by at least a couple of dice. I am still eagerly awaiting the HD Pack for this book though. It is much easer to modifiy existing characters than to input all the data from scratch. Any word on when the HD Pack might be available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! Ben has the necessary info; it's just a matter of finding the time to check it all, get it into the store, etc. Thanx to his recent oral surgery he's moving a little more slowly right at the time when a lot of extra work has come his way, but don't worry, he'll get to it as soon as he can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Keneton Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! |Champsguy: From one power gamer to another, the HOJ is not neuterd at all. I have a writeup that Steve sent me early under the promise (as of yet unfullfilled) that I would run a game for him. The synergystic combination of his zen riflery, his PSL' s, his Guns from hell, and his naked power advantages make him in many ways far tougher than the old HBG. In fact I'd take this version over Firewing in a laugher. Steve: I'm a 16 coming at your head with a rapid autofire sweep! Bob: Eeeech!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! You could always get him some neuticles . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trencher Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! Those crazy CLOWNs. Exploding whoopee-cushions' date=' who would have imagined?[/quote'] What do you mean there is no write up of clown in hudson city is there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Ben Ben has the necessary info; it's just a matter of finding the time to check it all' date=' get it into the store, etc. Thanx to his recent oral surgery he's moving a little more slowly right at the time when a lot of extra work has come his way, but don't worry, he'll get to it as soon as he can. [/quote']Don't know if Ben will see this but I hope you heal quickly and painlessly! ::shudders at oral surgery:: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skaramine Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Re: Ben I seriously have to get the new book with the new Harbinger... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! In my campaign I incorporated that into his background. Essentially he was a vigilante from the (near ?) future who came back in time to kill goons who would have an impact on our future (his present). You'll also notice that the 4th ed. Harbinger also had some unusual skills(dimensional engineering 16-). Another theory is that he's a vigilante from an alternate Earth who came here after successfully killing off all the criminals on his home Earth. having him as an almost sane Judge death type might be a good way to handle him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! having him as an almost sane Judge death type might be a good way to handle him. I like that option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted March 19, 2005 Report Share Posted March 19, 2005 Re: Harbinger got neutered! Why' date=' oh why? I flip through Hudson City, only to find that the Harbinger of Justice has been neutered! Where is the 40 Dex guy I remembered? Now I see he has a lower Dex than Nightduck??? No!!!!![/quote'] He wasn't neutered enough. Harbinger is ridiculously overblown, and were I ever inclined to add him to a camapign of mine (which I'm not, really), I'd do extensive surgery on him beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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