Nudity and Sex in comics books

[Red Knight]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Nudity and Sex come up in many discussions and from what I have read, most of my thoughts have already been put down.

 

I used t read Gen 13 but I got tired of the juvenile BS that the comic was being filed with. A lot of Image titles seem to be hormone driven.

Show some skin = kids buy the book.

Marvel and DC are no angels in this either. I think it has a lot to do with the "oneupmenship" that the media has with itself. Video Games, Comics, Movies, TV.. they all want to bring the next higher shock value to the front. I am 32 y/o and I still enjoy comics and gaming... BUT I don't enjoy the gratutious use of nudity and sexuality to sell books. It was mentioned about Nick Fury in bed with a large amount of hookers all passed out. I saw that issue. I looked at it and smiled. I thought at the time that it was cheesy. Not in character.

The Warmachine/Scarlet Witch incident is another example, where Warmachine thinking to himself "I wonder what she looks like in the shower" would have gotten the same message across. But I refer back to ...Show some skin = kids buy the book.

 

Until we realize that sex for sex sake is NOT the best route we will have this problem and I think that it falls to the writers to craft stories around sex for sex sake.

I remember an interview with Alec Baldwin, when he was in the Shadow, where he said that sexual tension can be more interesting than sex itself. Hinting at nudity can tease while full nudity is a quick fix. Personally I think he is right. In the movie the Shadow, there is sexual tension and it is not until the end that there is even a kiss. Didn't ruin the movie...

[CourtFool]

More Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Until we realize that sex for sex sake is NOT the best route we will have this problem and I think that it falls to the writers to craft stories around sex for sex sake.

 

Typo? Do you mean that it is up to the writers to stop feeding us gratuitous sex? Never going to happen. As long as sex sells people will use it.

 

I am not saying the gratuitous sex is right or wrong. I am just saying that the media is in it for profit. If something works, they are going to exploit it. If it does not work, they will move on to something that does. It falls to consumers to say what they want with their dollars (sorry non-Americans, discriminating for effect).

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I think it works with newer characters' date=' ones that don't have a history. I would NOT approve of, say, Captain America going commando, because some characters are just to Silver Age, too iconic, to ever do that to.[/quote']Do you think Speedy was too Golden Age to become a junkie?

[Mortuorum`]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

This is a classic case of confusing medium and genre, something clueless politicions are going all the time. "Comics are for kids; they shouldn't have nudity!". "Videogames are for kids; they shouldn't have violence!". "RPGs are for kids; they shouldn't contain non-Christian references to religion!"

 

It's all nonsense, of course. Nobody (except a few extremist nutcases) says that books or film shouldn't contain any adult material. Yet other media (the kinds that don't appeal the mainstream America) are somehow supposed to be different from "traditional" media, despite the fact that their primary demographic is beyond the age of majority.

[BcAugust]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I'll point out something. I've noticed, in my personal life, that fewer and fewer females are picking up American comics. A large portion of that is, well, the treatment of nudity and sex in such.

 

Now, to clarify. Cheesecake is almost expected. But how much is too much? I like to think I'm not a prude(as anyone who's heard or spoke to me about my character Cyrande can attest.), but the covers on Marville turned my guts. If you are mainly using sexuality like that to sell, you're tuning out half your potential audience. In fact, with that and some Max treatments I've seen, I haven't picked up Marvel comics in two years, when I used to spend ten bucks a week just on them. And DC lost me picking up 400 dollars worth of trades with this Preus thing.

 

Now, I'd be a hypocrite to say that RPGs aren't different. Heck, Hero actually has some of the least sexuality I've seen in setting. And my own games tend to have a large amount of such. Though I'd argue that it may be a bit different there, as your "audience" can give you immediate feedback and you(presumed) talked out boundaries before the game started.

 

*shrugs* Well, that was sort of pointless meandering. I guess it comes down to, you need to know and talk to your group before you bring these up in game. In "other" meduims... well, you choose what you buy, and if something you dislike comes along, don't buy it and tell people why you won't buy it. Maybe that will help you get something better.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

That's an interesting observation. Because you know what geek-culture thing women ARE buying? Manga. In droves.

 

The market for manga, no matter the target audience, is currently females. About 60% of those who buy manga are women or girls.

 

Manga contains nudity, often graphic and full-frontal. It contains violence on a scope that's made my stomach clench on some occasions. There are stories that leave these elements out, but Japanese culture has different standards for what's okay for a younger audience. Therefore you can have a manga aimed at 12- to 16-year-olds, but it may well have someone shot to death and clothes torn off the young heroine.

 

But women read these manga.

 

So I don't think it's that women object to the objectifying, so much. I think most women are moving away from comic books because they've discovered a whole world of books written with them in mind. In general, females are more interested in relationships and personal interactions, and many manga titles revolve around those aspects. And in general, comic books are more interested in the action, and may throw in relationships as side plots.

 

I think a few comics have come out in the past year or so that focus more on characters and interactions than plot. And I'm glad to see that shift. But if I pick up a comic and the whole thing is explosions and blood, I'm not getting into that one.

 

Personally, sex and nudity don't bother me, and can really add to a story, when used right. And a lot of artists are very good at depicting nudity, or just enough of it to intrigue the reader. But if that's all the story has going for it, it's not worth my time.

[ShinDangaioh]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Not to mention no decompression of the storyline in manga.

 

 

It comes down to what you expect out of a comic/manga.

 

If picked up the Evangelion manga, I don't expect to read Barney

 

By the same token, when I pick up Superman, I don't expect to read Legend of the Overfiend(Good-bye Preus. BTW after that story arc, the person who wrote it is off of Superman)

 

 

Running round and round anymore.

[BcAugust]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Oh, yes, which is why I said American comics. However, I would say objectifying is the main difference. Maybe it's because Manga tends to be more story/personal based, while, like you said, American comics are more action with romance on the side. But it feels different, in most manga I've read. Nudity and/or sexuality is much more natural and in character in most manga. Heck, even "fan service" in most manga is more a light hearted wink and nudge sort of thing.

 

Perhaps part of it is that we do "know" most of the american comic book characters from before, or that we know their "universes", but most american comics seem more forced with the nudity, or over the top with sexual situations. Putting the Bizzare Breasts material aside, it may simply be because most American comics aren't written to make the transition. I'll point out the recent Squadron Supreme mini as a decent example of where nudity makes sense, and doesn't feel forced, whereas the Superman/Batman arc with Supergirl did.

 

That said, I'll point out that romance and sexual tension has been handled very well in some American comics. Heck, one of the main reasons I like Catwoman is the always there awareness with Batman. And there's been quite a few scenes with Lois and Superman that can raise blood pressure. And there's been far more that I'm likely forgetting.

 

That's an interesting observation. Because you know what geek-culture thing women ARE buying? Manga. In droves.

 

The market for manga, no matter the target audience, is currently females. About 60% of those who buy manga are women or girls.

 

Manga contains nudity, often graphic and full-frontal. It contains violence on a scope that's made my stomach clench on some occasions. There are stories that leave these elements out, but Japanese culture has different standards for what's okay for a younger audience. Therefore you can have a manga aimed at 12- to 16-year-olds, but it may well have someone shot to death and clothes torn off the young heroine.

 

But women read these manga.

 

So I don't think it's that women object to the objectifying, so much. I think most women are moving away from comic books because they've discovered a whole world of books written with them in mind. In general, females are more interested in relationships and personal interactions, and many manga titles revolve around those aspects. And in general, comic books are more interested in the action, and may throw in relationships as side plots.

 

I think a few comics have come out in the past year or so that focus more on characters and interactions than plot. And I'm glad to see that shift. But if I pick up a comic and the whole thing is explosions and blood, I'm not getting into that one.

 

Personally, sex and nudity don't bother me, and can really add to a story, when used right. And a lot of artists are very good at depicting nudity, or just enough of it to intrigue the reader. But if that's all the story has going for it, it's not worth my time.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Personally?

 

I tend to keep them distinct. It's like the Doujinshi (sp?) market for Japanese Video games.

 

I don't want to read Superman having Lois and Lana Lang in a wild threesome in the pages of Man of Steel. I just don't Superman doesn't do that.

 

But a one shot, adult title completely disconnected from DC's Official Universe? Heck yeah.

 

I don't want to see Juggernaut and She Hulk in bed in the pages of X-Men. It seems wrong. Not to mention illogical (why would she do that after he's tried to kill her or or friends numerous times?) But give me a parody series and sure, I'd read the Hulk making his way through the Marvel Universe's Girls Locker Room.

[nexus]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I only read one of the Marvel Max titles (Supreme Power), but I think its been handling the nudity fairly well.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I don't want to see Juggernaut and She Hulk in bed in the pages of X-Men. It seems wrong. Not to mention illogical (why would she do that after he's tried to kill her or or friends numerous times?)

That bugged the heck out of me in the last She-Hulk. Heroes and Villains shouldn't get busy together.

 

Keith "not in this man's comics!" Curtis

[David Blue]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

That bugged the heck out of me in the last She-Hulk. Heroes and Villains shouldn't get busy together.

 

Keith "not in this man's comics!" Curtis

There are exceptional cases, such as Namor. But generally speaking I think you've got a point.

 

Sexuality such is a core part of what somebody is really about. You can't ignore it. It's hard to forget it. So writers shouldn't play games with it, because it affects the image of the hero too much.

 

There's an old joke where a guy complains of his reputation, recites all the admirable things he has done and the reasons he should be respected, and finishes: "But ?@#! one goat! ..."

 

That's right: that's how people react. So when it comes to a superhero's sexuality, it's not good enough to say that a piece of disappointing behaviour was just a one-off and a bit of a laugh. Unless it's appropriate for the character it's better to let the joke go.

[Kristopher]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Jugernaut is supposed to be a "good guy" now, as far as I can tell.

 

Of course, I also saw an issue recently in which he and Black Tom (who is now a tree, evidently) and some other X-people were sucked into some kind of black hole in some guys head...and that guy had actually turned out to be Magneto last time I asked around, so now I'm completely confused.

[Blue]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Jugernaut is supposed to be a "good guy" now, as far as I can tell.

 

Of course, I also saw an issue recently in which he and Black Tom (who is now a tree, evidently) and some other X-people were sucked into some kind of black hole in some guys head...and that guy had actually turned out to be Magneto last time I asked around, so now I'm completely confused.

Heh. Well, here's best I can do with that (And I'm by no means an expert).

 

Juggernaut, well after he selpt with She-Hulk, for some reason turned good. He was placed on one of the X-teams, where he proceeded to constatnly butt-heads with Iceman (who reasonably enough didn't trust him). Juggy, it turns out, was working the inside for a New Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, with a kind of second-rate cast. Black Tom had become pretty powerful (somehow). Juggy winds up rebeling against the New Brotherhood because of what they did to the kid, with whom he'd struck up a friendship.

 

The Xorn thing is even hazier for me. I didn't follow the whole Magneto=Xorn thing, except that when they reshuffled the X-Books, they revealed that they weren't the same person and Xorn has since been floating around the X-books. The singularity in his head has indeed claimed a few victims. Magneto, meanwhile, made a brief appearance in the Avengers finale, but otherwise has been on Genosha in the Excalibur books, working with Professor X.

 

My opinion: Avoid the X-books except Astonishing X-men, which is not only well written and not as convoluted, but manages to dodge all of this overhead that I mentioned above.

 

Now back to the topic: I never read the issue where She-Hulk slept with Juggernaut. But when they restarted the She-Hulk series, she was kicked out of the Avengers Mansion because she'd become a serious Party Girl, throwing bashes that the other members didn't appreciate. She seemed to be sleeping around in her She-hulk form before that series started. Glad they put an end to that in the short-lived series.

[Twilight]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Now back to the topic: I never read the issue where She-Hulk slept with Juggernaut. But when they restarted the She-Hulk series, she was kicked out of the Avengers Mansion because she'd become a serious Party Girl, throwing bashes that the other members didn't appreciate. She seemed to be sleeping around in her She-hulk form before that series started. Glad they put an end to that in the short-lived series.

 

 

 

Yes because we wouldn't want a well written and funny comicbook on the market now would we? Can't let that happen at all, SUCH a good thing it was cancelled.

[assault]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Juggernaut, well after he selpt with She-Hulk, for some reason turned good. He was placed on one of the X-teams, where he proceeded to constatnly butt-heads with Iceman (who reasonably enough didn't trust him). Juggy, it turns out, was working the inside for a New Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, with a kind of second-rate cast. Black Tom had become pretty powerful (somehow). Juggy winds up rebeling against the New Brotherhood because of what they did to the kid, with whom he'd struck up a friendship.

 

...

 

My opinion: Avoid the X-books except Astonishing X-men, which is not only well written and not as convoluted, but manages to dodge all of this overhead that I mentioned above.

 

Frankly, it sounds like they are so desperately out of ideas that the whole thing should be cancelled...

 

I mean, presumably this stuff sells, and it might even be new to people who haven't been reading comics for eons, but it's just so unbelievably cliched...

 

Pre-Crisis Superman was more original than this. And more consistent in characterisation. And more fun.

[Twilight]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Frankly, it sounds like they are so desperately out of ideas that the whole thing should be cancelled...

 

I mean, presumably this stuff sells, and it might even be new to people who haven't been reading comics for eons, but it's just so unbelievably cliched...

 

Pre-Crisis Superman was more original than this. And more consistent in characterisation. And more fun.

 

Yes well written and fun books do sell, provided the editors give them a chance to. The latest She-Hulk series was a well written and very fun book and if they have any brains Marvel will bring it back, alongside Runaways and other books.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Juggernaut' date=' well after he selpt with She-Hulk, for some reason turned good. He was placed on one of the X-teams, [/quote']

 

Just for the record Juggy was working with the X-Men for some time before the She-Hulk bit. Also, it seems pretty clear from the Brotherhood story arc that Juggy was planning a betrayal of the Brotherhood all along (as was Nocturne, whom he pretended to kill prior to Sammy's tragic death). That was my guess from the outset, primarily due to the very lame new Brick character included in the Brotherhood (hey, who needs a lame new brick if Juggy will stick around).

 

Doesn't make the X-Books much less convoluted, though.

[Twilight]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Frankly, it sounds like they are so desperately out of ideas that the whole thing should be cancelled...

 

I mean, presumably this stuff sells, and it might even be new to people who haven't been reading comics for eons, but it's just so unbelievably cliched...

 

Pre-Crisis Superman was more original than this. And more consistent in characterisation. And more fun.

 

D'OH!! Thought you were agreeing with Blue about the She-Hulk comic there assault. My bad for not reading more closely. Sorry for getting on your case.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

The latest She-Hulk series was cancelled?

 

I liked it. Despite the Juggernaut reference.

 

Keith ":(" Curtis

[Twilight]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

The latest She-Hulk series was cancelled?

 

I liked it. Despite the Juggernaut reference.

 

Keith ":(" Curtis

 

More of a temporary postponement, or at least that's what Marvel claims. Volume 2 is due at some point in the future.

[Blue]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Yes from what I understand they're supposed to do another volume in September or so? I'm not sure why they would do things this way, but if it means they get the same writer back, I'm all for it.

[BcAugust]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Just saw a scene that reminded me of this thread. Marvel Team up 7(Fun book all around, actually), had a very sensual scene between Peter Parker and Mary Jane, with teasing and fun. But most of the scene was done with Mary Jane fully clothed(Peter had his shirt off) and Hugging. I can't think of anything that would have been added from having it be more graphic or more nudity.

 

Anyone else's thoughts on it?

[nexus]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Just saw a scene that reminded me of this thread. Marvel Team up 7(Fun book all around' date=' actually), had a [i']very[/i] sensual scene between Peter Parker and Mary Jane, with teasing and fun. But most of the scene was done with Mary Jane fully clothed(Peter had his shirt off) and Hugging. I can't think of anything that would have been added from having it be more graphic or more nudity.

 

Anyone else's thoughts on it?

 

Its been said some of the most sensual and erotic scenes have been done with the participants depicted fully or nearlly fully clothed so I believe it.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

sigh...

 

I'm going to have to get into the habit of checking the psot date in the intial post of EVERY thread I read nowadays. I just spent ten minutes re-reading stuff I read 2 months ago.

 

Keith "At least it wasn't two years" Curtis