Nudity and Sex in comics books

[nexus]

I do think nudity and sex have a place in modern comic books. The medium isn’t just for children anymore. There can be story and just pure entertainment aspects to both. I’ll confess I enjoy a well drawn picture of an attractive person in the nude or a well done sex scene as well as the next person. With the following caveats, there should be a reason for it. I don’t gratuitous and pointless T and A or erotica and I think books with such content should be clearly labeled as I fully understand that some people do not wish to see such things. Sometimes there is a time to turn the camera away or fade to black just as sometimes lingering on the moment can be affective, it depends on the mood and tone the creator is trying to accomplish. Sex for sex’s sake is usually boring (unless you are in the mood for porn, then its just fine), but sex as part of the story can add something. The Silver Age handling of sex was, admittedly fairly cartoony. It just didn’t exist beyond very chaste hints but the rusty (to steal a phrase from Oddhat) handling is just as unrealistic at times, focusing on perverse and extreme.

[Blue]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I think it works with newer characters, ones that don't have a history. I would NOT approve of, say, Captain America going commando, because some characters are just to Silver Age, too iconic, to ever do that to. I mean, I joke about Scarlet Witch fighting in lingerie all these years, but I think there's a real difference with simple cheesecake.

 

Gen13 can get away with it, primarily because it was a comic basically created to be that way. But don't pollute people's memories of the characters they've known and loved. For that, go to alt.binaries.cartoons and download Spiderman & MaryJane getting it on.

[Redmenace]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I don't see it as being any different from any other media. Sexuality is part of life and it will naturally come up in a story sometimes. When there is say an obligatory shower scene or a rape placed in the story only to justify the character's acts of sadism against the perp, I object.

 

What makes you ask?

[nexus]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I think it works with newer characters, ones that don't have a history. I would NOT approve of, say, Captain America going commando, because some characters are just to Silver Age, too iconic, to ever do that to. I mean, I joke about Scarlet Witch fighting in lingerie all these years, but I think there's a real difference with simple cheesecake.

 

Gen13 can get away with it, primarily because it was a comic basically created to be that way. But don't pollute people's memories of the characters they've known and loved. For that, go to alt.binaries.cartoons and download Spiderman & MaryJane getting it on.

 

Good point, Blue and while I don't share that view I can see why to some such images would be sullying their memories of a childhood hero. And that idea should be respected.

[nexus]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

What makes you ask?

 

No big reason. I just noticed it comes up a few times, particularly in threads comparing the different Ages and thought it might make an interesting thread topic.

[OddHat]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I have mixed feelings about it.

 

I like cheesecake pictures as much as most men. I don’t mind both beefcake and cheesecake in a superhero comic, so long as all of the characters are written well and the story itself is good. As a married man with four sisters and many female friends and coworkers, my idea of what “written well†means for a female character basically comes down to “Is it something that a man or woman I have known might say or do in similar circumstances?†I do not claim that this is a perfect standard, but it’s what I work from.

 

As to sex itself, it should exist in a Superhero world. Characters should date, love, marry, have kids, and all the rest. They can even casually boink, if it fits the characters and story. In a noir tale they can have dark compulsions, etc. However, I don’t like sex for shock value in comics, and I strongly dislike Super stories that explore perversity for its own sake or as a way for the writer to “punish†characters. That’s what made me give up on the Authority, and on the Wild Cards novels. I do not feel that such subject mater should be banned from the medium, but it would be nice to have a real ratings system on the lines of “NO†(Nothing Offensive), “CS/NT†(Cartoonish Sex/Naughty Tentacles), “WAAAW†(Writer Angry At All Women), and “BWFS†(British Writer Fears Sodomy).

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I have mixed feelings about it.

 

I like cheesecake pictures as much as most men. I don’t mind both beefcake and cheesecake in a superhero comic, so long as all of the characters are written well and the story itself is good. As a married man with four sisters and many female friends and coworkers, my idea of what “written well†means for a female character basically comes down to “Is it something that a man or woman I have known might say or do in similar circumstances?†I do not claim that this is a perfect standard, but it’s what I work from.

 

As to sex itself, it should exist in a Superhero world. Characters should date, love, marry, have kids, and all the rest. They can even casually boink, if it fits the characters and story. In a noir tale they can have dark compulsions, etc. However, I don’t like sex for shock value in comics, and I strongly dislike Super stories that explore perversity for its own sake or as a way for the writer to “punish†characters. That’s what made me give up on the Authority, and on the Wild Cards novels. I do not feel that such subject mater should be banned from the medium, but it would be nice to have a real ratings system on the lines of “NO†(Nothing Offensive), “CS/NT†(Cartoonish Sex/Naughty Tentacles), “WAAAW†(Writer Angry At All Women), and “BWFS†(British Writer Fears Sodomy).

 

Nice ratings.

 

Oddhat summarized my own feelings pretty well. Sex should exist, but it can be tastefully presented. A good writer and artist can let you know what's going on/what happened without having to get explicit. Same with torture, etc. The interrogation droid goes into the room, the door closes. You know what's going on, but there's no need to gratuitously show it. There can be nudity, but I don't think it's necessary to really show it - there's plenty of ways in a 2-D drawn medium to show "he's nekkid" without showing dangly bits. A character happens upon the scene of a bomb blast that has torn people apart - you can tell it's a horrific scene by the character's reaction, you don't need to show the gore in all it's detail.

 

I think at least some of the "shock" and "realism" in some comics is lack of aptitude and/or laziness from the creators, as much as it is intentionally "pushing the envelope/deliberately gritty".

[Hermit]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I may get flamed for this, but I also think there is nothing wrong with the 'rating system' some comics use. It works for movies, and it should work for comic books. I know some folks equate such labelling with censorship, but I see it as just a good way for attentive parents to be more aware of what the contents of a comic book issue might be. Plus, when someone acts all outraged that there is sexual content in a comic book, it's nice to say "What did you think 'Mature' on the cover corner meant? Duh..."

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

"What did you think 'Mature' on the cover corner meant? Duh..."

 

I thought that it meant the characters would be acting their age, being polite and respectful towards each other, hold down jobs and otherwise generally act responsibly.

 

What? Does it mean something else?

[Blue]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I thought that it meant the characters would be acting their age, being polite and respectful towards each other, hold down jobs and otherwise generally act responsibly.

 

What? Does it mean something else?

It doesn't mean "Characters inside behave like sex-starved teenagers on viagara and extasy"?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I thought that it meant the characters would be acting their age, being polite and respectful towards each other, hold down jobs and otherwise generally act responsibly.

 

What? Does it mean something else?

 

"This publication treats adult situations in a childish fashion and is therefore suitable for the entire family."

[Hermit]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I thought that it meant the characters would be acting their age, being polite and respectful towards each other, hold down jobs and otherwise generally act responsibly.

 

What? Does it mean something else?

Touche' and Repped

[Tengu King]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Well, I agree that sex and nudity have their place in comics, but too many writers these days seem to have the need to make it neccesary to bring comics down to a level where they're requisite.

 

Mature Readers/Adult titles have around for a while, but when they start reworking characters and books just to fit in sex for shock value, it's kind of like a line that didn't need to be crossed. A few examples:

 

WildCATs-Used to be a fun superhero book, but now it's a gritty black ops/boardroom melodrama, complete with needless nudity and sexual acts (I was surprised in the Wildstorm special when suddenly they bared Zealot's breasts and had her shack up with Majestic).

MAX Titles-The first few decided they needed to break the "sex barrier", if you will. Suddenly Nick Fury at the end of a night has half a dozen hookers collapsed about his room, and War Machine is imagining Scarlet Witch topless when he looks at her. I won't even mention Alias.

 

I expect this thing from Vertigo, but some things are just too degrading. The Ultimate Marvel Universe has showed us quickly how much sex is to be expected, and it's sad that it's because it's what society apparently wants these days.

[lemming]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I may get flamed for this' date=' but I also think there is nothing wrong with the 'rating system' some comics use. It works for movies, and it should work for comic books. I know some folks equate such labelling with censorship, but I see it as just a good way for attentive parents to be more aware of what the contents of a comic book issue might be. Plus, when someone acts all outraged that there is sexual content in a comic book, it's nice to say "What did you think 'Mature' on the cover corner meant? Duh..." [/quote']

I think seeing it as censorship isn't quite the issue. Probably a fear of sliding back to the authority seal that had strict guidelines.

That and perhaps noticing that movie ratings are a bit off anyway, or at least seem to be.

That being said, I don't mind a self rating system just as long as it's evident to the buyer. (well, the educated buyer. some people just won't get it)

[RDU Neil]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Iit would be nice to have a real ratings system on the lines of “NO†(Nothing Offensive)' date=' “CS/NT†(Cartoonish Sex/Naughty Tentacles), “WAAAW†(Writer Angry At All Women), and “BWFS†(British Writer Fears Sodomy).[/quote']

 

 

No no... that is BWFSBHCNSM

 

BWFS by Hitler's Crazed Nazi Sex Midgets!

[Wanderer]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

... are an excellent thing (as long as they can be fit into the story). It was high time the genre acknowledged that its readers base had evolved into adolescence and adulthood.

[Vondy]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

There's a time and a place. Its not all the time and in every place, which is perhaps one of the failings of modern comics. I'm not very sympathetic to the almost nonexistent constume, or the receding costume, for heroines, either. Its gratuitous and in your face. I'm not a hormonal fourteen year old whose reading comics because he want wanker material. If it has a plot or character development purpose then I'm all for it. Otherwise... its b-movie t and a exploitation,

[The Owl]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Sex and nudity doesn't seem a good match for all characters. I'd be perfectly happy with nothing much more explicit than fade-to-black for Batman, Spiderman, and Captain America.

 

I want warning in advance of bad writing and freaky rape scenes.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Out of curiosity, in recent comics, what qualifies as a 'WAAW' moment? I remember the old discussion about the Superman snuff scene (wherein the evil alien rapes a woman to death) -- is that what is meant?

[ShinDangaioh]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

Out of curiosity' date=' in recent comics, what qualifies as a 'WAAW' moment? I remember the old discussion about the Superman snuff scene (wherein the evil alien rapes a woman to death) -- is that what is meant?[/quote']

 

That's one.

 

Another would be the retconning of Gwen Stacy sleeping with Norman Osbourne.

 

Superman/Batman: The Girl Who Fell From Krypton stocy arc had gratuitous nudity. The story would have worked a lot better without Kara being without clothes for so long.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I think seeing it as censorship isn't quite the issue. Probably a fear of sliding back to the authority seal that had strict guidelines.

That and perhaps noticing that movie ratings are a bit off anyway, or at least seem to be.

That being said, I don't mind a self rating system just as long as it's evident to the buyer. (well, the educated buyer. some people just won't get it)

 

I don't mind the self-rating system, but make it obvious and clear enough that certain books get bagged so the 8 year olds aren't leafing through them.

[Solomon]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

There's a very loose self-rating system here too. Pr0n comics are routinely bagged, but there's no law about that - it's just a safety measure publishers enforce to avoid trouble with customer unions, families and the like.

 

However, comics here are less prudish than American ones. Generally speaking, only gorey, gruesome violence or very explicit sex earn "Mature Audience" labels. Nudity alone usually doesn't.

Of course it all depends on the comic's target audience: you won't be seeing Mickey Mouse's having a go at Minnie anywhere. Well, actually IIRC an issue of "Fantonald" (Donald Duck's superheroic persona) had a shot of full back nudity for a human, not anthro-animal, character. But that's aimed at older readers, and the Italian Disney market looks weird from an American perspective.

 

"Dylan Dog", which was top selling comic here for a few years in the early '90s, often featured full nudity, and occasionally mild sex scenes, eg two lovers kissing in bed, sheets covering the loins but nipples in sight. This was self-rated "Over age 14".

 

The most extreme instance I've seen was likely the uncensored issue 2 of Shirow's "Ghost in the Shell", which was not rated at all...

[CourtFool]

More Nudity and Sex in comics books please

 

There should be more.

 

I'm not a hormonal fourteen year old whose reading comics because he want wanker material.

 

I am!

 

I see your point, Von D-Man, and many others' as well. I will have to confess that when I pick up a comic, I am not looking for high-brow literature. I want fantasy and escapism. That being said, I am all for a self-rating system. I see no reason not to arm consumers and concerned parents with information.

[David Blue]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I think it depends a lot on what the nudity and sex mean, and how they drive the stories.

 

In Richard Corben's work they're fundamental. I remember a series where Corben's most famous hero Den, who had complete unconscious control of his physique, was dying a slow, wretched death of sheer lack of will to live (resulting in the deterioration of his once-mighty body), and only the news that his old lover Kath might still be alive dragged him back from the brink. When love, seen mainly as physical and sexual, is seen that directly and literally as the meaning of life, it is the obvious mainspring of all good stories and it should appear in glory in all good visual representations of those stories. You can agree or disagree with Richard Corben's feelings and beliefs, but if you accept that his starting point has some validity, his art follows.

 

Richard Corben was never pandering by having his heroes wander around nude. He was compromising to his shame when he had them put pants on so his stories could be sold to a wider audience.

 

In other contexts a kiss may be all that's needed to show the all important romance. The Mummy, starring Arnold Vosloo, has five kisses, and every one of them counts for a lot in the development of the story and is handled appropriately. To show that Imhotep is first of all in lust with Anksunamun, she appears wearing hardly anything but body paint. But where we're dealing with the absolute virgin Evie the librarian and her first and only romance (leading nowhere but faithful marriage), nothing like that is called for or seen.

 

Again, in the Spiderman movies, we saw everything we needed to about Peter and Mary-Jane's sexual relationship: that upside-down kiss thing is thrilling for Mary-Jane only with one person. That's decisive, the plot turns on it, so we dwell on that - but nothing more.

 

I know I'm drifting from comics to movies here, but I'm trying to talk about how things should be done right, and comics are generally pathetic on this. The limited series with Hawkeye that finished with him marrying - Mockingbird I think? Wasn't that a grand romance - not.

 

Basically, if there is an important sex/romance/love theme going, I think we should see all and only what we need to see according to what characters are involved and the representations appropriate for them - full nudity for a typical pair of Richard Corben's heroic lovers, and nothing remotely like that for Lois Lane and Clark Kent.

 

If there is no such theme, or if there shouldn't be, then there should be no fan-service in a Western-style superhero comic.

[Katherine]

Re: Nudity and Sex in comics books

 

I feel that if a comic (or a game for that matter) is going for a realistic feel then sexuality will eventually come up, at least in passing. It is a very powerful motivator in humans, influencing much of behavior. I don't mean it should be gratitous though. Sex, erotica/porn is like a spice. Used correctly it adds flavor and zest to the story, used to liberally and its ruins it.