Golden Age Myth?

[levi]

I just read an article in Wizard Magazine #167 entitled "Bats Gotta Hurt" by Chris Ward. This article was friggin' hilarious, but the point of this thread is that it made me question some of the things I had always believed were true about the Golden Age of comics. I was always told that the heroes of the Golden Age were upstanding, forthright do-ers of good deeds, but in this article, Chris shows us excerpts from DC's Batman Chronicles Vol. I. In these first eleven issues of the c. 1939 Batman, we see a Batman that would make the Miller-esque "gritty" incarnation blush. In these snippets we see Batman kill 3...no make that 4 minor thugs (plus a vampire) in some pretty grisly ways. So it leaves me wondering, was this an isolated incident or are these Golden Ages not so "Golden" afterall?

[McCoy]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

I was always told that the heroes of the Golden Age were upstanding' date=' forthright do-ers of good deeds,[/quote']

That's more the Silver Age, when The Comics Code ruled with an iron fist.

[levi]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

So the Golden-agers were more like Pulp-heroes?

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

I tend to view the Golden Age as something of a transitional period between the old Pulp era and the Silver Age. At the beginning of the Golden Age, you get very pulpy behavior. Superman often acted very thuggish, using his powers to terrrorize criminals and corrupt politicians. However both Batman and Superman evolved towards their Silver Age versions over the Golden Age.

[Rage]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

So the Golden-agers were more like Pulp-heroes?

often they were pulp heroes, hell the Masked adventurers became the masked avengers.

[st barbara]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

It is probably true that a lot of the "Golden Age" heros were more like Pulp era characters. There also seemed to be more "one trick ponies" around; people who had a single "gimmick" or technique. An example of this might be "Dr Mid-Nite" whose only trick seemed to be to throw down a "blackout bomb" and use the fact that he had infrared vision and his opponents didn't to win the fight !

[Jhamin]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

It has been argued that the modern grim 'n gritty versions of Batman are actually a return to the origional version of the character. The Silver Age/Super Friends/Adam West versions are the abberation and the Frank Miller Batman is just a slight extension.

 

After reading "the greatest batman stories ever told" a few years back, I am willing to believe that.....

[Hermit]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

So the Golden-agers were more like Pulp-heroes?

 

Yeah, some say there are actually two golden ages, before the Code which was very pulp (and often violent and risque), and a bit afterwards that forced the heroes into the sunshine goodness that would continue on into the Silver Age with a vengeance. What's more, flashbacks or referals to the Golden Age would forever be glossed over by that brush.

 

Now, I actually get a kick out of the Golden Age/4 color version, but I do think that an "Bronze Age" style retelling of the Typical WW2 team during the war would be neat.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

Yeah, that early Batman ruled.

 

And yeah, Hermit, a gritty retelling of a WWII super-team would be awesome. "Saving Captain Rogers" or something...heh heh.

 

The closest thing I've seen lately was the aborted "New Invaders".

[TheEmerged]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

Let's remember that in Action Comics #1 Superman threatens to beat up a woman if she doesn't tell him what he wants to know. Let's remember that Batman originally carried a gun. Let's remember that one of Plastic Man's earliest power tricks was reflecting bullets back at the people that shot them, usually fatally. Let's remember that Wonder Woman... wait, the WW comics of the Golden Age wouldn't pass the board rules

 

Someone earlier mentioned that the pre-Code Golden Age books were a lot closer to the pulps -- this is a pretty strong argument that actually reading the books of that era tends to back up. This is especially true once WW2 was underway, when killing Nazi's and Japs was commonplace (sometimes offscreen but not always). There were some sillier stuff -- one classic Plastic Man story involves, I kid you not, butter smuggling (it was overly rationed early in the war).

 

The whole square-jawed goody-goody nonkiller thing comes from the later, post-Code Golden Age and was reinforced during the horror that was the Silver Age. Okay, I'm being slightly editorial there (I got into comics during the later part of the Silver Age and fail to see the nostalgia for it) but the point remains.

[Hermit]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

Yeah, that early Batman ruled.

 

And yeah, Hermit, a gritty retelling of a WWII super-team would be awesome. "Saving Captain Rogers" or something...heh heh.

 

The closest thing I've seen lately was the aborted "New Invaders".

 

For that matter, you really want to confuse things have a group of "superheroes" serving Hitler's Germany, some of who are indeed total bastards and fitting every black sterotype, and others who are misguided patriots, and even a few who are given no choice but to serve a master they loathe.

 

But I don't think either of the big two would touch that with a ten foot pole.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

I just read an article in Wizard Magazine #167 entitled "Bats Gotta Hurt" by Chris Ward. This article was friggin' hilarious' date=' but the point of this thread is that it made me question some of the things I had always believed were true about the Golden Age of comics. I was always told that the heroes of the Golden Age were upstanding, forthright do-ers of good deeds, but in this article, Chris shows us excerpts from DC's Batman Chronicles Vol. I. In these first eleven issues of the c. 1939 Batman, we see a Batman that would make the Miller-esque "gritty" incarnation blush. In these snippets we see Batman kill 3...no make that 4 minor thugs (plus a vampire) in some pretty grisly ways. So it leaves me wondering, was this an isolated incident or are these Golden Ages not so "Golden" afterall?[/quote']

 

In comicdom there are actually two Golden Ages. There is the age shown in the comics actually published during that time (which you have just now apparently been exposed to); and there is the age depicted in modern comics that are set in that time period, which tend to romanticize and sanitize the Golden Age.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

In comicdom there are actually two Golden Ages. There is the age shown in the comics actually published during that time (which you have just now apparently been exposed to); and there is the age depicted in modern comics that are set in that time period' date=' which tend to romanticize and sanitize the Golden Age.[/quote']Nice and succinct, John. A very well-done job of summation; I think that is exactly the situation!

 

I came to a similar conclusion when researching stuff for the Golden Age / WWII game I was going to be running this last June. While I had known, intellectually, that Batman once carried a gun, etc. I tended to think of the Golden Age as overblown, "Gee whiz!!"-kind of stuff; I'd never put two and two together, so to speak.

 

Actually researching the source material did open my eyes, and surprise me a bit, bringing that dichotomy into sharp relief. My player wanted the more "gritty" Golden Age feel, since she was going to be playing a British "hyper-man" during WWII and often coming into conflict with Nazi soldiers and Axis hyper-men, and thought it would be completely in keeping for a British hero, under those circumstances, to kill Axis soldiers and supers when necessary, instead of having everything whitewashed. After some discussion I tended to agree, and that's how we proceeded. It worked very well indeed.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

In comicdom there are actually two Golden Ages. There is the age shown in the comics actually published during that time (which you have just now apparently been exposed to); and there is the age depicted in modern comics that are set in that time period' date=' which tend to romanticize and sanitize the Golden Age.[/quote']

Though there have also been a few attempts to do comics set back in the Golden Age that also shatter those myths. The "Truth: Red, White and Black" storyline was one of those attempts.

[Chuckg]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

For that matter, you really want to confuse things have a group of "superheroes" serving Hitler's Germany, some of who are indeed total bastards and fitting every black sterotype, and others who are misguided patriots, and even a few who are given no choice but to serve a master they loathe.

 

But I don't think either of the big two would touch that with a ten foot pole.

 

Now you're reminding me of my own incarnation of the Ubermensch. I had some of the team members be revamps of characters from Champs 4e "Golden Age", and some be OCs. And some were good Germans, and some were Nazis. Indeed, I staffed the team largely with ethical archetypes, from the war movies.

 

IIRC, the roll-call was:

 

Shocktrooper -- yup, everybody's favorite Waffen-SS cyborg. Team leader.

 

Ethically, he represented the archetype of the 'honorable old-school Prussian' -- he was loyal to the regime not because he liked it, but because he strictly followed the old German officer corps' code of honor and the Nazi regime was also the German State. As mentioned, he fought exactly according to the Geneva Conventions... but also didn't hold back on the lethal force, as he was a soldier's soldier.

 

In my timeline, he survived the war, was brought up at Nuremberg, found innocent of any war crimes, and retired in quiet obscurity.

 

Der Valkryie -- no longer a comically fat misplaced opera singer, my incarnation of Der Valkryie was a simple young German farm girl, who simply one day developed her superpowers (brick, naturally) and kept them hidden, as she was afraid of peoples' reactions. She stepped forward and volunteered her services to the war effort shortly after hearing that her husband (who had, like virtually all the other young men of his generation, been drafted) had been killed on the Russian front.

 

Ethically, she was representing the archetype of the German laboring class -- out of her depth, not understanding the big picture at all, and naively believing she was doing the right thing. Later in the war, as she found more of what kind of regime she was serving, she grew very disillusioned, but stuck it out anyway both out of fear of Gestapo retribution, and because she was falling in unrequited love with Shocktrooper.

 

In my timeline Der Valkryie died heroically during the fall of Berlin in 1945, while trying to hold off the Russian armored advance.

 

Geschwind -- Geschwind was a young German infantryman who, while on the Russian front, developed superspeed powers. He was immediately picked for special duty and assigned to the Ubermensch. He rapidly grew to like being a person of importance and special privilege, as opposed to being cannon fodder number four million and two dying in Stalingrad.

 

Ethically, Geschwind was relaxedly amoral -- he took no special pleasure in handing out suffering, but neither did he care much about the casualties he was inflicting, or how unfair most of his fights against 'normals' were. He was just happy that Number One was being taken care of, and didn't mind going along with 'the system' to get it.

 

Geschwind was another casualty of the war, dying at the hands of Allied supers during the Battle of the Bulge.

 

Pirschjaeger -- already an experienced SS-Einsatzgruppen sniper /before/ he became a vampire, Pirschjaeger was the most deadly assassin on the Nazi's side. A crack shot with his customized Mauser rifle, and capable of using his vampiric powers to get into and out of anywhere, Pirschjaeger specialized in night sniping and taking out Very Senior Officers.

 

Ethically -- well, as you can guess from the words 'Einsatzgruppen' and 'vampire', Pirschjaeger was a monster. Already borderline sociopathic /before/ becoming undead, he would gladly indulge in murder, looting, eating people, torture, and any other atrocity he felt necessary. Or entertaining. Shocktrooper and him butted heads a /lot/ on the proper treatment of prisoners, and other such issues. However, like many SS, his psychopathy was kept in check by discipline... he'd creatively interpret his orders to get away with as much 'fun' as he could, but he wouldn't disobey them. His archetype was, of course, 'SS scumbag'.

 

Pirschjaeger went "missing, believed Finally Dead" in early 1945. Whether he was actually laid to rest or just took an opportune moment to head for the hills, and (being immortal) might still be out there somewhere, is something TBD in my timeline. (However, according to Allied records, if he was killed, it weren't by them. Unless it was a /very/ off-the-record operation.)

 

And last, but definitely not least, was:

 

Dr. Qual -- yup, that's right, everybody's famous telepathic Nazi mad scientist. Although Shocktrooper officially led the team (and was considerably more trusted by the high command), that didn't deny the fact that Dr. Qual was himself a man of great influence. Him and Pirschjaeger got along very well... a lot of the time, the group dynamics broke down to the Shocktrooper/Der Valkryie block, the Qual/Pirschjaeger block, and the Geschwind swing vote.

 

Ethically and archetypically -- it's Dr. Qual. Nuff said.

 

Dr. Qual was convicted at Nuremberg and convicted of, oh, virtually ever war crime that there's a law for. Was hung by the neck until dead (no, really, he's quite dead).

[Susano]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

Dr. Qual -- yup' date=' that's right, everybody's famous telepathic Nazi mad scientist.[/quote']

 

The description given for Qual in the 2nd Edition of Golden Age of Champions has to be one of the best ever written.

[assault]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

I tend to view the Golden Age as something of a transitional period between the old Pulp era and the Silver Age. At the beginning of the Golden Age' date=' you get very pulpy behavior. Superman often acted very thuggish, using his powers to terrrorize criminals and corrupt politicians. However both Batman and Superman evolved towards their Silver Age versions over the Golden Age.[/quote']

 

I would generally agree with this characterisation.

 

WWII complicated the situation, of course, with characters like Captain America often behaving as though they were in a war comic, rather than in what is usually thought of as a superhero one. So while Robin killing a few gangsters (in 1940) is "pulpish", Bucky machinegunning hundreds of Japanese soldiers (in 1942) isn't!

 

Funnily enough, the Comics Code Authority was created in 1954, about the same time as Captain America was in his "Commie Smasher" period. I'm not sure if the two had an impact on each other - they may just have been products of the same social era. The "Commie Smasher" Cap was a truly alarming character.

 

Of course, there were always comedy characters like Johnny Thunder and the Red Tornado (Ma Hunkel). Trivia: Black Canary was originally part of Johnny Thunder's supporting cast - virtually a sidekick. I find this concept... interesting...

 

Note that we are only discussing the Golden Age in the US. There were other comics industries at the same time, usually under some degree of US influence. We also seem to mainly be discussing two companies - those who became the present day Big Two.

 

To sum up: the Golden Age was complex and multi-faceted. Just like the present day. A lot of what is commonly considered as characteristic of the Golden Age would be more accurately viewed as associated with the Silver Age. Yes, it did exist in the GA, but wasn't the only aspect of the period.

 

Even at the very end of the Golden Age (1954), darker elements were present. In fact, they actually continued into the Silver Age, to some extent, since there are distinct elements of continuity of theme and style between the early Marvel Silver Age superhero titles and their slightly earlier "monster books".

 

There was never a full separation of themes and influence between superhero genre titles and those of the crime, war, western, science fiction and horror genres. (And probably a few others). But these were all originally pulp genres.

[st barbara]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

If you read the original version of the "Comics Code" you will see that it was specifically targeted at the violent horror and crime comics of the era. In particular it was targeted DELIBERATELY at "E C" comics ! Apart from Wertham drawing a very loose definition of what was a "crime" comic, there wasn't nearly as much criticism of the "Superhero" comics as there was of the crime and horror comics of that ers.

[Whitewings]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

If you read the original version of the "Comics Code" you will see that it was specifically targeted at the violent horror and crime comics of the era. In particular it was targeted DELIBERATELY at "EC" comics! Apart from Wertham drawing a very loose definition of what was a "crime" comic' date=' there wasn't nearly as much criticism of the "Superhero" comics as there was of the crime and horror comics of that era.[/quote']

True, but the Code made it nearly impossible to tell any story with any kind of depth or significance. Authority had to be good. The villains could never gain from their actions (even temporarily). Violence beyond fisticuffs could not be depicted or even referred to. Drug use could not be referred to, even in a story that showed it to be bad. And on, and on, and on, page after page. I've read the original Code.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

I just went a read the original Comics Code ..

 

That is the stupidest most resctrictive tripe I've had the displeasure to read.

 

America was one step from Totalitariam Regime in the 1950s... McCarthyism nearly killed us in almost all aspects of life. Sheesh.

 

I am so happy I grew up in the 80s.

[Lemurion]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

I've read a number of the real Golden Age comics-- and as has been said before they are far deeper than the post-code junk. The real miracle is that they were able to tell any stories at all under the code limitations.

[Black Rose]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

Tangenting ever-so-slightly....

 

It would be interesting to play young metas - I'm thinking mid-teens to mid-twenties - who get sent back to Golden!Age!Era America - or somewhere else, I'm not picky - and are under the assumption that, in order to "blend in" (and not "disrupt the time stream") they need to act like metas from the "Golden Age". Watch as Nucleo... um, Atomic Boy -snicker-... tries to deliver a speach on not smuggling, only to discover the smuggled goods are sugar (or butter, or steaks, or whatever). See Vorte... Speedy Lass -grumble snarl- try to stop subversive Commie scum from... getting beaten mercilessly by the innocent bystanders.

 

Could be a fun game. Sadly, I simply don't know enough about the period, both RL and comics-wise, to run it. But I'd love to play in it. if only to do those great scenes where you try to stop your teammates from dating someone else's grandparent-to-be.

 

"Dude, there is no way on God's green earth I'm letting you get within five miles of my Granma. You're a total manslut, and I'm not letting you become my Granda. Ain't happening."

[vitruvian23]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

I've read a number of the real Golden Age comics-- and as has been said before they are far deeper than the post-code junk. The real miracle is that they were able to tell any stories at all under the code limitations.

 

As already noted, Golden Age would be pre-code.

[st barbara]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

I just went a read the original Comics Code ..

 

That is the stupidest most resctrictive tripe I've had the displeasure to read.

 

America was one step from Totalitariam Regime in the 1950s... McCarthyism nearly killed us in almost all aspects of life. Sheesh.

 

I am so happy I grew up in the 80s.

Yes. Now imagine being a superhero in a world like that; a world where Senator Joe McCarthy became President of the United States ! Welcome to the world that "St Barbara" operates in !

[bubba smith]

Re: Golden Age Myth?

 

It is probably true that a lot of the "Golden Age" heros were more like Pulp era characters. There also seemed to be more "one trick ponies" around; people who had a single "gimmick" or technique. An example of this might be "Dr Mid-Nite" whose only trick seemed to be to throw down a "blackout bomb" and use the fact that he had infrared vision and his opponents didn't to win the fight !

true but not all super-heroes need to be all powerful

i like dc comics golden agers because they were LESS powerful than the JLAmembers like the avis ads said"they're#2 had to try harder"