Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

[Niles]

I've been thinking about it and in the Comics Bricks are much more likely to be fast than to be slow. How did it become common wisdom in the HERO community that Bricks are slow & clumsy, is it Ogre having the lowest speed of all the sample characters in early (at least in 3rd I don't have access to 1st or 2nd) edditions? Does the Blob have some stange hold on everyones imagination?

[freakboy6117]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

actually i think its more to do with the real world.

 

in real life we expect big things to be slow and lumbering like cattle which while fast can be outrun by people at least over short distances(think bullfighting or the running of the bulls in Pamplona). we expect big things though powerful to have poor acceleration and agility just because of momentum.

 

its often surprising in the real world how quick or agile very large people can be sumo wrestlers for instance are remarkably swift though they seem ponderous and slow at first glance.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Slow as in glacially slow, no, but the Thing is slower than the Human Torch, for example, and folks sucessfully run away or dodge from the Hulk pretty regularly.

[Niles]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

No One Dodges the Hulk regularly. Not Captain America, Not Spiderman, Not Namor, Noone.

 

I've seen comics where he fights them all.

[garou]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Well, a lot of them dodge the Hulk right up until the last attack, where he finally hits, and then it's good-night, Gracie.

[Niles]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Sure, with the caveat that the last punch is usually the first or second. The Hulk is super fast and super agile.

[Eyendasky80]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

I've seen Spidey dodge Hulk lots.

[levi]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Who says that they're slow? Most bricks have a DEX / SPD in the same range as Energy Projectors. Now Martial Artists and Speedsters tend to be faster because that is their schtick, it is their primary form of DEF afterall. Also Bricks tend to have CSLs to compensate for a lack of DEX / SPD.

 

So it becomes a matter of play balance. STR is already considered under-costed by many HEROphiles. So I wouldn't want to play the Martial Artist in a game where the Brick (who likely has higher DEF and does at least as much damage as I do) and I have the same DEX / SPD. It makes my MA less important to the group.

 

Another point to consider is that they aren't slow at all. Even an 18 DEX / 4 SPD character is as agile and quick-handed as any (non-super) professional fighter. On top of being able to punch holes in vault doors. So give the MAs and Speedsters the ability to act first and even an extra PHA or two per Turn (tends to run them out of END faster) the group's balance will benefit from your restraint.

 

Here are some examples from the CKC...

Black Diamond @ 350 pts.

20 DEX 6 SPD 9 Max OCV

-- compared to --

Hornet @ 350 pts.

22 DEX 5 SPD 9 Max OCV

 

Gargantua at max Growth & 557 pts.

20 DEX 5 SPD 11 Max OCV (vs. your HEX!)

-- compared to --

Utility @542 pts.

20 DEX 5 SPD 14 Max OCV

 

Grond is the extreme example @ 410 pts.

18 DEX 4/6 SPD 10 MAx OCV

-- compared to --

Force @ 450 pts.

21 DEX 5 SPD 9 Max OCV

 

Should the team's Brick be the last guy to act in a given Phase or have the lowest SPD? Not always. Depends on your character's origin, concept and what you can afford (like most things in the HERO system).

 

Just wanted to help you clear up this mis-perception.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Ben Grimm (the archetypical brick and undoubtably the inspiration for the term) was a football star and test pilot prior to gaining his powers. That doesn't suggest "slow" to me. What seems more likely is that his speed and agility were not enhanced by the radiation and thus are no better than any normal athletic human's. Therefore he's "slow" only compared to persons with superhuman agility such as Spider-Man or Wolverine. Is the Thing slower than the Human Torch? Well, probably, but the Torch is not only many years younger but is an athlete himself (race car driver). I've seen the Thing grab Mr. Fantastic in a fight when Mr. Fantastic was making every effort to avoid being caught; and few people would categorize Reed Richards as slow.

 

I'd build the Thing with a SPD 4 and a DEX between 18 and 20. That may seem slow compared to many supers, but compared to your average citizen or soldier it's damned impressive. Normals should be the benchmark; not agile supers. (And always keeping in mind that gamers, as opposed to the source material, tend to inflate their character's capabilities compared to comic book characters because within the game system SPD and DEX are so useful.)

[incrdbil]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

and then there are reasons relating to everyone else...

 

"So, you want a character who is tops in damage potential for the team, highest defenses, lots of stun, body--and as fast as the martial artist and an equivalent speed to the superspeedster. Why not give him an energy blast, a gadget pool, some mental attacks, and call him Captain Steal your Thunder?"

[Chimpira]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Funny in my game the brick goes the second fastest in the group. His dex is 23. For some unknown reason the majority of my players bought dexterties of about 20 even when I told them the average is about 23 to 25. Heck the martial artist has a dex of 26. They have beat everyones butt that I have thrown up against them so maybe they know something I didn't.

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

The "bricks are slow" prevailing notion makes it that much more fun to play Durak for the first time.

 

23 Dex with +4 hand-to-hand. That's one fast brick.

[Niles]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

and then there are reasons relating to everyone else...

 

"So, you want a character who is tops in damage potential for the team, highest defenses, lots of stun, body--and as fast as the martial artist and an equivalent speed to the superspeedster. Why not give him an energy blast, a gadget pool, some mental attacks, and call him Captain Steal your Thunder?"

 

In both my experience and in published characters Bricks usually deal the same damage as their teamates, have comparible defences, The worst mobility, and the worst ability to deal with a more mobile foe. How is a non-flying brick suppossed to deal with flyers? Throwing things puts you at such a CV penalty it's not a sollution.

[Niles]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

I'd build the Thing with a SPD 4 and a DEX between 18 and 20. That may seem slow compared to many supers' date=' but compared to your average citizen or soldier it's damned impressive. Normals should be the benchmark; not agile supers. (And always keeping in mind that gamers, as opposed to the source material, tend to inflate [i']their[/i] character's capabilities compared to comic book characters because within the game system SPD and DEX are so useful.)

Fair enough Trebuchet, I want to know what speed and dexterity you'd put the rest of the FF at for comparison purposes.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

‘Jump’ or ‘Throw Something Big’ are the traditional choices. (and if you have an average Dex, as most actual bricks do, even throwing something small is hardly hopeless) Assuming he can’t fly an has no ranged attacks at all, which isn’t necessarily a safe assumption.

 

And assuming he went with the cheapo skill levels, which is his own fault.

 

If the brick is in an open space with nothing to throw fighting a flying Energy Projector with enough levels to hit him consistently while staying far enough away that he can’t jump high enough, then he’s in trouble . . . But every character should be in trouble when they’re fighting someone designed to take them down, in a battlefield that favors their opponent.

 

I mean, what does a Martial Artist do when fighting someone with high defenses, AOE attacks and Entangles in a confined area? Mostly, you die.

 

---

Though if we're going to argue source material, Energy Projectors should probably do more damage than bricks do . . .

[Trebuchet]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Fair enough Trebuchet' date=' I want to know what speed and dexterity you'd put the rest of the FF at for comparison purposes.[/quote']Hmm.

 

Human Torch: SPD 5, DEX 20

 

Mr. Fantastic: SPD 5, DEX 23

 

Invisible Woman: SPD 4, DEX 18

 

 

All of them have several combat and/or Overall levels due to experience. BTW, for comparison purposes I'd rate Spider-Man as a SPD 7, Dex 35 - 38; Captain America as SPD 6, DEX 30; and Wolverine a SPD 5, DEX 26.

 

I think most Champions campaigns (even my own to some extent) suffer from "Characteristic inflation." Raw numbers aren't nearly as relevant as relative numbers.

[Susano]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

I've seen Spidey dodge Hulk lots.

 

That's hardly a fair comparison. Spidey's whole bit is that he dodges everyone lots.

 

For what it's worth, Superman and Wonderwoman (as well as Samaritan and Winged Victory) have always seemed to be fairly fast people, with Supes being nearly Flash-like at times. On the other hand, The Thing, Colossus, the Abomination, and the like have seemed just above human norms, with DEXs in the high teens and low 20s and SPDs of around 4. Of course, all of them (the Thing especially) have a lot of skills levels with Hand-To-Hand combat to make up for it.

[caris]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

In both my experience and in published characters Bricks usually deal the same damage as their teamates' date=' have comparible defences, The worst mobility, and the worst ability to deal with a more mobile foe. How is a non-flying brick suppossed to deal with flyers? Throwing things puts you at such a CV penalty it's not a sollution.[/quote']

 

While I can not speak to yours or anyone else’s personal experience, I’d like to an extent question the validity of your claim in regards to published characters. We have not seen that many teams built for use as PCs. Most of the characters in published source material are meant to be NPC allies or antagonists, which means the design philosophy of those characters is significantly different than for a PC team. (Even the MC8 were not built as a team, but as a selection of individual characters.)

 

Using Ironclad in comparison to the other champions this is what I see:

 

Damage: On the surface Ironclad’s damage looks comparable to the other Champions, but that Find Weakness with punch is pretty significant in my eyes. He has a 74% chance against most opponents of halving their defenses, which means Ironclad is going to be the one most likely to do lots of damage against a target.

 

Defense: His total PD and ED are the best on the team as are his Resistant Defenses. While, I grant that the spread isn’t that great. It is important to note that two of his teammates rely on non-Persistent Force Fields, and that other two use Foci that some GMs would declare Breakable for theirs. Also once you move from pure PD and ED to factoring in CON and STUN things swing even more decisively in Ironclad’s favor given that he and Defender top the CON range with the next most likely match is 7 points lower than either of them. Ironclad is the hardest to Stun. Also with his 30 more points of STUN he is also the one that takes the most amount of damage to go unconscious.

 

Mobility: OK, three of his teammates fly, which is generally one of the most versatile of movement, but Sapphire and Witchfire are actually 5†per phase slower than Ironclad with their flight. Sapphire doesn’t even make up for on a per Turn basis where Ironclad is 100†covered and Sapphire is 90â€. Nighthawk uses Swinging, which I would consider a wash on overall effectiveness, if it weren’t for Ironclad’s mass. Normally, both someone using Swinging is dependent on his/her environment to get to an effective height to attack a flier, which would be true of some one using Leaping. In this case though, Nighthawk would find many more surfaces to support his mass than Ironclad would.

 

Abitlity to deal with a more mobile foe: I assume that this means ranged attacks. Yes, all four of the other Champions do have ranged attacks, which do equal roughly their max damage. So they do not suffer the additionally Range penalties for the object’s shape or limitation to damage due to the DEF+BODY of the object. On the other hand only Nighthawk has an Area of Effect Attack. Given his STR Ironclad, could reasonably expect to throw an object that counts as a AoE attack, which would offset those penalties for throwing a lot.

 

Now lets add into this that Ironclad for his preferred mode of attack can generates the best OCV at 11, only Nighthawk can match him, while at the same time Nighthawk has lower DCs on his attacks (even without Ironclad making his Find Weakness Roll). Going all Defensive against a Hand to Hand attack Ironclad and Nighthawk are again tied when not Dodging. Thanks to his Martial Dodge, Nighthawk can generate the highest general DCV, but only Witchfire is worse at taking a hit than Nighthawk.

 

This is an important place for me to note that I pretty much did not factor in Witchfire’s Lesser Witcheries VPP, because how effective it is really depends on the GM and Player involved.

 

Now, keep in mind the person creating Ironclad made a conscious decision to make him a Hand to Hand fighter (in my experience many people making Martial Artists make the same decision), but the character could have been shifted to make a different type of Brick that is not as Hand to Hand focused. For example, spending 12 pts to raise the Hand to Hand Combat Skill Levels to All Combat Skill Levels would have gone a long way to offset the penalties imposed on thrown objects. Heck, there are a ton of Brick Trick builds for ranged attacks. Granted, Ironclad would have had to make trade offs to get that effectiveness, but so would Sapphire to be better in Hand to Hand. Those trade offs would also move them more from their pure archetypes, as well.

 

Matter of fact, speaking strictly from personal experience, the “pure†Brick is the archetype that I have seen the least. Amongst the people that I play with the hybrid Brick has been a lot more common.

 

I don’t have time right now to evaluate the Champions 3000, and I don’t own Teen Champions to evaluate whatever team is in it. Even so, I suspect that a lot of this would carry through to them as well.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Actually, I've never noticed the Brick = Slow in comics (exception 1: the Blob, exception 2: The Juggernaut). It's a mechanic of RPG's because fast bricks offend someones sensibilities.

[caris]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

I've been thinking about it and in the Comics Bricks are much more likely to be fast than to be slow. How did it become common wisdom in the HERO community that Bricks are slow & clumsy' date=' is it Ogre having the lowest speed of all the sample characters in early (at least in 3rd I don't have access to 1st or 2nd) edditions? Does the Blob have some stange hold on everyones imagination?[/quote']

 

By the way, where have you ever seen presented the oppion that bricks are slow and clumsy as opposed to the idea that brick usually have a lower Dex and SPD than other Super-human Archetypes?

[caris]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Actually' date=' I've never noticed the Brick = Slow in comics (exception 1: the Blob, exception 2: The Juggernaut). It's a mechanic of RPG's because fast bricks offend someones sensibilities. [/quote']

 

Once again, what do you mean by slow? How often does Colossus tag his teammates that are not as heavily protected as he is? Does the fact that I believe Nightcrawler to be faster than Colossus mean that I think Colossus is slow?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Not at all. And that's not the issue. No one is saying that Colossus is obviously faster than Nightcrawler. Jean Grey maybe, but not the super dodgy guys.

 

 

It's just that there are some gamers that seem to think DEX and STR are rightfully disproportionate. A character with high physical stats is some how more munchkiny or power gaming. Campaign limits aside anyone who can soak and damage at a proportional level is somehow less heroic than the Batman clones or bricks with dex 8 spd 2...

[gewing]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Actually' date=' I've never noticed the Brick = Slow in comics (exception 1: the Blob, exception 2: The Juggernaut). It's a mechanic of RPG's because fast bricks offend someones sensibilities. [/quote']

 

 

I agree. I think part of the "slow Brick" generalization came about in original Champions. At 250 points, despite the efficiency of strength, most "bricks" were not going to be hugely fast.

 

What other comic book characters might be slow bricks? Unus IIRC?

 

 

Colossus wasn't hugely fast, but not much slower than his team mates iirc.

 

 

Hell, Gladiator was certainly a brick, and I wouldn't call HIM slow...

 

 

Yes, I read mostly Marvel for years. Why do you ask?

[OddHat]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

I think that part of it may be from the fact that Bricks get hit a lot in the comics. If you have an "invulnerable" character, it's satisfying to watch him get smacked around, blown up, hit by trucks, etc. You can then declare that "Nobody could have survive that" just before he gets up, unharmed. If Batman or Green Arrow get hit in the face by a shotgun blast, the series is over, and so they become amazingly nimble (but not so nimble as to avoid being captured).

 

By a similar principle, it will be the guy with cybernetic limbs that gets them hacked off, unless the writer has decided that metal limbs would make a non-cyber character look cooler.

 

In Champions, point cost and active point limits (and complicated balancing schemes) start to come into play. You can design a brick that has a STR 80, Dex 35, SPD 7, and a suite of martial arts with the Full Move element, but in most campaigns the GM is going to take one look and say "No."

[Enforcer84]

Re: Where did the idea that Bricks are usually slow come from?

 

Like I said, I've always felt it was more of a game convention rather than a genre convention.

 

I'll grant that Colossus is slower than Wolverine, Angel, Nightcrawler, et al. But I am not so sure he falls behind Cyclops, and many of the others. He just doesn't generally dodge out of the way.