If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

[Susano]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

So what has made you loyal to Hero?

 

To quote you? This:

 

I really CAN play the character I want.

 

I also can build nearly anything as well, be it a person, spell, magic artifact, monster, or vehicle (well, mostly). Not to mention I can easily create the setting I want with minimal tinkering of the rules. And these days, all I really need is FRED and I'm all set. And I find building things to be fairly simple and really elegant. I specify power X to create effect Y and there I go. No shoe-horning in other powers, or making special exceptions, or otherwise mucking about with the core rules.

 

PS: I started in 1985.

[Black Rose]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I wish I could say I had been playing HERO forever, but in reality I picked up the softbound 4th ed book in '92 or '93, couldn't wrap my head around all of the arconyms (OCV, DCV, AVLD, WTH?) and put it to the side while I got back to GURPS. Around about the time I realized that GURPS couldn't do the things I wanted it to do (too gritty), one of my friends (hey Nu Soard!) picked up the BGC Fuzion book. I was really impressed, since I liked the anime and was a moderate fan of InterLock (which likewise couldn't do what I wanted, in Cyberpunk or Mekton mode). Later he picked up C:NM, and I was blown away by the art - and Team Defender - but I noticed that the powers list was kind of... lacking. And then I read a footnote that said to use the HERO System Rulebook. And I thought to myself, "You know, I think I have that." Started reading it a little more deeply than in the past, and never looked back.

 

The thing I love most about HERO is this: I can do anything I want. After HERO, every other game book is nothing but reference material.

 

The one gripe I have with HERO relates to the thing I love most about it: because I can do anything I want, sometimes I'm paralyzed by too many choices. That can be very frustrating. But you know what? I still love HERO.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I've been playing since '81. A friend brought in V&V, we rolled up characters, but never used them because a week later someone brought in Champions. Hmmm... the exact character I want, or one I had to roll randomly*? It wasn't a hard choice. My V&V character made no sense at all: permanently invisible, electricity blasts, acquired powers by being bitten by a radioactive invisible electric eel or some nonsense.

 

1.) smooth system - after all this time anything I'd consider a wart has been reduced. There are things to nit-pick about but nothing that really bothers me anymore.

2.) I really CAN play the character I want.

3.) It REALLY IS useful for multiple genres

4.) It can be used in a realistic way or in a total fantasy way and both ways are fun.

5.) It has very good support. I have dozens of new Hero books that I've bought since 2003. I love them, they are well written, they flow and they give me a lot of ideas. There is enough ready made stuff in them to keep me going.

My main reasons are #'s 2, 3, and 4. I'd also add 2a: not only can you create the character you want, you can create the *world* you want. The rulebook doesn't have a built-in world that you have to use. And the genre/style/etc. that you want. No "magic works this way only" etc.

 

and 6) It's easy to adjust/house rule anything you need to.

 

And I still look at the D&D books in the store, just to marvel at how much money I've saved by not playing it anymore. Did you know they're up to about 50 Classes, 150 Races, and 600 Prestige Classes by now? And that doesn't include all the other non-WOTC and non D&D stuff. If they had HERO's rules, you could create all of that, and you wouldn't have to buy all those books.

 

*V&V did come up with better creation rules eventually.

[Force]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I have played D&D since 1977-1978. I have played Champions since 1981-1982.

 

Champions is the best system for a good four color comic book superhero campaign.

 

Champions allows you to build any character you want without levels.

 

You can make the hero system as complex or as simple as you want.

[Dust Raven]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I've been playing RPGs since the late 80s. Started with Gamma World, moved to Beyond the Supernatural, Rifts and Heroes Unlimited, dipped into Cyberpunk 2020 once or twice and even played Shadowrun once, and eventually gave in and played AD&D. Then in the early 90s I found some guys at a con playing something called Champions and joined in. I've played it ever since.

 

Well, okay, there was that one time I had absolutley no one to play Hero System stuff with and played Rifts instead, and recently I've toyed with the new D&D, but I've never given up on Hero.

 

Here's why:

 

If I want to play a sword swinging fighter of great and impressive skill who also happens to dabble in magic, I can.

 

If I want to play a power wizard, knowledgable in the arcane arts, but who can also wield a sword, I can.

 

If I see something cool on a TV show or movie, I don't have to write the authors and ask them how to do X and wait for the five suppliments to come out, I can go home and write it up immediately (or post something to the boards and write it up right after).

 

If I want the astral plane to work a certian way it does, and it's immediately apparent how the mechanics of the system interact with it making it easy to gauge system balance between characters who have access to it.

 

If I want to build a superhero, I can make an entirely unique creation not based on any existing hero from any comic. I can also, should I choose, mimic any superhero from any comic very easily.

 

If I wanted to play a guy with superpowers in a post-apolyptic setting where most character don't have them, I can and don't have to guess if my character is balanced with the rest of the group and playable in the campaign.

 

If I wanted to chat with a whole bunch of really cool, like-minded gamers and not have to duck, dodge disentangle myself from trolls, I can do that too.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Another great reason for me, personally to play HERO. Our group - dedicated HERO-philes. The years each of us started on the game....

 

1981 (first print first edition)

1981 (First edition)

1982 (First Edition)

1985 (2nd Ed - with 3rd just coming out)

1986 (3rd edition)

1989 (4th ed - just as it came out.)

 

So our group has a combined HERO Manyears of over a century. When everyone has been at the game so long, and has it down that well, why change?

[Dust Raven]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I suppose I should have mentioned my group in my post as well (sorry guys!).

 

I can't say it's the most important reason why I prefer Hero, but certainly the most important reason my group plays is because everybody is addicted to it. About a year ago I was getting kinda burnt out on running Champions and Hero System in general. Not that I didn't want to play it, just run it. I offered up a bunch of different alternatives, including D&D, Amber, Cyberpunk and a few other genres of the Hero System I hadn't done in a long time. Everybody unanimously picked Hero System in general, and the majority picked Champions. I still didn't want to run it, so someone else took over and ran for a while.

 

Basicaly the group as a whole would rather play Champions with an inexperience GM who ran the game way slow than play something other than Hero.

 

I love these guys.

[Eosin]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Hero system - it doesn't suck.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

That deserves some REP

 

Sadly

 

You have given out to much REP

 

Maybe some kind folks will help out until I can come around and hit you up.

[Eosin]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

PS - Jonny come lately c. 1990 and then again in 1992 for keeps.

 

A1: Cause it doesn't suck.

A2: With enough brain power it is possible to do anything, in any style, and do with class.

[Toadmaster]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

not quibble but GURPS dos not appear before 1986 a full 2 years after the seminal work of Justice Inc.that with Champions showed us the fundamentals of the system we have today . Gurps remains derivative in my mind

 

edit I suspect that Espionage may trump Justice Inc.

 

Actually I am told GURPS is largely based off the Fantasy Trip, which did pre-date Champions (1979 or 80?). However HERO obviously did play a part as SJ gave credit in the intro to GURPS. Also GURPS was in part around before 1986, Man to Man came out in 1985, it was basically the GURPS combat system and included a very simplistic version of what became GURPS as an RPG portion (basically just some combat related skills and experience), it worked great as a gladiator RPG. GURPS and HERO continue to influence each other although I suspect that a detailed study would eventually find that GURPS has become like HERO more than HERO has become like GURPS.

 

 

Yes Espionage was before Justice Inc, this may be off a little but should be close (and is in the correct order even if off on the year), as I recall the dates are Champions 1981, Espionage 1982, Justice Inc 1983, Fantasy HERO 1984, Danger International 1984 or 85, HERO as a Generic system 1989 or 90.

[Toadmaster]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I started playing D&D in 1977-78, followed by Traveller and Runequest, then I bought Champions at the Dundra Con in 1981 or 82 from (I'm guessing) Steve Peterson or George MacDonald. Didn't play it much, mostly just used it to design scantily clad female heroes costumes (come on now, I know I'm not the only one). In 1983 I finally found a group that played Champions in between other games, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Stalking the Night Fantastic, Aftermath, Daredevils, MERP, Morrow Project, Twilight 2000 and a few others (wow the early eighties were really good for gaming) that changed when Fantasy Hero and Danger International came out as we started playing HERO almost exclusively for several years. In 86 GURPS came along and diverted some of our gaming time away from HERO, but GURPS was not liked by all so it did not replace HERO. In 87 or 88 we sort of transitioned back to D&D as we had added a good DM to the group but he was much more comfortable with that system. When 4th ed came out (89-90?) we hit HERO again big time, unfortunately by the early 90's life was taking alot of our time and gaming was seriously reduced, in 95 my best gaming bud (and my co-conspirator to keep the group under HERO) died and much of my gaming interest did as well for many years after.

 

So the reasons for returning (well actually pretty much sticking with) HERO, besides the fact HERO is pretty Gnarly? I guess it would be I know it better than any other system except for BRP (Runequest, CoC), and I have alot of good memories tied up with the system. It doesn't hurt that it is very intuitive, and works for almost any game I want to play. Another aspect that I find is pretty much unique to HERO / GURPS is fiddling with character / item builds is almost as much fun as actually playing. In many aspects I think the system peaked with the 3rd Ed but the 4th and 5th editions have added worthwhile contributions and DoJ certainly deserves some thanks for getting us so much new material.

[ghost-angel]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I've only been playing 10 years but to echo the "I can play anything" sentiment...

 

I was in one of the local LGSs the other day (late, after a long day) with my wife and a friend. We were getting his B-day present and while they browsed I wandered the shelves (I don't like buying from them anymore, but they have a copy of Conquerors, Killers and Crooks I might have to go back and rescue) ... I ran across "DnD For Dummies" and made a comment on the sad affair if you need a dummies book...

 

The thing (guy, whatever) behind the counter piped up - "It's a good book actually, it's got a section on how to roleplay that I find helpful."

me: "Well," My mind did an instant flip here..."Ok, that can't be a bad thing, helping people with actual roleplaying skills."

Him: "yeah, it also helps with leveling and character creation." (Ok, I'm still thinking it's a good idea, it is DnD centric so that kind of stuff is to be expected) Then the bombshell: "Yep, like making sure they don't make poor choices like Acrobatics for a Cleric."

 

Hit the brakes. I took a breath, put the homicidal voice (which started to yell "Kill everything, kill 'em all, DIE YOU BASTARDS!!!") away ... I was tired and didn't want to get into an RPG debate with him, but the burning question that popped into my head...

 

"Why is an agile, acrobatic holy man a bad choice? Why can't any choice be viable for a character if a player wants the concept??"

 

Sigh. HERO: I can play the character *I* Want, not the one the system thinks I should have.

[tesuji]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

"Why is an agile, acrobatic holy man a bad choice? Why can't any choice be viable for a character if a player wants the concept??"

 

well, maybe because in a given SETTING it may well be that poor decisions yield poor results.

 

In ALIEN WARS (or whatever the name was for the alien bug wars scifi genre setting book HERo put out was) if you concept is " a hardened trained space marine who doesn't use guns but prefers to use boards with nails in it", then should you also be able to shake your head and scream about viablity of any character concept when in practice that proves to be less "viable" than the same marine who focuses on plasma guns and grenades?

 

The DND setting has SOME holy me (clerics) training in heavy armor and you just don't do a lot of acrobatics stuff in heavy armor. Such training is NOT normally a part of their teachings, hence it costs more to gain. So, a holy man OF THIS TYPE who still goes outside his order (so to speak) to gain the acrobatics will not be generally as good as the ones who don't choose contradictory and unrelated traits... much like thwe space marine with granades and plasma cannons probably does better than the one with nail-board-fu.

 

Now, if you envision a different setting, where acrobatic holy men are more common or some such, all you have to do is mention it to your GM and see if he wants that as a part of his game and if so, he will likely use the rules in PHB and DMG to add such to his setting for you. most likely, all this takes is adding a few skills to the cleric's list and possibly dropping the heavy armor training. Customizing classes is easy and encouraged in DND, to helkp you customize your campaign's setting to meet the desires of your group.

 

On the other hand, if your GM finds the notion of tumbling clerics not suited to his game, he will likely say "no", but then, the same GM would likely have just said no to the same character in HERO too.

 

BTW its been a while since I ran DnD so there might be, depending on whether its the default setting or faerun or ebberron etc, that there are deities whose followers gain "domain abilities" that make the acrobatic holt man more vioable anyway. They often include specific skills as class skills in their domain abilities.

 

and of course, one can certainly go for the bouncing cleric with multiclassing, like say rogue-cleric, a combo i have found quite effective in practice.

 

 

The idea of "don't do acrobatics as a cleric" isn't restricting a character concept, but rather pointing out that that particular approach "cleric class with acrobatic skills as focus" is an INEFFICIENT BUILD of that concept.

 

I would suspect you don't consider the various INEFFICIENT BUILD notions that exist in HERO to be "restricting to character concepts"?

[ghost-angel]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

If by Setting you mean Fantasy - I disagree 100%.

 

If be Setting you mean DnD, can't argue there.

 

On the idea of simply choosing a bad character idea to use in a setting, then yeah - some types are more viable to a Game than others, but the system itself (which is what was implied in the conversation I had) shouldn't consider it a bad idea.

 

And Ineffeciant Build to me says "There's a better way to build the concept you want." Not "The concept you want is bad, try another one."

 

I could build an Acrobatic Cleric in HERO for a Fantasy setting with my eyes closed and make it a viable, useful character to play. His remarks implied the opposite would be true in D20 DnD.

 

So in conclusion - no it's stupid, idiotic, moronic and I still want to back and bash his skull in with that nice leather bound DnD Rule book they had on the shelf there.

Edit: this comes off as a little harsh for the situation, and it is. I have issues with the guy already and he started to redeem himself then dug the hole deeper.

 

(on the other hand they had a really really nice Settler's Of Catan 10th Anniversary set.. but out of my range at $400)

[BNakagawa]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

It's hard to impress upon everyone just how revolutionary Champions was when it was first published.

 

Yes, TFT was around, but thanks to the massive spread of D&D, it barely made a ripple in the rpg pond. Thankfully, the concepts of build points and flexible character design were not lost on George MacDonald and company.

 

In short, this game made logical sense. Armor that didn't make you harder to hit, but made you harder to hurt. A system that let you build the character you wanted rather than rolling set after set, hoping you got something you could work with. A game system that played no favorites, allowing any concept an equal chance of their day in the sun.

 

I hadn't been playing RPGs for very long when I first encountered Champions, perhaps only 3 or 4 years. But instantly, I recognized that there was something here that I didn't consciously know that I was even looking for. I had found a system that spoke a language that I wanted to learn.

 

I had found a game that would let me express character concepts that are either devalued or flat out disallowed in other game systems. I found that Champions was liberating.

 

I guess I still do.

[Enforcer84]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

SInce 84

 

It's my favorite.

[Lemurion]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Since 1987, and I won't willingly go back. I'll play other systems but this is the one that's home. I run one session and people start clamoring for more, whether they've played it before or not. This is what gaming is about, having fun, and I can help more people have more fun more easily playing Hero than with any other game system.

 

Hero is it:

 

One game to rule them all, and to the table bring them.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I've been playing the Hero system since 1985 or so, and would pretty much echo what has been said about flexibility. But the other thing that has always impressed me about Hero is that in addition to flexibility it is balanced. I have been in D&D, Gamma World, Star Frontiers, and half a dozen other RPGs that, when they didn't suit the situation people made up house rules to cope with it. Well a lot of the time that broke the system. With Hero, you can build a world and populate it with characters that all work harmoniously together. Oh sure it isn't perfect, but it is SO much better than anything else that I can't complain.

 

_________________________________________________

"Some people spread happiness wherever they go. Others, whenever they go." - Oscar Wilde

[tesuji]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

 

If by Setting you mean Fantasy - I disagree 100%.

Fantasy is too broad a term to describe a single setting. its more a GENRE describing term and I would certainly say DND is a setting in the fantasyb genre.

 

if you don't think DnD falls into the category "fantasy" then I guess we have to part company there.

 

If be Setting you mean DnD, can't argue there.

maybe Greyhawk would be more accurate, for the core books, but DND is certainly by no probably quite a bit well known enough to be its own setting/sub-genre identifier.

 

On the idea of simply choosing a bad character idea to use in a setting, then yeah - some types are more viable to a Game than others, but the system itself (which is what was implied in the conversation I had) shouldn't consider it a bad idea.

by this do you mean that in a star hero game board with a nail in it guy should not be worse off than plasma cannon guy SYSTEMICALLY?

 

And Ineffeciant Build to me says "There's a better way to build the concept you want." Not "The concept you want is bad, try another one."

ands in DND there are ways to do acrobatic holy man that work, like multiclassing or using the druid as a better start. Possibly the most inefficient way to do it is to take the most non-acrobatic class and use it entirely, possible with diety and domain choices to make it even worse.

 

Apparently tho, that is pointed out in the manual you encountered?

 

I could build an Acrobatic Cleric in HERO for a Fantasy setting with my eyes closed and make it a viable, useful character to play. His remarks implied the opposite would be true in D20 DnD.

If the Gm in that game didn't want acrobatic clerics, its likely he wouldn't allow it. if the Gm in the DND game wanted acrobatic clerics, he would likely respond to his player's requests by showing them how to do it or even using the customized class rules in PHB/DMG to further enable it.

 

The comment did not say to me "this canhot be done".. see above.

So in conclusion - no it's stupid, idiotic, moronic and I still want to back and bash his skull in with that nice leather bound DnD Rule book they had on the shelf there.

wow. off your meds?

 

Edit: this comes off as a little harsh for the situation, and it is. I have issues with the guy already and he started to redeem himself then dug the hole deeper.

perhaps that explains some of it as it seems your beef and disagreement is more with the guy and the "system" or "setting" of DND is just your scapegoat for venting.

[ghost-angel]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

perhaps that explains some of it as it seems your beef and disagreement is more with the guy and the "system" or "setting" of DND is just your scapegoat for venting.

Part maybe..

 

I'm no fan of D20. I think it's a horrible system as it will never deliver what I want out of a game. That said, I don't begrudge people who enjoy and play it. If you're having fun, have fun.

 

What I really had a problem with was a For Dummies book telling a player how best to play the game - and I've no idea the actual contents I can just go off what the asshat behind the counter spouted out, which didn't impress me. Like I said I was starting to like the idea until he described how it hepled people build "effective" and "better" characters which smacks of "This is for power gaming..." to me.

[tesuji]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

What I really had a problem with was a For Dummies book telling a player how best to play the game - and I've no idea the actual contents I can just go off what the asshat behind the counter spouted out, which didn't impress me.

Well, i really gotta say, "how best to play the game" as well as specifically some efficiency information is exactly what i would expect in a tutorial or introductory product.

Like I said I was starting to like the idea until he described how it hepled people build "effective" and "better" characters which smacks of "This is for power gaming..." to me.

you know, i seem to remember a certain edition of HERO which had sidebars about "CON builds four ways" and so forth in the rulebook itself. :-)

 

But, seriously, with a DUMMIES guide to a game, you don't want to see it include basic info about EFFECTIVE builds when talking about the chargen system for a game as complex chargen wise as DND 3.x?

 

If there was a dummies guide to HERo, would you be all fussin' about it being "for power gamers" if it had a section talking about "effective characteristic buying" where it pointed out what every experienced HERO player has already figured out about characteristic break points and figured characteristics?

 

ME? thats EXACTLY one of the things i would want in a HERO for Dummies book, as it helps newbies bridge the somewhat extensive gap between their chargen-fu and the veterans. Thats at least part of what an intro guide should try to do, isn't it?

 

So i don't get where similar advice on effective builds for DND is an evil bad horrible thing.

 

Do you not think EFFECTIVE BUILDS is something HERO gamers pay attentiuon to and spend time working at and its just DND?

[ghost-angel]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Yea, I probably would complain is a HERO for Dummies went into "effective" builds. I guess I see part of the whole experience as learning how all the parts work together instead of being told "by the book" how a Power is built.

 

Take how many different suggestions someone gets when they ask "How do I..." -- if we had a Dummies Book on "Effective Builds" it would probably give "official" builds for everything thus removing the experience and the process of having the Player work with the system to create what they envision.

 

I don't think what you're talking about as "Effective Builds" is exclusive to any one system. I do think that HERO Gamers will use an ineffecient (or less effective) build over a more effecient one simply because it fits concept more (Skill Level vs DEX utility debate anyone...).

[Blue]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Coming back? Who left?

 

Well, ok, technically I did. There was a decade where I didn't game. But when I came back to it, because I might occasionally have to run something, this is the first thing I came back to. I still had all the older books, and I knew the character building mechanics inside out (even if I often improvised rules for combat when we weren't sure). And it's the one game that everyone in the new game group liked but that nobody was running.

[tesuji]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

 

Yea, I probably would complain is a HERO for Dummies went into "effective" builds. I guess I see part of the whole experience as learning how all the parts work together instead of being told "by the book" how a Power is built.

So, do you not like or fuss about all the copious examples of "built powers" In the rulebook or products like USPD 1 and 2 and so forth?

 

 

Take how many different suggestions someone gets when they ask "How do I..." -- if we had a Dummies Book on "Effective Builds" it would probably give "official" builds for everything thus removing the experience and the process of having the Player work with the system to create what they envision.

but there are examples of builds for many powers in the rulebook and various supplements already, just as "official" as anything you would find in a dummies book. I don't get what the problem is/would be.

 

I don't think what you're talking about as "Effective Builds" is exclusive to any one system. I do think that HERO Gamers will use an ineffecient (or less effective) build over a more effecient one simply because it fits concept more (Skill Level vs DEX utility debate anyone...).

 

I think that SOME HERO gamers will indeed, just as i know that SOME DND players will. I don't think either game can claim more (or a higher percentage) of either type, however. I have seen plenty of either type in both game's players and seen plenty of the ones who simply choose (from among the many concepts of characters they want to role play and which they will roleplay well) the ones which they percieve as "can be done efficiently" in the given system.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

In fairness to d20 and the Acrobatic Cleric, try building this character concept effectively (for any genre):

 

He's clumsy (DEX 5-8), weak (STR 5-8) and sicky (CON 5-8).

 

In d20, a character with below average STR, DEX and CON remains playable (with, of course, some disadvantages). Those drawbacks are very hard to overcome and be an effective character in Hero, at least assuming a typical game where combat is common.