If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

In fairness to d20 and the Acrobatic Cleric, try building this character concept effectively (for any genre):

 

He's clumsy (DEX 5-8), weak (STR 5-8) and sicky (CON 5-8).

 

In d20, a character with below average STR, DEX and CON remains playable (with, of course, some disadvantages). Those drawbacks are very hard to overcome and be an effective character in Hero, at least assuming a typical game where combat is common.

 

A lot of Valdorian Age characters would fit this bill...

[Lucius]

If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I started with the old gray book Champions first edition. I remember when I was in college and Champions II and then III came out.

 

I think it was Champions II that really hooked me. That introduced the "Gadget Pool" the ancestor of the Variable Power Pool. I saw that and said "Finally, a system that can do justice to magick!"

 

But I stay with Hero for all the virtues that have already been enumerated. Why repeat what everyone else has already said?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

(-: :-)

[Eosin]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

In d20' date=' a character with below average STR, DEX and CON remains playable (with, of course, some disadvantages). Those drawbacks are very hard to overcome and be an effective character in Hero, at least assuming a typical game where combat is common.[/quote']

 

 

I want to make sure that I have my bearings correct.

 

You want a low DEX, CON, & STR clerical character in Hero System, who despite his numerous handicaps remains combat effective?

 

I had a similar character concept once and it was a tough and expensive build to get the basics down. In the end, I sacraficed a bunch of the basics to get the effect that I wanted and the character just didn't have enough points to do other stuff well. Of course, I would question how combat effective he would be in d20 without magic items or buffs. Both of these cheaters could also be used in FH and in my mind would level the playing field.

[Trebuchet]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I started playing Champions in late '81 or early '82. (I'd played D&D, Traveller, AD&D, Boot Hill, Gamma World, Twilight 2000, and probably a half dozen others I forget). I enjoyed playing supers a lot, but the system didn't really click for me until Justice, Inc, came out and our gaming group ran our first pulp-era game. Fantasy campaigns followed. It was neat to be able to use other genres' material as a resource or inspiration, and the basic Hero system allowed any character concept to be designed and played.

 

I guess what ultimately sold me on Hero as a universal system was when I played a non-combatant character in Fantasy Hero. I ran a sage character who was fundamentally helpless in combat; and far from being useless like he'd have been in D&D (which wouldn't have allowed such a build in the first place) he was tremendously useful and became virtually the core of our group. All that from a elderly guy who was almost nothing but KS's and Languages; with only a minimal ability to use a staff in self-defense. At last! No Character Classes! No Levels! No arbitrary builds or minimums ("Sorry, you can't be a paladin, your charisma is too low.").

 

Of course, the support from the gang at DoJ upon Hero's resurrection has been phenomenal. Where else can you post a rules question and get a response from the game's actual designer in 24 hours or less? Where else can you make a feature request for software and have it implemented literally the next day? Where else do the game's designers share their own campaigns and role-playing experiences? Where else will the designers stea... er, borrow good ideas you've posted and incorporate them into future products (And don't anyone get the idea that upsets me; on the contrary it flatters me immensely!).

 

I can't even imagine going to another system at this juncture.

[Silverbullet]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Quick one...

 

I first tried Hero in 1990, after playing others for years. A friend of mine was a Hero junkie and almost refused to play anything else. Well after trying the system out I found myself taking other character is other games I was into (Shadowrun comes to mind as the most prominent example) and recreating them with Hero. I ran for almost 4 years a Hero system Horror/Supernatural game using the system and it’s still my favorite… but then it’s pretty much everyone’s favorite who’s here too…

 

 

Oh yeah, great topic...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I want to make sure that I have my bearings correct.

 

You want a low DEX, CON, & STR clerical character in Hero System, who despite his numerous handicaps remains combat effective?

 

I had a similar character concept once and it was a tough and expensive build to get the basics down. In the end, I sacraficed a bunch of the basics to get the effect that I wanted and the character just didn't have enough points to do other stuff well. Of course, I would question how combat effective he would be in d20 without magic items or buffs. Both of these cheaters could also be used in FH and in my mind would level the playing field.

 

My comment is a response to the D&D "acrobatic cleric is inefficient" concern. True, the player of the acrobatic cleric will sacrifice something in terms of efficiency. However, Hero also has concepts that sacrifice something in terms of efficiency.

 

Your comments above bear that out. Sure, you can build a low physical stats character and make him effective, but it will be "a tough and expensive build". In other words, an inefficient build - just like the acrobatic cleric in D&D.

 

A low DEX, low CON, low STR character in d20 might be a reasonably effective wizard. He won't be using his STR much anyway, his hp suck to begin with so low CON only makes it a little worse, and a low DEX doesn't hurt his Magic Missiles, Fireballs or Lightning Bolts at all.

 

This isn't to place one system above the other, nor is it to say the flexibility of Hero is not considerably greater than most D20 games, as the Class/Level model builds in a lot of builds/concepts that are more, and less, efficient than others. But there are also builds and concepts that are more, or less, point-efficient in Hero.

[ghost-angel]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I once made a 45pt Bard for a Fantasy HERO that was neither tough nor physical. 8STR, 8BOD, 10CON, 10DEX. a few CSLs in Bows and I could participate in combat but most of the consrtuct was not built around the idea of fighting. Very cheap and turned out to be a very effective character.

 

The impression I got was that a Cleric with the Acrobatic Feat would be not only ineffective but just a plain bad idea, bodering on a waste of a Feat.

[Trebuchet]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

What I really had a problem with was a For Dummies book telling a player how best to play the game - and I've no idea the actual contents I can just go off what the asshat behind the counter spouted out' date=' which didn't impress me. Like I said I was starting to like the idea until he described how it hepled people build "effective" and "better" characters which smacks of "This is for power gaming..." to me.[/quote']I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a "For Dummies" book for any game. Those of us who play Hero (especially for any length of time; which seems to be most of us on these boards) often forget that there was a time when role-playing was new to us and character design often seemed like quantum physics. d20 or D&D are often people's first exposure to the concept of role-playing; and a basic guide on fundamentals of character design and what mistakes not to make doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. How many times have we had new Hero players and/or GMs come on these boards and ask "How can I do...?"

 

Likewise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with building "efficient" characters so long as the efficiency doesn't overwhelm the core concept. How many even of us veterans haven't had another player say "If you do it this way, you'll save 3 points"? It's a point-based system; using those points efficiently does not preclude good role playing. Some of the best role-players I've ever met built wonderfully efficient designs; some of the worst RPers built the most flawed characters. These are two entirely different fields, not points on a continuum. Heck, I sometimes miss the old 'Goodman School of Character Design' sidebars from previous editions of Hero simply because they tacitly acknowledged that efficiency wasn't a bad word. A "Hero System Character Design School" for newbies might not be such a bad idea; either posted online here at or as a downloadable pdf. Sidekick simplifies the rules for new players; but provides little if any guidance on how to assemble all those rules into an actual player character.

[ghost-angel]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Eh, Like I said I was warming up to the idea and pretty much sold on the book when he started by decsribing it as "It goes through what roleplaying is, how to do it, introduction to gaming..." Etc... I was there - all over it. We should have that kind of book "Role Playing for Dummies" is a GREAT idea.

 

But it wasn't that, it was - if I got the gist of his exhuberant ranting right "Power Gaming DnD For Dummies." Which I'm not cool with.

[Toadmaster]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I once made a 45pt Bard for a Fantasy HERO that was neither tough nor physical. 8STR, 8BOD, 10CON, 10DEX. a few CSLs in Bows and I could participate in combat but most of the consrtuct was not built around the idea of fighting. Very cheap and turned out to be a very effective character.

 

The impression I got was that a Cleric with the Acrobatic Feat would be not only ineffective but just a plain bad idea, bodering on a waste of a Feat.

 

 

I think people have grabbed onto a different idea than you, when I read your first comments my thought was you were reacting to a book basically saying here is how you role play, immediately followed up by using a less efficient character design is wrong. Anyway that is what I picked up on and that would annoy me as well. While any game is certainly capable of min-maxing and HERO is definately not immune, I have always felt d20 actually encourages the idea. HERO does provide some benefit for not using the most efficient build (lims, disads etc) while there is really no mechanism in d20 to do so.

[Trebuchet]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Eh, Like I said I was warming up to the idea and pretty much sold on the book when he started by decsribing it as "It goes through what roleplaying is, how to do it, introduction to gaming..." Etc... I was there - all over it. We should have that kind of book "Role Playing for Dummies" is a GREAT idea.

 

But it wasn't that, it was - if I got the gist of his exhuberant ranting right "Power Gaming DnD For Dummies." Which I'm not cool with.

We're on the same page I think. But there's a small evil part of me which hopes such a book will attract as many powergamers as possible to d20 and keep them away from Hero. Lord only knows we've got enough powergamers of our own already; when you get right down to it Hero is probably more susceptible to abusive powerbuilds than d20. If an official bound "Asshat's Guide to d20 Powergaming" will pull (or keep) them away from Hero, so much the better.

[ghost-angel]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I think people have grabbed onto a different idea than you' date=' when I read your first comments my thought was you were reacting to a book basically saying here is how you role play, immediately followed up by using a less efficient character design is wrong. Anyway that is what I picked up on and that would annoy me as well. While any game is certainly capable of min-maxing and HERO is definately not immune, I have always felt d20 actually encourages the idea. HERO does provide some benefit for not using the most efficient build (lims, disads etc) while there is really no mechanism in d20 to do so.[/quote']

Perhaps I was wording things poorly ... But yes, the idea I got was that the book encouraged people to power game. I've no problem with the idea that any game can be Power Gamed and Min/Maxed (I don't like Min/Maxing, but its there), any game or system can have more or less effecient methods of building a character - but I'd like to think neither build would be "wrong" while I got the idea that this book did just that - told you a less effecient build is in fact a wrong build.

[casualplayer]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

My Champions came in a box, with a grid map of a street scene that was almost but not quite as useless as the maps in Marvel Superheroes. Bought it from Comics & Comix in '82 or 83, and I think it was because of a good review in Dragon of all places. I had mail ordered V&V previously and been gaming for 3-4 years previously. My stoner uncle had loaned me Chainmail, Blackmoor and Eldritch Wizardry when I was like 8 and it fried my mind, too much too soon and probably had seeds in the bindings.

 

I have played many a HERO character with below 10 stats and piloted them to glory. D&D is not kind to the below average stat, and seriously the strongest halfling in the world should have maybe a 12 STR.

 

True story: I was gaming with the Dork Tower inspiration for Igor, and he was the GM. I had flat-rolled a 5 STR and some other decent stats. Halfling it is then! The first skirmish we get into and we get swarmed by a pack of dire wolves and 'Igor' turns to me and says "What do you do?" I tell him I scream like a girl and run for the tallest tree I think I can climb in a turn. He blinks several times while his brain reboots and he whispers "I've never had anyone run from combat before."

[Toadmaster]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

My Champions came in a box' date=' with a grid map of a street scene that was almost but not quite as useless as the maps in Marvel Superheroes. [/quote']

 

I loved those maps, I went to Dundracon one year and HERO is unloading those maps like crazy with any purchase. I think I bought Danger International (might have been Justice Inc) and grabbed a handful of the maps (maybe a 1/4" thick worth), the guy behind the table said thats not enough and grabbed another stack probably 1 1/2-2" thick and put them in the bag with my purchase. We used those maps for many years after that, all taped together to cover a table.

[casualplayer]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I loved those maps' date=' I went to Dundracon one year and HERO is unloading those maps like crazy with any purchase. I think I bought Danger International (might have been Justice Inc) and grabbed a handful of the maps (maybe a 1/4" thick worth), the guy behind the table said thats not enough and grabbed another stack probably 1 1/2-2" thick and put them in the bag with my purchase. We used those maps for many years after that, all taped together to cover a table. [/quote']

 

The just grid side was awesome. I laminated mine so I could reuse it. Then I discovered an engineering store that sold gridpaper the size of butcher paper. The cityscape side had the vanishing point and the perspective in a weird spot, made me naseous.

[Dust Raven]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Customizing classes is easy and encouraged in DND' date=' to helkp you customize your campaign's setting to meet the desires of your group.[/quote']

 

Your post in general was good and I agree with everything you said except for this. I'm an experienced gamer and have a moderate amount of experienced with D&D specifically, especially since 3e came out. I would say that the D&D rules hardly encourage customizing classes, and the task is far from easy. There are "rules" for it in the DMG, but those rules are vague at best. More discussion is given to the ramifications of changing something than how to effectively change it. What's more, if you've ever played a game in the RPGA, customizing is not an option.

[Dust Raven]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

After learning Hero for the first time and playing it for a few years, our group broke up. I started my own Hero game with my as the GM among other friends of mine who usually played other games and things went well, though we didn't play very often. Eventually, everyone moved, including me, and there was no more Hero games.

 

A few years later, I was in the mood for a game, and so were a few of my friends, and I offered to run something, but only if it was Hero or Rifts. They chose Rifts, so that's what I ran. We had fun, but occasionally came into conflict with the rules. There were large holes in it, or seemed to be at least. There were some inconsistancies, but nothing I could quite put my finger on or explain.

 

Eventually that game fell apart and a friend offered to run Nightbane (another Palladium game). He needed time to put it all together though, so I offered to run a simple Champions game for the two months he needed to set it up. Almost a year later, he remembered his other game and we got it started.

 

Well, the transition back to a Palladium game wasn't so smooth. I didn't particularly like the idea of rolling up my stats, but maybe that's because I rolled a lot of average numbers and the munchkin guy managed to roll all high stats. Maybe it's the same thing. Anyway, I remember trying to put a character together and noticing that even if I was allowed to pick everything and not randomly roll my powers and features I couldn't get what I wanted. The idea was to have a character with wings, but all the winged abilities had my character flying almost as slow as he could run. If I wanted to fly faster, I need insect wings (which I definately didn't want) or have a giant propeller strapped to my back (which would be stupid). The munckin chose the propeller of course. Anyway, it went on like this, and affected just about everyone. Everybody got interesting characters, but nobody got what they had in mind, including the GM.

 

So a few weeks later, we started playing Champions again, and everybody who wanted wings got them, and were able to go as fast as they wanted to go.

 

Just thought I'd share that little story.

 

[Chris Henry]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Since 1989, when I discovered that a system could be universal in one book...

 

Reasons I keep coming back:

 

1) The current DOJ/Hero emphasizes substance over style, in a sometimes excessively stylish market. I'm not saying I'd complain about full-color Hero System hardcovers, just that it's not as important as the material inside.

 

2) Technology - Hero embraced technology earlier than most, and it shows in how advanced the character generator is. Compare Hero Designer and GURPS Character Assistant side by side sometime.

 

3) Steve Long has time to answer questions....and even write and edit. He must be cloned!

 

4) Almost any character can be built with just the core rulebook. The closest rival still requires two books for that.

[tesuji]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

 

I would say that the D&D rules hardly encourage customizing classes, and the task is far from easy.

I have done it several times as a GM of a campaign and seen it done in two campaigns i ran in. in all of these cases it was handled in seconds, maybe minutes, and never caused a problem. I would have to say EASy is what it has proven in practice to be for myself and at least three other DND GMs i know.

 

Which is of course, not to say anything will be easy for everyone.

 

There are "rules" for it in the DMG, but those rules are vague at best.

I don't recall finding them vague. They don't use a point buy system or anything like that, but they are pretty clear.

More discussion is given to the ramifications of changing something than how to effectively change it. What's more, if you've ever played a game in the RPGA, customizing is not an option.

 

Well in my experience tournaments often have more restrictive rules than regular games do, part of the hassle of making a "competition" out of a game. Basically, the role of the tournament rules is to make the "campaign decisions" a Gm would normally make so as to keep everyone on a more or less even footing. HERO doesn't have this sort of organized national competition as far as I know, so we cannot be sure, but I would suspect that if they did it would also be a trifle more restrictive than the basic rules too, for the same reasons.

[Dust Raven]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I have done it several times as a GM of a campaign and seen it done in two campaigns i ran in. in all of these cases it was handled in seconds, maybe minutes, and never caused a problem. I would have to say EASy is what it has proven in practice to be for myself and at least three other DND GMs i know.

 

Which is of course, not to say anything will be easy for everyone.

That's no biggie. I too have customized my campaigns and done so rather quickly and easily. That's not to say the rules on the matter were clear or told me what to do. In fact, the rules really had nothing to do with my decisions. I had to make up stuff as I went along and used my best judgement as a guide. As you say, very easy, but I wasn't useing rules at that point.

 

 

I don't recall finding them vague. They don't use a point buy system or anything like that, but they are pretty clear.

I think we just disagree on this. Again, I suppose I could reread the rules and see if they seem more clear now than the other five or six times I went over them, but I don't see the use in doing so.

 

 

Well in my experience tournaments often have more restrictive rules than regular games do, part of the hassle of making a "competition" out of a game. Basically, the role of the tournament rules is to make the "campaign decisions" a Gm would normally make so as to keep everyone on a more or less even footing. HERO doesn't have this sort of organized national competition as far as I know, so we cannot be sure, but I would suspect that if they did it would also be a trifle more restrictive than the basic rules too, for the same reasons.

 

Agreed here, as far as tournaments go. The RPGA does more than tournaments though.

[Gadodel]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

I've only been using HERO for almost two years now. Every time I open the books I learn something new and can visual various ways that whatever I am reading can come up in play. This means that the game is only limited by the Game Master and the Players using it. The game is driven by the people and not the rules book. And I think this is why Chargen is the most alluring part of the game for the folks who play it.

[Sketchpad]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Started playing Hero in '85 when a co-GM and I wanted to try a different approach on systems. Started playing Champions and gather material for it and, before long, we were hooked. Since then, I've weaved in and out of the game, playing a few different things here and there, but always returning to my 3d6 Addiction Why come back? It's versitile, interesting and fun. I can make anything in the game and enjoy some of the challenges that people give me to make ... as well as slowly teaching the Sketchettes how to play

[tesuji]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

 

That's no biggie. I too have customized my campaigns and done so rather quickly and easily. That's not to say the rules on the matter were clear or told me what to do. In fact, the rules really had nothing to do with my decisions. I had to make up stuff as I went along and used my best judgement as a guide. As you say, very easy, but I wasn't useing rules at that point.

Actually, as ai recall it, thats pretty much what the rules say to do, decide what you feel is correct, use your best judgement and proceed. Like i said, DND doesn't have a point system or such (by design) and so most of the customization is done by going straight to the "decide what you want and use your best judgement" stage.

 

I think we just disagree on this. Again, I suppose I could reread the rules and see if they seem more clear now than the other five or six times I went over them, but I don't see the use in doing so.

Actually, it seems like you got them pretty well, in practice perhaps, so i begin to wonder if we are disagreeing on what vague means? The rules don't tell you "if A then B" or give you a point value formula to balance out mathematically, but that doesn't make them vague in my book.

 

The basic rule of creating things in DND is figure out what you want and use your best judgement. there are a few becnhmarks here and there but mostly its "analysis by comparison".

Agreed here, as far as tournaments go. The RPGA does more than tournaments though.

 

All i know about them is what i once in a great while read at conventions. I know they had some sort of nations play in games at cons thingy where you got points and so forth, which i assumes fit the term tournament in a loose sense. perhaps i should have used the word "competition"? I think one or two people i know have actually competed in their events at some point, maybe? The vast majority haven't.

 

Anyway, along this line of reasoning, since you bring it up, do you consider RPGA events as "representative" of typical DND gaming? is that why you bring it up? Were/Are the DND games you participated in and run restricted to RPGA rules, for instance? Do you find that common?

[CorpCommander]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

Thanks for all the amazing responses. I had no idea I'd get this many from a simple post.

 

Steve Long has been accused of being a rules writing robot but I think we all know his secret: a room full of writers and him with the key and compromising photos in Safety Deposit Box!

 

I purposefully didn't diss any other system in my original posting. Every system has its fans for a multitude of reasons. While I can't stand other systems I can appreciate what it is to love a system in spite of its disadvantages.

 

I know with Hero when I look at a situation, scenario, unique gadget idea... I instantly start thinking about how that would be incorporated into a game.

 

I think that alone will always make me return to this system.

 

--P

[Dust Raven]

Re: If YOU have been playing Hero since the 80's why do you still keep coming back?

 

This means that the game is only limited by the Game Master and the Players using it. The game is driven by the people and not the rules book.

 

I have to second this (repped) statement. It's this aspect of Hero that makes is the best game on the planet, and one where no other game even comes close.

 

It's also the worst aspect of the game, as it almost requires it's players to use their imagination and think for themselves and be original and unique. Personally, I think this is a good thing, but others prefer a game they can just pull out of a box and play.