"Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

[OddHat]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

7. It's a game. It's make believe. Villains aren't actually killing people. Gods aren't actually doing battle. Nothing of importance in the real world is being decided this particular afternoon at this particular gaming table. Lighten thy burden and thine mood.

 

I was reminded recently that the very idea of Heroic Fiction can be seen as blasphemous, and that an appearance by an angel or G_d as explicitly so. I'd make sure that none of my players held the second view before including supernatural elements in the game, or ask that player to move on to another group if such elements were central to the campaign.

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

One of the things I sometimes do in campaign settings is change the names of religious themed beings and locations in much the same way we might encounter "Brittania Spheres" as a pseudonymous pop icon "stand in".

So, an astral traveling PC might visit "Haven" or "Inferno" instead of Heaven and H*ll. There might be a non-corporeal unseen entity referred to as "Good" or "the Greater Good", sidestepping all those real world theological landmines.

 

I haven't done it much, but it does help to reduce the "you're not representing that real world religion properly" comments.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I'd rather represent the religion realistically (at least as I see it) and have a discussion with anyone who's offended by my treatment than put a muzzle on it.

 

That said, there are lines of taste where I really don't want to cross (PC: "I use my seduction skills on the angel. Can we produce a nephilim?"). But portraying subjects like religion interest me and add depth and verisimilitude to a campaign.

[proditor]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Ya know, one thing has bugged for a while about one of the assertions made about Christianity and icons (Weapons, idols, etc.) not being "empowered" in true chritianity because that is counter to the message of the faith.

 

Well...no. I was raised Catholic and the idea of icons and holy relics is very much a part of the dogma. A lot of the "branches" off of the Catholic church took a different view towards icons and idolatry, but one of the main ones (Catholicism) did not. The modern church has taken a very political and realistic view towards icons, IE: Whether they are geniune or not, people's faith makes them holy.

 

That said, I finished my own decisions on Eucharist and the main one was that I wanted to see if the player would be willing to meet me half way. Since no one would believe he had the true Spear of Longinus, and the veracity of the Austrian spear is in doubt, I'm suggesting that we make it more like a character from Godlike. The PC BELIEVES it is the Spear, so quite simply, it is. Period. If his faith is shaken, then it is just another pig-sticker. But as long as he believes, well it is a weapon of G_d, able to do wondrous things in his name.

[Egyptoid]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I'm not saying dont do this.

 

I'm saying if you do run these ideas, run them in moderation.

[assault]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Frankly, I would avoid the whole issue.

 

If there are players in the group who are likely to care about such things, I would make sure that the game stayed strictly "scientific".

 

Of course the only way I would be in a FtF game with such folks would be at a Con or some other context where you end up gaming with strangers. My general social milieu isn't all that religious.

[OddHat]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Ya know, one thing has bugged for a while about one of the assertions made about Christianity and icons (Weapons, idols, etc.) not being "empowered" in true chritianity because that is counter to the message of the faith.

 

Well...no. I was raised Catholic and the idea of icons and holy relics is very much a part of the dogma. A lot of the "branches" off of the Catholic church took a different view towards icons and idolatry, but one of the main ones (Catholicism) did not. The modern church has taken a very political and realistic view towards icons, IE: Whether they are geniune or not, people's faith makes them holy.

 

Yes, but that's the thing about dogma. Dogmatic folks are convinced that only their own can be "true".

[Dynamo]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Yes' date=' but that's the thing about dogma. Dogmatic folks are convinced that only their own can be "true".[/quote']Until seemingly random events force you to reevaluate your beliefs.

 

Your karma has just run over your dogma.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I have.

 

Actual worshipers, or people who have adopted their names? I'm not saying your wrong, but I've never heard of such people. The closest thing I've come into contact with is someone who uses the Greek Pantheon as a metiphysical representation of human nature and their personal philosophy. But that person was kinda wacked (his "wackedness" was unrelated to his involvement with the pantheon though, he was just wacked in general, so I don't really consider what he did as worship).

[Dynamo]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Actual worshipers' date=' or people who have adopted their names?[...']

I personally know a woman who venerates Diana/Artemis as the embodiment of Woman as untameable free spirit and hunter/provider. Mean shot with a bow, too. I wouldn't want her to think I threatened her or her loved ones.

 

EDIT: We're getting off topic, I think. Let's not get this thread moved to NGD.

[Kirby]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I had created a character nearly two years ago in this thread though nothing came from it. The Champions Universe definitely needs some characters who could affect the vulnerabilities to holy attacks/powers that many evil NPCs have.

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I had created a character nearly two years ago in this thread though nothing came from it. The Champions Universe definitely needs some characters would could affect the vulnerabilities to holy attacks/powers that many evil NPCs have.

I know there's a "fallen" angel in the Vibora Bay book, don't know about any holy NPCs in the CU, though there are references.

 

Warrior Nun Areala(or Aureolae, as we used to call her) is a fun look at a "holy" superagency.

There are a variety of examples in anime, and of course a few in Marvel/DC.

[Lucius]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

We're getting off topic' date=' I think. Let's not get this thread moved to NGD.[/quote']

 

Good point.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have anything much to add to the actual topic.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary observes that Lucius is currently figuring out how to play a character who is Jewish/Shinto/Buddhist

[Justicebringer]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I placed a variant of the Christian themed SG Rapture from the old Elmentals series in my time-line. They were introduced to the public on the 700 club and then a few weeks later destroyed an abortion clinic. My players haven't run across them yet though, perhaps in time.

[Alverant]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I placed a variant of the Christian themed SG Rapture from the old Elmentals series in my time-line. They were introduced to the public on the 700 club and then a few weeks later destroyed an abortion clinic. My players haven't run across them yet though' date=' perhaps in time.[/quote']

Wouldn't that be considered terrorism, making them villains? That is something that hasn't been addressed here, religious themed villains. I don't mean worshipers of evil religions, I mean fanatics of a good religion who break the laws of man (freedom of religion, press, speach, etc) to enforce the laws of their god. You'd have to be more careful here because you'd have to seperate the extremists from the regular people and not be perceived as attacking that faith. You don't even have to be human enemies. One of the books from 4th edition mentioned an angel attacking a porn shop.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Wouldn't that be considered terrorism' date=' making them villains? That is something that hasn't been addressed here, religious themed villains. I don't mean worshipers of evil religions, I mean fanatics of a good religion who break the laws of man (freedom of religion, press, speach, etc) to enforce the laws of their god. You'd have to be more careful here because you'd have to seperate the extremists from the regular people and not be perceived as attacking that faith. You don't even have to be human enemies. One of the books from 4th edition mentioned an angel attacking a porn shop.[/quote']

 

Hoping I don't derail this thread, but -- First of all: that book was The Mystic World, and for all we know, it could have been a Jewish or Muslim angel.

 

Secondly, I stayed away from villains because (a) as a player, I prefer heroes, and ( I usually don't have any trouble finding Generic Evil Christians in role-playing games (go and read any of about a hundred or so old WW supplements for an example). I get as tired of the standard evil bible-banger as I do of the generic murderous Muslim terrorist. ("Why is he a terrorist?" "Because he's a Muslim. And he's a fundamentalist. And he's evil!")

 

Now, bad guys from any faith or none at all who have actual reasons for their villainy beyond belonging to a religion/philosophy that the creator doesn't like are something else again. That is what you were saying, and I agree with you; the problme is that rather few such characters seem to have a reason other than to illustrate that "all members of Group X are Satan."

 

Though a villainous angel might make for a nice change of pace, depending on how it was done (there's a villainous sort-of angel in Vibora Bay). But they'd be less deliberately malevolent than just inflexible and savage. More forces of nature than people, is how I see it.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

For the record, the Chaplain has an angelic motif in Villainy Amok, though we're purposefully vague on his background. :-)

[Alverant]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Hoping I don't derail this thread' date=' but -- First of all: that book was [i']The Mystic World[/i], and for all we know, it could have been a Jewish or Muslim angel.

 

I thought it was also in Ultimate Supermage. A lot of the material was carried over to 5th edition. Doesn't really matter. Ultimate Mystic and Mystic World cover most of USM. Also I didn't say what kind of angel it was. They all pretty much have the standard impossible for mere mortals to meet.

 

Secondly' date=' I stayed away from villains because (a) as a player, I prefer heroes, and ( I usually don't have any trouble finding Generic Evil Christians in role-playing games (go and read any of about a hundred or so old WW supplements for an example). I get as tired of the standard evil bible-banger as I do of the generic murderous Muslim terrorist. ("Why is he a terrorist?" "Because he's a Muslim. And he's a fundamentalist. And he's [b']evil[/b]!")

 

The idea I was trying to bring up is having a villain who is doing what they think is best and can't quite grasp the fact not everyone has to agree with him. Put this villain in a nice setting where nothing "provokes" him and he'll hang up the tights and stop being a superbeing or even become a helpful person working at a soup kitchen or free hospital. That's what I mean, someone who sees themselves as a hero who is defending their morals. This is "ends justify the means" as well as "means justify the end". I get the impression that the Rapture SG would fight to stop bank robberies, but doing good in that instance doesn't mean their other acts or ultimate goal is good either.

 

Now' date=' bad guys from any faith or none at all who have actual reasons for their villainy beyond belonging to a religion/philosophy that the creator doesn't like are something else again. That is what you were saying, and I agree with you; the problme is that rather few such characters seem to have a reason other than to illustrate that "all members of Group X are Satan."[/quote']

 

I disagree. First it rarely stops with Group X. If Group X is eliminated, banished, imprisoned there is "all members of Group Y aren't as bad as Group X but is still Satan". Second they can have an agenda greater than wiping out a certain group. For instance in the recent Justice Leage Unlimited episode "Patriot Act" a general takes a super serum to defend America against the Justice League. His agenda was to keep America the most powerful force (militarily) on the planet. The JL is the Group X. His immediate goal was to disolve the JL or put it under US control. Let's say he does so. What then? Well there are other nations in the world that could threaten the US. Things would be easier if we took them over. Then what? Well there are alien civilizations that could pose a threat to Earth thus the US. So he'd start working on that.

 

See my point? There's no reason why a villain with religious motivations can't be as deep as any other. I'd even say they should be deeper since too many villain motivations are more like "have enough money to retire". The problem with doing so is two fold. First you risk offending the readers who are members of that faith. Then you risk having readers who don't see the villain as being evil or even think the villain's plan is a good idea.

[Justicebringer]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I never meant to offend, but heroes to some are villians to others. Any group good, evil or inbetween taken to an extreme is a bad thing. Though on the other side of that coin no matter what the outcome of their actions there will always be some group that will find them to be "their" heroes.

[Kristopher]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I thought it was also in Ultimate Supermage. A lot of the material was carried over to 5th edition. Doesn't really matter. Ultimate Mystic and Mystic World cover most of USM. Also I didn't say what kind of angel it was. They all pretty much have the standard impossible for mere mortals to meet.

 

One of the things I tried to make different about Saviel was that she actually has some regard for humans, and isn't the type to moralize endlessly.

 

 

The idea I was trying to bring up is having a villain who is doing what they think is best and can't quite grasp the fact not everyone has to agree with him. Put this villain in a nice setting where nothing "provokes" him and he'll hang up the tights and stop being a superbeing or even become a helpful person working at a soup kitchen or free hospital. That's what I mean, someone who sees themselves as a hero who is defending their morals. This is "ends justify the means" as well as "means justify the end". I get the impression that the Rapture SG would fight to stop bank robberies, but doing good in that instance doesn't mean their other acts or ultimate goal is good either.

 

{snip}

 

See my point? There's no reason why a villain with religious motivations can't be as deep as any other. I'd even say they should be deeper since too many villain motivations are more like "have enough money to retire". The problem with doing so is two fold. First you risk offending the readers who are members of that faith. Then you risk having readers who don't see the villain as being evil or even think the villain's plan is a good idea.

 

I'm not sure why having the occasional character who readers have differing reactions towards, even to the point that they can't agree if he's hero or villain, is a "risk". I'd even say that it's often a good thing.

[GoldenAge]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

For many years I ran a game called Paladin Project.

 

It took place after a devastating 3rd World War (based entirely on the horror of terrorism - you might like to know that this game began around 1992, long before 911, but eerily mirroring the devastation that can be caused by organized terrorism).

 

The Catholic Church discovered that it had weathered the war better than most. As one of the richest organizations left in the world (and enjoying an increasing base, after a war and all) they decided to develop a policing entity that would help the world rebuild: The Paladin Project

 

Of course, as my players will tell you, it was much more convoluted than that. But, in essence the description holds true.

 

The bad guys were the remaining experimental paranormal beings created by various governments in attempts to battle a non-conventional war on a one-on-one basis.

 

The major players were:

 

Crusade: Power Armored bastion of good

Insight: Beautiful airborne mentalist

Halo: War hardened elder-hero

Grail: Street-level vigilante in search of justice

Incense: Ghost-like entity with smell based powers

Canon: Strong-arm of righteousness

7th Sign: The living end

 

Actually, I didn't force my players to adhere to religious iconography when building their characters, preferring rather to allow them to make anything that they would really enjoy. Thus, there were many characters recruited by the Church that had names like Deadbeat, Clouded Leopard, Ghostdancer, Vector, and many, many more. But, the comic we started (and still wish one day to finish) is based on those original 7 above.

[GoldenAge]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

The major players were:

 

Crusade: Power Armored bastion of good

Insight: Beautiful airborne mentalist

Halo: War hardened elder-hero

Grail: Street-level vigilante in search of justice

Incense: Ghost-like entity with smell based powers

Canon: Strong-arm of righteousness

7th Sign: The living end

 

Oops, I forgot to mention Beacon: A golden, cosmic level religeous entity (think a golden Silver Surfer with a red cross the entire length and width of his torso.) Crusade would be angry with me for the oversight (he has a temper)

[PhantomGM2602]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

As to "maturity" issues, meh. Religious themed Supers are part of the Comic Book Supers genre, and Religion is likely going to be part of a Supers life as per the demographics of the population. I wouldn't run or play in a Bible studies course disguised as a Supers campaign, but I'd be slightly annoyed if there weren't a fair number of religious supers out there, some of them devout.

 

As to "Is there a G_d in your campaign", the answer is yes, and his nature and true face remain a mystery. My real world beliefs have little to do with that choice; it's how I decided I wanted my campaign world to work, based on my prefered source material.

Instead of Christian Saints[which were human and only cannonized by the Catholic Church]Why not create heroes out of Angels?

By angels I meant :

Archangels: Gabriel,Micheal

Cherubium: Diplomatic angels or guardian angels

Seraphium:Warrior angels.Soldiers of the LORD

[Kirby]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Why not create heroes out of Angels?

For me, since the word "angel" means "messenger" / "messenger of God" I would do something different. Having stated that, feathery winged angels are a comic book staple so some GMs might enjoy that aspect; I personally wouldn't and would rather use Christians that are supers and decide to use a Christian theme. YMMV.

[OddHat]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

A quick and incomplete list of types of Christian Supers -

 

1) Angels

 

2) Saints

 

3) Otherwise normal humans touched by what they believe to be Divine power

 

4) Priests or Ministers trained to face Supernatural threats

 

5) Religious people who gain Super Powers from whatever source

 

I've used 3, 4, and 5. A staple of most of my campaigns is the idea that the Roman Catholic Church maintains the world's largest non-governmental group of metahumans ("The Order of Saint George"); this group mainly involves itself in disaster relief, humanitarian missions and fighting supernatural menaces, and the members do not seek publicity or personal acclaim.