Wisdom

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Wisdom

 

Distinctive Feature: Always spouting obscure aphorisms (Very Common, Strong) 20 points

 

That's a joke, but it's also a serious suggestion.

 

Here's one way to approach the question: Who in the source material has this wisdom you are trying to model? What is it they really have in game terms?

 

If it's just a personality thing, then don't bother, or make it a Psych Lim, or DF as above.

 

Also bear this strongly in mind: Just because d20 has their definitions of Wisdom and Intelligence doesn't mean those are the "one true" definitions, or even that those are the definitions that should be used for HERO.

 

My thoughts are to use INT and PRE - a wise person is going to be impressive to people, people want to listen to the wise. Interaction skills are quite appropriate, like Oratory to disseminate wisdom, and Conversation to gain insight into another person, perhaps even Diplomacy, Bureaucratics, and High Society or Streetwise - wise people know when to speak up, when to kiss up, and when to shut up.

[Lucius]

Wisdom

 

Distinctive Feature: Always spouting obscure aphorisms (Very Common, Strong) 20 points

.

 

Or perhaps scriptural references like the following?

 

My thoughts are to use INT and PRE - a wise person is going to be impressive to people, people want to listen to the wise.

 

"I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor riches to men of understanding, nor favor to men of skill. "

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary hopes I made my KS: Old Testament roll and got the quote right, or I'm going to be embarrassed.....

[Curufea]

Re: Wisdom

 

There is no such thing as a generically wise person.

People are wise on certain subjects depending on their areas of knowledge.

You can simulate this with a combination of high levels of KS and PS.

 

It's pretty much the same with intelligence. Intelligence varies by subject area and interest of the person. But in Hero, this can just be modifiers to the dice roll or skills.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Wisdom

 

Here's one way to approach the question: Who in the source material has this wisdom you are trying to model? What is it they really have in game terms?

 

Always good to be going to the player to ask exactly what they want - what they say doesn't always match with what they actually want in game terms.

 

However, wise, is something people want to attribute to certain character types - specially in heroic fantasy settings.

 

Also bear this strongly in mind: Just because d20 has their definitions of Wisdom and Intelligence doesn't mean those are the "one true" definitions' date=' or even that those are the definitions that should be used for HERO.[/quote']

 

Good god no. Obviously D20 uses wisdom as a stat. I was looking to get a handle on what game effects wisdom would have in Hero and what mechanics might be used to simulate that.

 

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: Wisdom

 

I fall on the GM'ing side of the fence.

 

For both highly intelligent and wise characters, INT is the Stat, since it affects perception and information processing. In both cases, such people come off as relatively intelligent - a person who picks up information really quickly and can process it comes off as smart, because he "knows a lot" wheras a person who can effectively process information comes across as smart in a different way but is still respected for "giving good advice".

 

So in my game, a character with a high INT defined as "smart" gets more information - I tell them things about what they see and interact with that I would not tell a dimmer character, like "the shiny metal thing looks silver, but you are pretty sure it isn't - it's too hard and too shiny. You don't know anyone who could make a thing like this." A character with a high INT defined as "wise" gets hints on what he knows, like "isn't that kind of the same as the stuff you saw on that guy Hobro?"

 

Globro the Dim just gets told it's round and shiny and no, there's no place to attach a chain so you can swing it like morningstar.

 

As always what information is given depends on what skills the PC has - even the smart guy isn't going to be told it's mithril unless he has metallurgy or something similar, or he was familiar with mithril.

 

cheers, Mark

[CourtFool]

Wisdom

 

Detect: Wisest Course of Action

 

…at least I would allow something like this in my game and treat it similarly to Common Sense from G.U.R.P.S.

[Maccabe]

Re: Wisdom

 

How about EXTRA PRE since most PRE skills involve the use of "wisdom"

ie-interaction skills.

Maybe even DEDUCTION; "Which is the wisest way to handle this?" (special insight)

[Kristopher]

Re: Wisdom

 

There is no such thing as a generically wise person.

People are wise on certain subjects depending on their areas of knowledge.

You can simulate this with a combination of high levels of KS and PS.

 

It's pretty much the same with intelligence. Intelligence varies by subject area and interest of the person. But in Hero, this can just be modifiers to the dice roll or skills.

 

Wisdom != knowledge.

Intelligence != knowledge.

 

There's a common view out there right now that there's not such thing as "intelligence" and that it's a lot of little things that get lumped together. Based on my experience, that's largely bull.

[Blue]

Re: Wisdom

 

INT is more of a modifier of how innately good a character is at various skills. I think the choice of KS basically determines whether someone is "Wise" or "Smart".

 

Here's how I'd define it: WISDOM is knowledge and abilities you (generally) learn through trial and error or by being shown; INTELLIGENCE is knowledge and abilities you learn through study or academic instruction.

 

Naturally there is some crossover, but for example..

 

WISE: Survival, Streetwise, KS: Poisonous Plants, KS: Indigenous Animals

SMART: Science, KS: Law, PS: Lawyer

 

If you want someone to be "wise" but not intelligent, leave the INT at 10 and buy up their knowledge skills.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Wisdom

 

Actually... as others have stated here... I think this really begs a bigger "What is role playing?" question.

 

I think some of us (and I fall into this camp) feel that the essence of role playing is "player based decision making." To that end, whether you are gamist, narrativist or simulationist (the preferences indicating why a player makes the decisions they do) it is still all about "player decision making." (You can engage in "acting" where you subsume the player into the character and do what the character does, but role playing is about taking on a persona and putting the player INTO the situation... so the PLAYER has to react through the avatar of the character.)

 

A player doesn't have to be strong and tough enough to swing a sword... but they do have to make the decision about when to swing that sword, why to swing that sword... when to run away instead, etc.

 

Wisdom... most often... is displayed through the decisions made. A wise character makes wise decisions.

 

So how do you reconcile defining mechanically a stat that, at it's heart is in that nebulous area of "decision making" which by this definition of role playing is not up to the character at all... it is up to the player.

 

While we can mechanistically try to represent wisdom... in most instances I think we are taking away the "player decision making" mode in doing so. Either the GM gives us big hints because we are "wise" or a Danger Sense roll tells us "Go with A, not B!'

 

In this case, we are "acting" more than "role playing" IMO. A wise character better have a wise player (or a really good bullsh!tter so they just appear wise).

[megaplayboy]

Re: Wisdom

 

I'm of two minds on that. On the one hand, good roleplaying (or at least the attempt) should be rewarded. On the other hand, a player who's a good roleplayer generally shouldn't be able to schmooze and BS their way into getting results their PC wouldn't logically or in-conception be able to get.

 

So, while it's a good idea to have wise characters RPed by wise players, it's not absolutely necessary, and finding ways to represent wisdom mechanically can be useful in-game, esp. to offset a player having a bad day. "Make an INT roll. Did you succeed? Okay, upon further reflection, that doesn't seem like such a wise idea to you." As long as it's not overdone, it accomplishes the effect of "Wodewick the Wise wawewy makes the wong choice."

[David Johnston]

Re: Wisdom

 

Paying points to get the occasional hint from the GM isn't going to destroy your roleplaying, whether you do it with my proposed "Common Sense" enhanced sense (which I'm heartbroken nobody critiqued) , or with established abilities like Danger Sense or Deduction. In fact it's far less of a roleplaying issue than the existence of Seduction skill.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Wisdom

 

I completely agree that SOME mechanical intrusion into "player decision making" will happen. This is a imaginary process of emulation after all. RPGs are not reality...

 

... but the level at which people are comfortable with mechanizing the decision making process of the character will be quite variable... and IMO the more you mechanize it, the less you are "role playing" in the sense I understand it.

 

We make decisions in Monopoly... "I landed on the Railroad, do I buy it, or save my money to buy Park Place?" but such a decision is not role playing... simply tactical winning. Role playing decision making is "if you were there, if it was real, if you were creating a narrative, if you were answering a challenge" and is so huge in scope and possibility... that is what makes Role Playing unique. Mechanizing it so you don't actually decide anything (as the player) you just make a roll and then do what the rules or GM tell you... minimizes the role playing experience.

 

Perhaps this is why systems struggle with such issues... because they are counter-intuitive to the role playing experience.

[Curufea]

Re: Wisdom

 

Wisdom != knowledge.

Intelligence != knowledge.

 

There's a common view out there right now that there's not such thing as "intelligence" and that it's a lot of little things that get lumped together. Based on my experience, that's largely bull.

Just thought I'd point out that I agree with you. But that has nothing to do with how to simulate wisdom or intelligence in the Hero System - which is what my post was about. The use of skills, "professional" or "knowledge" is a mechanic of the system used to determine success of an action. Even if that action is "choosing the right course of action".

Intelligence is the ability to learn, hence my talk of "interest" of the person. Bored people do not learn. Use of a skill to determine if a character learns something (or has "higher intelligence" on a particular subject) simulates this and is modifed by "interest" or other factors. You may get a -1 for a lecture or a +2 if the presenter is engaging and comedic.

[Mister E]

Re: Wisdom

 

First Day of a FantasyHERO Campaign

 

 

GM: Ok. So has everyone decided what classes they want to play?

 

Player#1: I'm going to play a cleric. Clerics are awesome.

 

GM: Oh, no. Sorry. Clerics have to have a 15+ Wisdom, and you aren't that good of a roleplayer. You'll have to pick something that is capible of making stupid decisions once in a while; and doesn't know, nor understand, what's going on around him.

 

Player#2: I want to play a wizard. Can I play a wizard?

 

GM: *coughs/snorts* Pffft... yeah right.

[David Johnston]

Re: Wisdom

 

Detect: Wisest Course of Action

 

…at least I would allow something like this in my game and treat it similarly to Common Sense from G.U.R.P.S.

 

 

Won't work. If you Detected the Wisest Course all it would do is tell you that there's one nearby. You'd need Discriminatory (and the mechanic would actually be closer to Intuition). I prefer Sense Folly.

[Mister E]

Re: Wisdom

 

Won't work. If you Detected the Wisest Course all it would do is tell you that there's one nearby. You'd need Discriminatory (and the mechanic would actually be closer to Intuition). I prefer Sense Folly.

It would be like giving Superman the ability to detect kryptonite.

 

 

First Day of a FantasyHERO Campaign

 

Player#3: I'd like to play a warrior, like Conan.

 

GM: You see, there's this thing called "suspension of disbelief..."

[Phil]

Re: Wisdom

 

If people have an issue with a game mechanical 'wisdom' interfering with the roleplaying experience, there obvious solution is to turn it around and make any decision made by the player of a wise character the correct decision.

 

In your scenario notes the green wire sets off the bomb. There are hints, there are clues, there was a bomb factory to uncover, there was a villain who would tell them as much. Captain Wise nonetheless decides to cut the green wire.... well, waddya know, cunning devil spotted all those false clues (they really were rather too obvious).

 

Clearly not a technique to use all the time, but it gives you an option

[Mister E]

Re: Wisdom

 

If people have an issue with a game mechanical 'wisdom' interfering with the roleplaying experience, there obvious solution is to turn it around and make any decision made by the player of a wise character the correct decision.

 

In your note the green wire sets off the bomb. There are hints, there are clues, there was a bomb factory to uncover, there was a villain who would tell them as much. Captain Wise nonetheless decides to cut the green wire.... well, waddya know, cunning devil spotted all those false clues (they really were rather too obvious).

 

Clearly not a technique to use all the time, but it gives you an option

Brilliant. And I don't say that often.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Wisdom

 

If people have an issue with a game mechanical 'wisdom' interfering with the roleplaying experience, there obvious solution is to turn it around and make any decision made by the player of a wise character the correct decision.

 

 

Actually this is much more up my alley as a GM. I do it all the time anyway... Illusionist Technique. The players decisions drive the game... whether they go left or right doesn't matter... the GM is prepared to have a scene occur either way. Simplified example, but it works. The wise character tends to make more "right calls" than others... very subtle but effective.

 

This is classic co-operative story telling. Instead of looking for ways to screw the characters based on their decisions, the GM is more likely trying to find ways to have their decisions work out... even if they don't appear to at first. In many cases it is not so much a matter of something as simple as "do I pull the switch or not" but more like "It seems that the proper way to investigate the missing jade statue would be to contact the local museum!" Now... you'd thought it was obvious that they PCs should go to China Town and this museum thing wasn't something you thought about... but the savvy GM will make up a local curator who is more than happy to tell them that the Jade Statue was donated by Qui Zhiang, the local tong leader... and now the PCs are right where you wanted them to be and feel "wise" in their decision to go to the museum!

[austenandrews]

Re: Wisdom

 

In roleplaying, everything is simulation. We can't create wisdom or intelligence through the rules any more than we can create laser blasts. That doesn't mean we can't simulate them. (Surely a group that debates the point costs of overcoats and flashlights will rate wisdom as worthy of consideration. )

 

Possible Wisdom Tricks:

 

Overall Levels - The character is wise enough to make good choices.

 

Telepathy, NND, Vague & Unclear - The character is wise enough to sense the thoughts, feelings and motivations of others.

 

Mind Control, Mood Only - The character says wise things to make someone calm, to motivate them, to agitate them, etc.

 

If people have an issue with a game mechanical 'wisdom' interfering with the roleplaying experience' date=' there obvious solution is to turn it around and make any decision made by the player of a wise character the correct decision.[/quote']

Very nice bit of reasoning from effect. Although it will certainly irk other players who had contended that the "wise character" was making the wrong decision. And it begs the question, what if two wise characters make two different decisions? I'd say the technique has enough potential for coolness to seek a resolution to those cases.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Wisdom

 

If people have an issue with a game mechanical 'wisdom' interfering with the roleplaying experience, there obvious solution is to turn it around and make any decision made by the player of a wise character the correct decision.

 

In your scenario notes the green wire sets off the bomb. There are hints, there are clues, there was a bomb factory to uncover, there was a villain who would tell them as much. Captain Wise nonetheless decides to cut the green wire.... well, waddya know, cunning devil spotted all those false clues (they really were rather too obvious).

 

Clearly not a technique to use all the time, but it gives you an option

Oh, heck! I do that all the bloody time! If I didn't my PCs wouldn't often outlive a single session.

[Kristopher]

Re: Wisdom

 

Oh' date=' heck! I do that all the bloody time! If I didn't my PCs wouldn't often outlive a single session. [/quote']

 

We typically let someone who ignores all the clues blow himself up...to get run over by Captain Obvious and his Magical Clue Bus, as it were.

 

People who've gamed in our group for a while tend to be a lot more on the ball than most gamers when it comes to not playing their characters as idiots. No offense to gamers at large, but there are a lot of gamers who play idiots and then expect the GM to have mercy on them.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Wisdom

 

Detect Stupid Idea (Sense, Range, Targetting, Discriminatory, Analyze, 360 Degrees), with a linked EB or KA.

 

*BLAM!*

"That was the DUMBEST plan I have ever heard!!"

[Ganesh]

Re: Wisdom

 

I'd be in favor of Luck, Requires Plausible Explanation.

 

The wise character makes a choice, or decides that they've prepaired something useful beforehand forseeing this possibility, gives a plausible explanation (or, in some games, quotes some bit of Taoist wisdom or the bible or some philosopher) related to why That's the Right Choice or How He Might Have Prepaired, and if he rolls well, lo and behold, there is something handy there.

 

This works better if the GM and player are willing to talk a bit about what precise course of action the character takes. I play a pretty descriptive style as a GM, and have a tendency to, if chararacters do clever things their players aren't clear on, adjust descriptions and narrate things accordingly.