Wisdom

[Doc Democracy]

So, what is it?

 

If a character's background involves being extremely wise, how is this modelled in the mechanics?

 

I guess this comes from me not being entirely sure what I (or many other people) mean when they say that something is wise...

 

 

[n] the trait of utilizing knowledge and experience with common sense and insight

[n] the quality of being prudent and sensible

[n] ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight

[n] accumulated knowledge or erudition or enlightenment

 

How do you even begin to bring common sense and insight into the game mechanics? An exotic sense??

 

 

Doc

[L. Marcus]

Re: Wisdom

 

Wisdom is, in my opinion, all in the roleplaying.

 

But maybe a few KSes won't come amiss?

 

Or with a SFX of Luck? Roll the dice, and if you got enough, the GM says "That would not be wise."

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Wisdom

 

Hmm... by those definitions I think that you could justify a number of different abilities as a manifestation of a character's "wisdom."

 

Starting with the Skill list, I'd say that Analyze could be expanded to include understanding of people's competence in non-combat areas, as a result of the character's understanding of human nature. Deduction could be an expression of wisdom, as could very broad categories of Knowledge Skills with very high rolls (so that details could be determined even with penalties), particularly KS: Groups and KS: People. Tactics might fit for certain character concepts. And Skill Levels with all such abilities would make sense.

 

Turning to Talents, Danger Sense is justifiable in some circumstances. I think some of the alternate versions of Resistance would reflect wisdom, such as Tight-Lipped (resists Conversation) or Immovable (resists Persuasion).

 

On the Powers front, sufficiently Limited Clairsentience, including Precognition and Retrocognition, could be the SFX of wisdom. Some Detects would have the same justification as Analyze above, as well as Enhanced Perception. Find Weakness might fit if it was Limited. Luck, especially some of its variant forms, is possible. Mental Defense could fit if it was Limited to attempts to influence or deceive (i.e. Mind Control and Mental Illusions). Telepathy Limited to surface thoughts could reflect a character's experience at "reading" people.

[Vondy]

Re: Wisdom

 

Like intelligence, wisdom is something you can only play it effectively if you have it. I don't think you can model something this ephemeral.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Wisdom

 

Wisdom is' date=' in my opinion, all in the roleplaying.[/quote']

 

Ideally that would be how I'd like it to play. My players aren't often that 'wise' though and some of their characters should be!

 

But maybe a few KSes won't come amiss?

 

That was one of the things I was looking at - I need a few broad categories to allow them to make rolls and get some GM wisdom hints...

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Wisdom

 

Turning to Talents' date=' Danger Sense is justifiable in some circumstances. I think some of the alternate versions of Resistance would reflect wisdom, such as Tight-Lipped (resists Conversation) or Immovable (resists Persuasion).[/quote']

 

Ooh. I know my mind was thinking exotic senses but I hadn't tripped over danger sense yet.

 

I think that a reasonable facsimile of wisdom would be knowing the danger of certain courses of action (non-combat danger of course).

 

Good idea!

 

 

Doc

[L. Marcus]

Re: Wisdom

 

Ooo! Ooo! PS: Sage!

[schir1964]

Re: Wisdom

 

So, what is it?

 

If a character's background involves being extremely wise, how is this modelled in the mechanics?

 

I guess this comes from me not being entirely sure what I (or many other people) mean when they say that something is wise...

 

How do you even begin to bring common sense and insight into the game mechanics? An exotic sense??

 

Doc

Classical Definition: Knowledge is possessing information, however, Wisdom is knowing How, When, and Where to use that information.

 

Based on that... Deduction, All Skill Enhancers, Clairsentience, and possibly Luck restricted to skill use.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Wisdom

 

I concur with the above, but I would also throw in high EGO, or at least bonuses to the EGO roll, since wise people generally have a lot of restraint. You might also give them (defensive) PRE since they will be less flappable than the inexperienced.

 

___________________________________________________________

"The fiction in her family was that she was never nice.

I'd say she was very, I just did not see the price." - S. Vega

[Dust Raven]

Re: Wisdom

 

I don't think there is any way to model wisdom in the game mechanics. Wisdom can be crudely defined as knowing how to make decisions. There is no mechanic for making decidions, it's all up to the player. Shoud a player lacking wisdom attempt to play a wise character, he can't exactly turn to the GM constantly and ask "is it better to attack with my optic blasts directly, indirectly or not at all?", or similar, for each and every action the character may take, especially if the GM is also lacking wisdom. Even if the GM is a sagely old wise man, suddenly the GM is playing the character because all of the decidion making is out of the player's hands.

 

My advice for playing a wise character: Either be wise yourself, attempt to act wise, or ask for more time to think through your character's actions than normal because of your concept.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Wisdom

 

I don't think there is any way to model wisdom in the game mechanics.

 

Surely that's a defeatist attitude - not like you at all!

 

Wisdom can be crudely defined as knowing how to make decisions. There is no mechanic for making decidions, it's all up to the player. Shoud a player lacking wisdom attempt to play a wise character, he can't exactly turn to the GM constantly and ask "is it better to attack with my optic blasts directly, indirectly or not at all?", or similar, for each and every action the character may take, especially if the GM is also lacking wisdom. Even if the GM is a sagely old wise man, suddenly the GM is playing the character because all of the decidion making is out of the player's hands.

 

My advice for playing a wise character: Either be wise yourself, attempt to act wise, or ask for more time to think through your character's actions than normal because of your concept.

 

I wouldn't like to pigeonhole my players (beyond the broad brush accusations of lacking wisdom that is!).

 

I would like my system to allow a player a chance of playing a wise character. If that means turning to the GM and making a roll on PS:Sage or whatever then being handed a quick precis of the choice(s) and likely concerns then so be it.

 

I would like there to be a framework to support a character who is more intelligent, more intuitive, or more wise than the player.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Wisdom

 

Well, to create a wise character, I'd be inclined to go with high INT.

 

1. It gives you good PER rolls, and the wise often notice what the unwise do not

 

2. Although it doesn't provide any knowledge per se it does allow a high 'general knowledge' roll which you could define as stuff the character knows instinctively rather than stuff that has been learned

 

I'd also make the EGO high as the wise often resist mental domination and suchlike very effectively.

 

Finally I'd beef up the PRE as the wise often veil their charisma but can turn it on when needed and influence more with a few well chosen words than a many others can with an entire speech.

 

So, wisdom to me is high INT, EGO and PER.

 

You can bolster that with all sorts of skills and powerw depending on how 'mystical' and 'otherworldly' you want the character to be - that's largely up to you. There are some excellent suggestions posted already.

 

You might want to give the especially wise a 30d6 selective AoE killing attack THAT THEY NEVER USE.

 

Now as for getting the character PLAYED wisely, can I suggest that you get some wise players? Dhalai Llama, maybe the Pope, you know, that kinda thing.

[Cancer]

Re: Wisdom

 

A wise character avoids combat where they might be killed. Therefore they only enter combats which are safe, or where the payoff is so high (or the alternative is so bad) that the risk of injury and death is acceptable.

 

This is why wise characters never appear in combat.

 

It is also why "wise" characters have an extremely short lifetime in a combat-oriented game. Such a character isn't in the genre and gets run off the table, or they get "surprised" by some hi-dex stealth punk (who got inserted into some place he could never penetrate, never mind how) and killed.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Wisdom

 

A wise character avoids combat where they might be killed. Therefore they only enter combats which are safe, or where the payoff is so high (or the alternative is so bad) that the risk of injury and death is acceptable.

 

This is why wise characters never appear in combat.

 

It is also why "wise" characters have an extremely short lifetime in a combat-oriented game. Such a character isn't in the genre and gets run off the table, or they get "surprised" by some hi-dex stealth punk (who got inserted into some place he could never penetrate, never mind how) and killed.

 

While I detect a note of bitterness in Cancer's post I think he makes a good point.

 

What is wisdom in an action adventure game? Is that the more pertinent question? I've often struggled with the idea of a "wise" character in a game where the point is combat/action/etc., most of which are unwise activities most of the time. Unless you are putting the character's in situations where the most wise person would always say, "We must fight as the alternative is too awful!" then the wise character is the one who knows not to get involved in the type of situations where RPGs have fun. Unless you are playing a serious political/social game... and in that case, Hero probably isn't the system for that. It doesn't concern itself with mechanically defined social interactions. Vague at best or powers that demonstrate total mental control.

 

I guess I really think the question is, "How do want Wisdom to play out in your game?" and then figure how it could work.

 

I do like the Danger Sense idea, though.

[Kristopher]

Re: Wisdom

 

Others have beat me to them, but my first thoughts on the matter:

 

1) Rollplaying

2) Deduction skill

3) Talents as appropriate

4) High EGO

[megaplayboy]

Re: Wisdom

 

well, if we can model something as subjective as physical attractiveness in the system, it seems like we should be able to model wisdom as well.

All of the above suggestions sound good. Giving the player a little extra time to make major decisions, allowing them an EGO or INT or deduction roll, etc.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Wisdom

 

well, if we can model something as subjective as physical attractiveness in the system, it seems like we should be able to model wisdom as well.

All of the above suggestions sound good. Giving the player a little extra time to make major decisions, allowing them an EGO or INT or deduction roll, etc.

 

But I don't think we model "physical attractiveness" at all. We assign a value to it... but what does that value mean? What mechanical interaction unique to the game does it create? None that I know of.

 

We can assign a "Wisdom" score all we want, but unless it is tied to something mechanical... like a Monk in D&D gets a Save Bonus based on Wisdom score... then it is just a number, not a model.

 

What we need to determine is something like "What does Wisdom do for you in the game" then create the mechanic (or pick a bunch of mechanics that perform aspects of that) and call that Wisdom. Most of the suggestion here follow that "use a variety of other mechanics" method, and I think that works best in Hero.

 

But again I'll say I really like the Danger Sense concept... though using it like that opens a whole can of worms.

[David Johnston]

Re: Wisdom

 

Common Sense: The character can tell when he's acting like a fool (the GM warns him when a course of action will likely lead to an unfavourable outcome

based on what he knows) Cost: 12 points

 

But I don't think we model "physical attractiveness" at all. We assign a value to it... but what does that value mean? What mechanical interaction unique to the game does it create? None that I know of.

 

 

Complimentary characteristic roll for Seduction.

Base characteristic for PS: Model.

Trigger for Psych Lims involving reactions toward people prettier than you.

 

That's about it.

[Old Man]

Re: Wisdom

 

A wise character avoids combat where they might be killed. Therefore they only enter combats which are safe, or where the payoff is so high (or the alternative is so bad) that the risk of injury and death is acceptable.

 

This is why wise characters never appear in combat.

 

It is also why "wise" characters have an extremely short lifetime in a combat-oriented game. Such a character isn't in the genre and gets run off the table, or they get "surprised" by some hi-dex stealth punk (who got inserted into some place he could never penetrate, never mind how) and killed.

 

Obi Wan Kenobi

Qui Gon Jin

 

You know, you're right. They only lasted what, 3-4 sessions?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Wisdom

 

But I don't think we model "physical attractiveness" at all. We assign a value to it... but what does that value mean? What mechanical interaction unique to the game does it create? None that I know of.

 

We can assign a "Wisdom" score all we want, but unless it is tied to something mechanical... like a Monk in D&D gets a Save Bonus based on Wisdom score... then it is just a number, not a model.

 

What we need to determine is something like "What does Wisdom do for you in the game" then create the mechanic (or pick a bunch of mechanics that perform aspects of that) and call that Wisdom. Most of the suggestion here follow that "use a variety of other mechanics" method, and I think that works best in Hero.

 

But again I'll say I really like the Danger Sense concept... though using it like that opens a whole can of worms.

 

 

well, you do get some benefits to having a high COM...for example, seducing someone into revealing more information than they should is a bit easier when one is highly alluring(COM roll complimentary to PRE skill roll(conversation, seduction)). Certain types of PRE attacks may give a bonus of +1d6 per 10 COM over 10.

Or, if you don't wish to use that, consider PRE as "fearlessness" or "charisma" or "impressiveness", all of which are fairly ephemeral qualities.

[Lucius]

Re: Wisdom

 

You might want to give the especially wise a 30d6 selective AoE killing attack THAT THEY NEVER USE.

 

.

 

Okay, I'm going to play the fool.

 

Why?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is thinking at both ends.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Wisdom

 

It is largely a roleplaying thing, but I think high Int, Ego (once you are wise in the ways of the world, they bother you quite a bit less), and various skills (certainly Deduction and KSs) also help to model wisdom in the traditional sense.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Wisdom

 

5 Skill Levels: usable with Deduction, Perception, Ego Rolls, and Knowledge Skills.

 

 

just a thunk

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Wisdom

 

Lotsa good suggestions for how to do it, so I won't bother, but I just wanted to chime in on the side of "It should be do-able" with game mechanics.

 

You can play a tatical genius, a ladies man, or a burly warrior if you aren't one in real life, so why not be able to play someone wiser than yourself?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Wisdom

 

How about an EGO based Skill: Understanding. A character with this skill is wise and is capable of understanding the fundimental ebb and flow of the events and actions surrounding him. Unlike Deduction, Understanding does not grant specific knowledge based on losely gathered facts. Instead it provides insight into the reason why something is happening or happened, or why another character is acting in a particular way.

 

Examples:

Malcolm is fightng against a fierce brute gone berserk. Wanting to better understand the brute's reason for being out of control, he rolls on his Understanding Skill. A successful roll reveals that, based on the brute's reactions to his friend Brian, Brian must have unknowingly done something to insult the brute. Brian stops fighting back and appologizes after being urged to do so by Malcolm, and the brute regains control of himself.

 

Later on, Malcolm is looking for someone who can help him track down a monster terrorizing the road outside his home small town. Common knowledge tells him to look first in several of the city's taverns. Upon arriving, he would like to know what type of person is likely to take him up on his offer. He'd need a fearless tracker, and likely one familiar with such monsters. Rolling on his Understanding Skill (and succeeding) he begins to scan the room for a man in well worn clothing and a certain look in his eye; the look of someone who has fought something inhuman and no longer fears it. Also, due to his successful roll, he can recognize such a look.

 

Meanwhile, Malcolm sees his friend Brian is once again causing trouble. The letch has gone and tried to steal the lady of a rather large man over near the bar. Making his Understanding Skill roll, he can tell the man has already been angered to the point of violence, and has begun reaching for a knife; both facts Brian seems blissfully unaware of. Malcolm resolves to interrupt, drawing the man's anger away from his friend. Knowing this will not stop the fight, Malcolm has already prepared a hidden dagger in the sleve of his shirt in order to defend himself long enough for Brian to draw his own weapon.