Yamo Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 I've seen a lot of character rips in the CU (Doctor Destroyer, Batman, Joker, Iron Man, Hulk, Punisher, etc). But is there a Superman? I know Silver Age Sentinels has an iconic square-jawed flying brick in tights and a flashy cape who kicks more butt that just about everybody and stands for Truth, Justice and the whole shebang. What about Champions? If not, does it need one and will one be added in an official product soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Re: Does the CU have a Superman? Originally posted by Yamo I've seen a lot of character rips in the CU (Doctor Destroyer, Batman, Joker, Iron Man, Hulk, Punisher, etc). But is there a Superman? I know Silver Age Sentinels has an iconic square-jawed flying brick in tights and a flashy cape who kicks more butt that just about everybody and stands for Truth, Justice and the whole shebang. What about Champions? If not, does it need one and will one be added in an official product soon? I think everyone needs a Superman Inspired Character. They had a few sorta kinda inspired characters in 4E. I guess it's a wait and see thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Hmm... I'm not sure that every supers universe needs an analog to Superman per se. It's more a matter of the roles that characters play in their respective worlds. Superman fills two main roles in the DC universe: that of the top powerhouse among heroes, the benchmark by which might is measured, who causes villains to go, "Whoa, I ain't fightin' him!" Superman is also the benchmark for courage, determination, and the highest ideals of heroism, and is almost universally respected by his peers and the public. Now in the Marvel Universe, those roles are divided between two figures: Thor as the standard of power, and Captain America as the standard of heroism. The problem with creating the top NPC powerhouse in a game world, is that when he's around he detracts from the PCs who are supposed to be the focus of the story. It's easier to write a way around that in a comic book than to deal with that reality in a role-playing game. OTOH an Elder Statesman of the superhero community can be a fun element to mix into a game; someone with the prestige to call the young bucks to task and remind them of what they're really fighting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden The problem with creating the top NPC powerhouse in a game world, is that when he's around he detracts from the PCs who are supposed to be the focus of the story. It's easier to write a way around that in a comic book than to deal with that reality in a role-playing game. OTOH an Elder Statesman of the superhero community can be a fun element to mix into a game; someone with the prestige to call the young bucks to task and remind them of what they're really fighting for. I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Champions is a role-playing venue. How much fun are players going to have running 350 point characters when a 1500 point Ãœbermensch is playing with them? If it's satisfying to run lower-point characters, then why don't you ever see players asking to run less-powerful characters? ("I know this is a 350-point game, but I really want to run a character with only 200 points.") It's one thing to build high-level superpowered foes for teams to fight, but nobody wants to look like an also-ran to an NPC hero. In comicspeak, the title characters are the heroes, not the hero making a guest appearance. In my campaign we have several NPC heroes that are more powerful than the player characters, but they only appear "off camera," not in scenarios. They add flavor and depth to our gameworld, but I'm not going to allow such a character to outshine the heroes in the campaign. The only way I'll ever introduce one of them directly to the players is if I concoct a scenario where said powerful NPC has already got his head handed to him and needs the PC's help. After all, the game isn't called Sidekicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 There can be a Superman but he has to be dead or gone by the time the PCs arrive. Either he lost his powers to gold kryptonite in 1986 or was killed battling the Incredible Hulk in 1993. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 I try not to fill the major "clone" categories when playing in game worlds. I like to leave those areas for the players to explore. So if a player wants to be the next Superman, or Batman, or Captain America, or Thor he can. There is no conflict. Unfortunately there are some conflicts in the CU at times (Submariner and Green Lantern come to mind) but we have been able to work around them so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 There sorta WAS a Superman/Caption America "clone" in the Champions Universe. His was one of the first costumed heros ever. Now...if only I can remember his name... (Shure, he can't fly and such...but neather did Superman in the 1930's). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Originally posted by steriaca There sorta WAS a Superman/Caption America "clone" in the Champions Universe. His was one of the first costumed heros ever. Now...if only I can remember his name... (Shure, he can't fly and such...but neather did Superman in the 1930's). His name was Captain Patriot. He was very much a Golden Age Superman/Capt. America type character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempuswolf Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Does Supergirl Count? There was a Supergirl in of all places the Viper sourcebook in 4th Ed, Viperia! I don't remember her motivations but I don't think they included Truth, Justice, nor the American Way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Viperia was obviously patterned after Supergirl in terms of her power set, but no, definitely not heroic motivations; she was VIPER's most powerfull staff supervillain and principle enforcer. 4E came kind of close to a Superman with the first Captain Australia from Hero System Almanac I, his country's greatest hero - essentially a flying brick with enhanced senses. Not on par with Supes' power level, but his style and visuals were similar. He was crippled in battle and his twin sister, with the same powers, took over his role as Cap Australia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 There's no reason in a mature campaign with mature players that there can't be a Superman Archetype character in any number of roles. Be it PC, NPC, young turk or old guard. I am getting the feeling that players in a lot of campaigns are a great deal more jealous of NPCs than my group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwolf Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 In my campaigns I reserve the clone slots for PCs, if a player wants a superman clone I help him to design a low powered version, then help him to understand how he might develop into a more powerful version over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Just a theory I think 'clone' slots often work against themselves. When RPers first start up in the super hero genre, there are cries of "I wanna play Batman." "I wanna be Wolverine" "I get Spider-Man" "Spawn rocks!" and so on... Then, the players grow a bit, and start wanting to play their 'own' creations... and that's great. However, it sometimes (not always) leads to a snobbery towards 'clones', even ones with some drastic changes. "You want to play a guy with claws and quick healing? GEE, let me guess, he's Canadian too?" This can discourage players from even getting near those concepts. I used to sneer at Superman, back in my Marvel Zombie days. As I've grown older, I grow to appreciate him. Ironically enough... one of my latest PCs (Don't get to play him much) is a superman clone. A flying brick with super vision array (No Heat vision though). He's decent, noble, very superman like in his ideals- I find I'm enjoying him very much. Everything moves in circles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOSpencer Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 You all forgot Captain Australia. He/She was a blatant Superman/girl clone. Just not quite as powerful(or silly powers wise) as Viperia. John Spencer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Actually, Lord Liaden already mentioned Captain Australia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryB Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Re: Just a theory Originally posted by Hermit This can discourage players from even getting near those concepts. I used to sneer at Superman, back in my Marvel Zombie days. As I've grown older, I grow to appreciate him. Ironically enough... one of my latest PCs (Don't get to play him much) is a superman clone. A flying brick with super vision array (No Heat vision though). He's decent, noble, very superman like in his ideals- I find I'm enjoying him very much. Everything moves in circles That's interesting. I've felt that Superman was an inherently conservative hero. (not that there's anything wrong with that) I enjoy Superman a great deal, more so now that I'm over 40 years old. It makes me wonder if maybe the basic decency of the character makes him more attractive to older males. Perhaps, as we age, we appreciate the moral straight arrow more than we did as a kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Re: Re: Just a theory Originally posted by BarryB That's interesting. I've felt that Superman was an inherently conservative hero. (not that there's anything wrong with that) I enjoy Superman a great deal, more so now that I'm over 40 years old. It makes me wonder if maybe the basic decency of the character makes him more attractive to older males. Perhaps, as we age, we appreciate the moral straight arrow more than we did as a kid. Well, I'm 40. I think it's useful to remember that a lot of the Superman stories that were coming out back in the 70's and all that were pretty lame. Sometimes neat, but lame. That doesn't apply to all the DC titles of the period, but I think if you compare Superman to the X-Men back then, you can see a considerable difference. The Superman titles have improved since then - they've not quite so "dumb". On the other hand, the various Marvel mutant titles have tended to become a little bit self-indulgent. In My Humble Opinion, of course. As for "moral straight arrows" - I could care less. On the other hand, I'm a whole lot less interested in whiny angst magnets. Superman (the present day one) is closer to being an adult than some other characters. (Bruce Wayne, on the other hand...) Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Agenda Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 I am transforming my humble attempt at guessing what an Empyrean (CU) character would be like into a Superman type. He started off as a legacy-type hero: he accidentally absorbed the persona of a 10-year veteran vigilante, knocking the original into a coma and becoming Talion II. I found he had too many layers of secrets and wasn't comfortable playing someone so violent. After a villain he had decided had to be killed escaped to murder again (he felt he could have successfully captured him, it was trying to kill the Menton wannabe that gave him the opportunity to escape) he decided to find a way to restore the original Talion and get him out of his mind. Now calling himself Valiant, the only secret he's hiding is the existence of the Empyreans. He's a medium brick with psionic powers and Life Support who has decided to try to live up to the implied Heroic Code and eventually (over centuries perhaps) master being a superhero the way other Empyreans have mastered building or music. Not the standard for power in this campaign, but a good shot at the standard for heroism if I play him right. And yeah, I'm a bit over forty. Used to be a boy scout, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Re: Re: Just a theory Originally posted by BarryB That's interesting. I've felt that Superman was an inherently conservative hero. (not that there's anything wrong with that) I enjoy Superman a great deal, more so now that I'm over 40 years old. It makes me wonder if maybe the basic decency of the character makes him more attractive to older males. Perhaps, as we age, we appreciate the moral straight arrow more than we did as a kid. Of course the irony is that Superman during the Golden Age, especially early golden age tended to lean to the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Just a theory Originally posted by Mutant for Hire Of course the irony is that Superman during the Golden Age, especially early golden age tended to lean to the left. He was a crusader against government corruption and graft. As a reporter, he felt he would be able to get information of criminals working "in" the system. In many ways, he came off as much an avenger as BatMan in the early days. And then there are the war stories where he is killing Axis soldiers left and right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Golden Age Champions has a character called Captain Atlas. He is more or less a Captain Marvel/Shazam clone except he got his powers from a dying alien and he says lollapalooza! instead of Shazam! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by starblaze Golden Age Champions has a character called Captain Atlas. He is more or less a Captain Marvel/Shazam clone except he got his powers from a dying alien and he says lollapalooza! instead of Shazam! Yep, he has figured mightily in our campaign. One of my characters has a strong connection to an aged Captain Atlas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Re: Just a theory Originally posted by Agent X He was a crusader against government corruption and graft. As a reporter, he felt he would be able to get information of criminals working "in" the system. In many ways, he came off as much an avenger as BatMan in the early days. And then there are the war stories where he is killing Axis soldiers left and right. Batman also killed guys fairly often in those days. Not usually directly, but they died via accidents. Their traps got them instead, or they were thrown through a window during the fighting. The code vs killing that we know so well was a consequence of the comics code that lasted mostly up until the early '90s. Ever since Image came on the scene (my pet peeve), it's been OK to kill 500+ bad guys a comic as long as they get in the angst and counterculture references. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just a theory Originally posted by Archon Batman also killed guys fairly often in those days. Not usually directly, but they died via accidents. Their traps got them instead, or they were thrown through a window during the fighting. The code vs killing that we know so well was a consequence of the comics code that lasted mostly up until the early '90s. Ever since Image came on the scene (my pet peeve), it's been OK to kill 500+ bad guys a comic as long as they get in the angst and counterculture references. Yeah, I lean far more toward the comics code authority than Image impulses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Does anyone else with a hankering for a Superman type in their Champions campaign plan on porting over Sentinel from SAS once the Reality Storm conversion is published? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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