Starlord Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 My Champions would be: New Millenium Quantum: Tough, militaristic black female. Also would be leader of the team. Female team leaders intrigue me. New Millenium Defender: I believe the Team: Defender concept is much more interesting that the Tony Stark rip-off. He is a college kid that would grow into his role on the team. Seeker: I've always liked Seeker. He grew especially well, to the powered up version in the original CU, to his 'World Class martial artist' version in Watchers of the Dragon. A swashbuckling martial artist is excellent. I've never understood the complaints about his 'origin'. Explain to me how it is more strange than 'radioactive spider' or 'last alien from dying planet'? Obsidian: Combines the 'fish out of water' element with the 'Noblesse Oblige'. Rather unique character I think. Witchcraft: A copy of Solitaire? Yep. However, I prefer her costume, the evil sister angle, and she doesn't have the annoying triple identity/actress crisis. *Also, I realize that the characters were made primarily as generic examples. Fine. Except they are routinely mentioned as a paramount team in the new Champions Universe. The ACTUAL canon version of the team for the current CU universe should be 450-500 point characters in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by Starlord THANK YOU! I thought I was the only one who was upset with that. He doesn't LOOK like a brick, darnit! No criticism of the artistic talent of Greg Smith intended, but my personal preference in Ironclad illos to date is Pat Zircher's from the cover of Champions Universe: solid, feet wide planted, massive arm muscles swelling as he lifts that car over his head. I also like that the ridges on his forehead are larger and more sharply angled, converging to give him an intensely scowling expression. Much more intimidating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by Starlord My Champions would be: New Millenium Quantum: Tough, militaristic black female. Also would be leader of the team. Female team leaders intrigue me. New Millenium Defender: I believe the Team: Defender concept is much more interesting that the Tony Stark rip-off. He is a college kid that would grow into his role on the team. Seeker: I've always liked Seeker. He grew especially well, to the powered up version in the original CU, to his 'World Class martial artist' version in Watchers of the Dragon. A swashbuckling martial artist is excellent. I've never understood the complaints about his 'origin'. Explain to me how it is more strange than 'radioactive spider' or 'last alien from dying planet'? Obsidian: Combines the 'fish out of water' element with the 'Noblesse Oblige'. Rather unique character I think. Witchcraft: A copy of Solitaire? Yep. However, I prefer her costume, the evil sister angle, and she doesn't have the annoying triple identity/actress crisis. *Also, I realize that the characters were made primarily as generic examples. Fine. Except they are routinely mentioned as a paramount team in the new Champions Universe. The ACTUAL canon version of the team for the current CU universe should be 450-500 point characters in my opinion. I've always liked Seeker. Sure, it's Crocadile Dundee Meets Jackie Chan, but that's pleasantly off-the-wall - as opposed to the firmly, militantly on-the-wall 5E Champions. Defender's lost that quirky urge to outthink instead of outfight the enemy. Sapphire doesn't have Quantum's abrasiveness, which was the best roleplaying hook possessed by either edition team's characters put together. But between the Widget, 4E Defender's quirks, Seeker's odd background, Jaguar's form conflicts, and Quantum's attitude, you have far more texture hands-down than you get with the bland, stereotypical 5E bunch. You don't want a prominent-in-the-game hero team to leave the PC's utterly in the dust as a matter of course. PC's are there to shine. Also, it's enough for the prominent signature team to represent a standard of heroism and to be in a position to garner media attention. That at least and at 350 points the 5E Champions manage well enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 I agree, Morningstar. One of the things that really put me off of '90's comics was the absurd overabundance of strongmen who looked like the Hulk with a shrunken head. (That, and -everyone- wore a scowl, except for the token guy with an enormous grin.) Btw ... Chinese algebra? -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storn Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 Well... the thing is, steel-bodied bricks, to me, aren't supposed to be bulky. The most I'd ever go would be like the build of a Bronze statue of Zeus or Herakles. Steel is strong, yet compact. Stone is wide and thick and powerful. Collossus, until he was drawn by the hated Jim Lee (HATE HATE HATE!) was sleek and agile, and his strength came from his actions, not the number of unneccessary cross-hatches on his arms. Cockrum, Anderson, Byrne, Smith, all drew him lean and long, and still tougher than Chinese Algebra and stronger than two-splashes of Brut. Colossus, drawn by Paul Smith, was the most lithe. However, in my opinion, Greg's Ironclad is still smaller. Hips are really narrow and the head is normal size. Even Paul Smith's C was bigger shouldered, bigger hipped than the rest of his X-men. And his head was small for his body (that is how you suggest largeness). Yes, it is a matter of degrees, but I can tell you with a ton of authority, one millimeter difference in a line can change volumes on a picture. but yes, I get your point, I like Smith's Colossus quite a bit (and his Doc Strange run even better). And Ironclad, going to that model would be fine with me. I'll keep that in mind if I ever get a chance to draw him again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storn Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 And let me state, I don't dislike Greg's drawing. I just can't get an easy handle on the character trying to live up to Greg's drawing. It has nothing to do with Greg's skill or ability. It has everything to do with my "interpertative" skills. And just the way my brain works with its visual problem solving pathways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by Cybertooth I guess I'm just an old fart at heart. I really have no problems with the new characters. However, I much prefer the older characters, especially those that go way back to the beginning. I've started playing Champions from the beginning. I've also collected everything from the beginning on. Unfortunately my 5th ed. collection has stalled due to a lack of funds, but I'm working on that. Also, I currently don't have a current campaign running right now, so I have no reason (yet) to get used to, or familiarized with the newer characters. For me, the older characters had a certain charm to them. The rules were simple and they were simple. They were in essence blank slates that we tweaked to fill our needs. We "filled in the blanks" as we developed our campaigns, and in doing so they became an integral part of those campaigns. The same goes for the villains. I mean, who didn't fight Ogre and Pulsar as their first adventure? Sure, the older rules did not cover practically every concievable power. But, a lot of us were younger then and our characters and games were simpler. Rules were made on the fly, as were combat decisions, and new powers for those that didn't exist. We had more time to devote to the game. Now, we are older adults and a lot of simply don't have that kind of time to invest. For me, it was always about the game, not about having a perfectly created mathmatically correct character or villain. Totally agreeing with you. I started with Champions 1st Edition, 1st Volume when it first came out. Making up rules on the moment was part of the fun. Let's not forget heroes with a mighty 9 ED because there wasn't any examples except in the back of the book that you could base your heroes on. There was a reason Classic Enemies was so popular. Personally, I'd like to see all (and I mean all) the older characters created 5th edition style. I'd love Hero Games to put it out as a book. I would love to see Gargoyle, Icestar, Dove, Marksman, Rose, Goliath, and the others. I always wondered what that spider/human hybrid that fired a beam from his forehead in Champions II (???) was and what his character sheet looked like. I always wanted a name and stats for the villain on the cover of the original Champions and Enemies rulebook (although, I think there was a contest to name him, I never found out officially what it was--I always referred to him as Cyclopean. Heck, he was probably Dr. Destroyer). Cybertooth, if you want to know what the freaky spider/human hybrid's stats were, I made my own up when I first got Champions II and he became a staple in my campaign for years. If interested, email me and I'll type them up for you! I'll even look up his origin (if I can find it) and give you the context of who I used him with. I think you'll find it very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willpower Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 There is really only one character in the new crew that I don't like. That is Ironclad. I think he just looks like a pansy. I mean what are those stupid little things on his head. They look to me like someone tried to rip off the Klingon look, and didn't do a good job. I preferred Obsidian, he was a cool brick. I also liked the guy from the NM team, though I can't remember his name. In fact, except for Team Defender I liked that guy best of the NM team. Of the originals there was two bricks they had Gargoyle, which I never got to know except for how he looked due to some internal problems with the company at the time, and Giant, who was pretty cool, but I preferred the others over him. I really like the new team except for Ironclad. Sure I liked Solitaire too, and wished she made it into the new team, but Witchcraft is pretty cool also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 I was so mind controlled by D&D when I got champions I tried to roll characteristics. THEN I realized the points and sold down all the characteristics I didn't want. Dex3, Int5, Spd 1....STR75 I was not intoe actually understanding the rules until about my 14th character.... My brother once made a character 100 points so he wouldn't have to have any disadvantages. The guy was almost passable too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 My Ultimate Champions: NM Quantum (leader wise) NM Team Defender (loved it) 4E Obsidian (I prefer him to worf) 4E Solitaire (witchcraft is okay) 4E Jaguar (didn't like seeker, loathe nighthawk's hood) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 There's room in my heart for both the BBB Solitare and Witchcraft. Unfortunately, it's only room in the middle of that hot-tub full of chocolate pudding. Shame on you! Got tickets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 5th Edition Defender (C:NM did not exist), upgunned 5th Edition Ironclad, upgunned Ultimate Mentalist Solitaire, with adjustments to reflect her "infiltrator" side. The "Improved" Seeker (didn't actually get that book -- Ultimate Martial Artist I think) 5th Edition Sapphire's writeup, 4th Edition Quantum's personality/background -- upgunned (in particular, make the EB and Flash slots variable) 4th Edition/CU Jaguar, adjusted to 5th Edition and upgunned slightly. And by "upgunned", I mean bring them into the 550-575 point range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by Hermit Shame on you! Got tickets? Or at least video confirmation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupus Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Australian characters The absolute best thing 5e Champs did, in my opinion, is get rid of the embarrasingly Crocodile-Dundee-Australian characters. They were terrible. I live in Australia, and I very, very rarely meet anyone who talks like that. When I do, it's usually because they're making a joke. Heck, Crocodile Dundee was a huge joke, which it seems most people didn't quite get. So, I'm glad to see Seeker gone. Well, actually, I'd perhaps have liked to have seen him updated and be a little less stupid. The old version matched old comics - it was impossible to have someone who was different without playing up that difference. Your German character has to say 'Unglaublich!' every other panel, and the Russians had to talk stupid and say 'Bozhe Moi!' The funny characters had to be really funny, and the serious characters ended up being funny because they were /so/ serious. In other words, there was no middle point. The modern characters have a much finer granularity. They can be complex. Ironclad is serious, but is also a genuine human being, for instance. Personalities aren't defined by a handful of psych lims. Yes, the old champions were simple for a simple ruleset and a simple world (to paraphrase a previous post). The new characters are more complex, and not just talking about points. I like to see that. So I really do kinda like the new characters. (Yes, the old characters were often fleshed out by players. But that's an individual thing, and can be done with ANY character, no matter how poor or two-dimensional. Doesn't mean the characters themselves were complex, just that the people fleshing them out were creative.) That said, I really enjoyed Team Defender. It was a really cool quirk, as well as a useful example of what can be done with the points. (Oh, as for updated versions of the old champions... didn't many of the Ultimate books do that? I remember a 500-point Solitaire in the Ultimate Mentalist, anyway, although I don't have my books handy to check.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Re: Australian characters Originally posted by Lupus The absolute best thing 5e Champs did, in my opinion, is get rid of the embarrasingly Crocodile-Dundee-Australian characters. They were terrible. I live in Australia, and I very, very rarely meet anyone who talks like that. When I do, it's usually because they're making a joke. Heck, Crocodile Dundee was a huge joke, which it seems most people didn't quite get. So, I'm glad to see Seeker gone. Well, actually, I'd perhaps have liked to have seen him updated and be a little less stupid. The old version matched old comics - it was impossible to have someone who was different without playing up that difference. Your German character has to say 'Unglaublich!' every other panel, and the Russians had to talk stupid and say 'Bozhe Moi!' The funny characters had to be really funny, and the serious characters ended up being funny because they were /so/ serious. In other words, there was no middle point. The modern characters have a much finer granularity. They can be complex. Ironclad is serious, but is also a genuine human being, for instance. Personalities aren't defined by a handful of psych lims. Yes, the old champions were simple for a simple ruleset and a simple world (to paraphrase a previous post). The new characters are more complex, and not just talking about points. I like to see that. So I really do kinda like the new characters. (Yes, the old characters were often fleshed out by players. But that's an individual thing, and can be done with ANY character, no matter how poor or two-dimensional. Doesn't mean the characters themselves were complex, just that the people fleshing them out were creative.) That said, I really enjoyed Team Defender. It was a really cool quirk, as well as a useful example of what can be done with the points. (Oh, as for updated versions of the old champions... didn't many of the Ultimate books do that? I remember a 500-point Solitaire in the Ultimate Mentalist, anyway, although I don't have my books handy to check.) I'm not seeing the depth in the modern characters that you are and I have been reading fiction for a while. I find these characters to have bought into recent trends just as much as older characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Agenda Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 New Millenium Quantum: Militaristic yes, but IMHO, not black. That was one of the things I didn't like about her. Why change her race? She looks like a blonde, tan, California beach body builder with a mad-on to me. Conceivably her race is ambiguous, but I prefer the 4th Ed Quantum who was drawn as what she was, no mistaking it. I also didn't care for her being replaced with a Latino in the 5th Ed. Did someone think the old Champions was too minority-heavy with BOTH a black woman and a hispanic man or did they not have the rights to those characters so had to replace instead of update? If the latter, why not make one of the other characters black? I don't expect the Champions to be the League of Affirmative Action Heroes, but in 4th Ed there was more than a token minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Let's see: I really don't see why they had to change some of these characters around, especially in the cases of Solitaire and Obsidian. Seeker: Hey, I liked "Crocodile Ninja." Quantum: I also liked "Lucy van Pelt." Obsidian/Ironclad: One of the cases where they didn't need to make a change if the new character was so close to the archetype that it wasn't worth the bother. (One of the things I didn't like about New Millenium, BTW.) Obsidian had that stoic/humorous atttitude I associate with J'onn J'onzz or T'ealc from StarGate. Ironclad is similar, but Obsidian is just more appealing visually; Ironclad seems an example of one of those Star Trek:Next Generation aliens that is basically an actor with squiggly-looking face makeup. And I can understand why Storn thinks he's hard to draw. Solitaire/Witchcraft: Again, the archetype (good sorceress with low self-esteem) is very similar to the old version. But as someone else said, Witchcraft has an evil twin, which is always good. Sapphire: I dunno, I kinda like the idea of Shakira as a superhero. Nighthawk: Probably the best substitution of the lot, as the team needed a Grim Vigilante of the Night archetype, and neither Jaguar nor "Crocodile Ninja" were suited to it. Nighthawk is certainly a better skillmonster and martial artist than Jaguar's human ID, and he doesn't seem to get beaten up AS often as Jaguar. As for the "birdie baseball hat"- I dunno, maybe people have too many bad memories of Blue Falcon...... JG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 curious Anyone else find themselves wishing we had a bit of Fiction staring the 5th Ed champs so we could get to know them better? Except for maybe the Showdown with SAS, I don't think it's going to happen... but you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Re: Re: curious Originally posted by Morningstar70 No... don't be suggesting this. I have stuff due September 1!!!! Writing the Champions fic? Oh man... Too late, already suggested. I find I can bear the difficulties of others with great fortitude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 The New Millenium Quantum was clearly black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 A good superhero team should have a healthy dose of dynamism and soap opera. I think if I were to do a new Champions team right now, it'd be: - Defender - Quantum NM (lieutenant) - Solitaire - Ironclad (whom everyone expects to act like former member Obsidian because they're both big alien bricks, and he's getting really tired of it) - Nighthawk (every team needs an edgy type, and Nighthawk provides that) - Sapphire (every group needs "The Kid", a Kitty Pryde type that the big boys can show the ropes, with a bit of tweaking, Sapphire fills the role) - Kinetik - Doc Silverback (why not?) Seeker would be the former member who keeps coming back for a few adventures, then goes back to his own book. He'd also have a bit of rivalry with Nighthawk - people know that one of these days, they're gonna drop the gloves and have at it eventually, but not yet. Obsidian would be the alien former member and current ally who occasionally guest stars in the book when they go cosmic. Jaguar would be another former member; since he was cured of his lycanthropy, he was mostly fogotten, but still maintains a low-key friendship with Quantum and is occasionally used as a contact by Nighthawk. I might also make Cavalier a former member who had an explosive relationship with Defender while he was on the team, then quit in disgust. Similarly, I might have it so that Lady Blue once briefly reformed, joined the team, then backslid back into crime, providing a certain amount of angst for Defender. Bitter former members are fun. Id also have had it that at one time, when Defender got seriously hurt, some kids replaced him and did the whole CNM "Team Defender" gimmick for awhile, and that the kid who was in the pilott's seat during that run is now on his way to becoming his own superhero. It's all in the soap opera. Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 IMHO Originally posted by Morningstar70 Part of those magical Hermit powers. Gosh, when you put it that way, with the mad face and all... I feel kinda bad.... but then it passes and I still like my idea I mean, fiction, even fan fiction (not that sort of fan fiction mind you ) would be a great way to flesh them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Nice! Originally posted by GestaltBennie It's all in the soap opera. Scott Bennie Great ideas, Scott. I plan on ripping off... uhm, utlizing a few of those suggestions I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 *LOL* OOokaay, that was funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Morningstar Rules! D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.