Elves

[Lucius]

Re: Elves

 

If you don't mind I would like to see it.

 

If I don't get it up tonight, it might not be until this weekend that I have time to.

 

LA

p

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Elves

 

If I don't get it up tonight' date=' it might not be until this weekend that I have time to.[/quote']

 

Odd... when I say that to my wife, she burns my dinner.

 

[Lucius]

Re: quested Elves

 

What Elves Know

 

Elves do not age, nor do they fear death by violence, accident, or disease. (Not that these things cannot kill them, but Elves, at least those whose wisdom is deepened by centuries of experience, do not fear death. They will rationally seek to avoid it, but it is not the paralyzing mystery of terror that it is for mortals.) All Elves have magical talent, and it is rare for an Elf to reach the age of 500 or so without learning a few spells. Elf eyes can see in either the infrared or ultraviolet spetra by an act of will. Elves do not sleep as other people do; they spend a few hours daily in a contemplative state they call the Reverie. All Elves are vulnerable to iron to some extent, and some cannot bear to touch it. Also, iron disrupts the delicate energies of Sidhe magick. Their native language is Sidhe, said to be the ancestor of all languages; knowing Sidhe gives one an advantage in learning any other language. Despite their intelligence and long lives, an Elf may often have less skill or useful knowledge than a mortal one tenth as old; when you have literally forever, it is easy to put off practicing a skill, learning a new technique, or doing any research. Also, Elves may have the problem of knowledge being out of date - if three forests have grown and withered since you were last in these lands, even if you recollect your last trip perfectly, it may not help much.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that yes, there's also a "What Everyone Knows about Humans" and a "What Humans Know."

[DEFCON Clown]

Re: Elves

 

Thanks for posting that, Lucius. I always like to see how different handle the same or similar races in their own games. I'm going to post a thread about that.

 

Could someone rep Lucius for me?

[Old Man]

Re: Elves

 

Correct me if I'm wrong' date=' Old Man, but aren't you the one with the story about the player that has as its climactic line "I shapechange into an Elf!" If you told that one, I'm sure some people would understand better where all the antielven sentiment comes from. [/quote']

 

No, that's not me. Or if it was, then I've forgotten. I have forgotten so many things, you see.

 

My dislike of elves has partly to do with their complete lack of personality. The typical example is Legolas--superhuman in every way, yet completely lacking in flaws or motivations or character traits other than his 'contest' with Gimli. Yet he's the only member of his race who can be bothered to get off his ass and help out, which means that for an elf, he is unusually motivated and sympathetic.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Elves

 

Yet he's the only member of his race who can be bothered to get off his ass and help out' date=' which means that for an elf, he is unusually motivated and sympathetic.[/quote']

 

In all fairness, the other elves were all packing for that long boat trip out of Middle Earth.

[Haerandir]

Re: Elves

 

In all fairness' date=' the other elves were all packing for that long boat trip out of Middle Earth.[/quote']

 

That doesn't really constitute much of a recommendation.

 

Note, I have nothing against Elves, but as a defense against accusations of apathy and aloofness, cowardice leaves something to be desired...

[Curufea]

Re: Elves

 

A D&Dism. Things from outside the normal' date=' material world, like angels, devils, and elementals.[/quote']

 

Ah. I don't over other dimensions. Angels, Demons and Gods are manifestations of magic.

[Black Rose]

Re: Elves

 

No, that's not me. Or if it was, then I've forgotten. I have forgotten so many things, you see.

 

My dislike of elves has partly to do with their complete lack of personality. The typical example is Legolas--superhuman in every way, yet completely lacking in flaws or motivations or character traits other than his 'contest' with Gimli. Yet he's the only member of his race who can be bothered to get off his ass and help out, which means that for an elf, he is unusually motivated and sympathetic.

And the thing is, I can buy that as a character. It's entirely possible that Legolas is actually freakishly outgoing and bubbly... for an elf. Maybe they all groove on the mellow, and (much like the Drow in DnD) have a language based on non-verbal cues so much that the actual verbal stuff comes across as rather emotionless and bland.

 

And really, if you and virtually everyone you've ever known is leaving the country due to (let's call it) a plague epidemic, why in God's name would you want to stick around and try to stop some (pretty much) local warlord? You're leaving, remember? And besides, in five hundred years everyone here will be dead, so what's the point?

[Old Man]

Re: Elves

 

I know part of the problem is that I'm ascribing hyoomun values to what is essentially an alien race. But still, the aloof and uncaring elf is really not an interesting character to read about or play. Tolkien himself has written several elf characters who were more interesting, like Luthien (tragic romantic) or Thranduil (dick). Yet in RPGs these are not typical.

[Markdoc]

Re: Elves

 

Correct me if I'm wrong' date=' Old Man, but aren't you the one with the story about the player that has as its climactic line "I shapechange into an Elf!" If you told that one, I'm sure some people would understand better where all the antielven sentiment comes from.[/quote']

 

Nah, that was von D-man. I got a good response from my players when I shared that story.

 

As to elf-hatred, I used to have player who would only play elves. I think he thought they were cool. They were also always uber-fighter-mage types optimised for combat and nothing else. More, they were all essentially identical. We took to calling them all "Clonan". I'm glad the Dr'zzt stories hadn't been written at that point or we would have been drowning in a sea of identical drow. And there were a lot of these guys, since the player could never resist doing things to get his character killed, both in my campaign and other people's.

 

But thinking about it, I may have been slighting his roleplaying ability all these years: his characters were always self-important, temperamental, vain, erratic, childish and slightly malicious, impossible to predict and with the attention span of a drunken butterfly - just like the elves in Vance's Lyonesse stories. If he used them as a model, his roleplaying was excellent!

 

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Re: Elves

 

Okay, I tracked down the story. It WAS Von D-Man.

 

A cautionary tale about a probationary player coming into a long established group with a long established campaign with a long established invitation only policy. The game was my Freedom Patrol game, which is not set in the Heroverse. The game is an espionage game set in the 1950's with atomic horror, occult madness, alien conspiracy, and red scare elements. The characters are upper-end heroic characters with some top shelf powers, but this isn't a world where people run around in costumes (unless you're a kook; though we've had a few comic book parody adventures, and tabloid and MIB references were not uncommon). Its high-powered pulp with a dark and gritty espionage twist, and the characters work in black ops for the government.

 

Me: Okay, you know all about the campaign?

PB: Yeah, I read your hand-out. It was long.

Me: (thinks 1.5 pages with several bullet points can be suffered through) So, do you have a character idea?

PB: I want to play an Elvish Precog.

Me: (um...) No. I don't mean to be harsh, but this game is set on Earth in a genre that doesn't support... (I almost groan as I say it)... elves.

IP: (the inviting player has gone utterly still and is staring at his guest in like there is an alien at the table; the others are on the verge of a giggle-fit).

PB: (petulent) The Hero Universe has Elves in its distant past - I was magically re-born!

OP: (my players, who know me, including inviting player, come back from the edge and look at him like he's insane)

Me: (once again I want to beat Steve with a nerf-bat for foisting that rickety meta-setting idea on us; and the player for not reading the

incredibly long hand

out) This isn't in the Heroverse. Its in its own world. Let's call it the Freeverse.

IP: (mutters) its not very free.

Me: (clever boy! last chance, try a cheery face) Do you have something more appropriate to the game guidelines?

IP: (he's quiet for a minute, then looks smug) I'll play a shape-shifter with precog powers.

Me: (very suspicious, but I want to get on with it)... alright.

 

 

 

An hour later, after everyone is settled and we've handled left-over business and gotten our munchies the game begins. I was blase over the mechanical write-up, but the player who invited him helped him come up with a passable character outline and hook for getting him into the game. Within a few minutes of beginning...

 

 

IP: I shape change into an elf.

 

Someone asked what happenned next, and he obliged:

 

Actually' date=' the other characters subdued him with extreme prejudice and then began interrogating him with the light in his face and the pulp police growl and the whole shebang. They did it for an hour, and as two of them were pretty good improv comics who were very big on Bored of the Rings and had an elf routine they had polished, it was absolutely hilarious. At one point he complained: "I'm a precog, I would have seen this coming," to which I responded, "yeah, me too." When they finished I called the session and suggested we all go get dinner and a movie. The player who invited him uninvited him without a word for me the following morning. It went down in history as a non-canonical "what if session," I still remember it fondly.[/quote']

 

As I said, if you've had to deal with a few players like that, I can understand taking a dislike to Elves.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary likes to see both sides of an argument.

[Susano]

Re: Elves

 

If I ever do a fantasy game, I'm gonna have elves. But I think I'm going to steal from Record of Lodoss War, World of Warcraft, and Lineage II for my elves. Maybe taller than humans, maybe a little more slender, really long ears, large eyes, silky hair in a variety of colors, skin tones across the board (up to and including bluish shades), long-lived, magical talents. I was also considering breaking them down by "environment," so you might have sea elves, wood elves, dark/dusk/night elves, and so on. Each would have their won culture, look, and so on, although there would be a lot of cross overs.

 

My other idea was that elves are actually physical manifestation of the elements/nature, thus making them a mix of fey, elementals, and dryads/neriads/Kino-O-Bake/mermaids, and so on. They don't breed among themselves, but mate with humans, with the children being a mixture of pure human, pure elf, or half & half. This, of course, would explain changelings, as pure human children born to the elves would be swapped for elven children born to humans. One side effect of this would be to allow PCs to buy various semi-magical abilities (see in the dark, breathe water, long life) and so on, due to being the descendent of just such a union (and the more recent the union, the more power the character has).

[Cancer]

Re: Elves

 

I admit that, on the basis of a Shadowrun campaign (where the backstory includes lots of powerful, manipulative, general S.O.B. Elves who routinely and repeatedly screw PCs), one morning on my bus commute, when the bus was passed by a red 'Vette convertible with the vanity plate "EVILELF", my reaction was to regret not having an automatic weapon at hand.

 

Also, if I'd known the car's owner was named Johnson, I might have popped open the bus's escape window and attacked hand-to-hand anyway.

[Old Man]

Re: Elves

 

As to elf-hatred' date=' I used to have player who would only play elves. I think he thought they were cool. They were also always uber-fighter-mage types optimised for combat and nothing else. [/quote']

 

Precisely. I don't know what it is about elves that attracts players like these. Certainly not all elf players are like this.* But so many are.

 

 

 

*For example, Shadowpup plays exclusively elves not because he's a munchkin, but because he's psychologically disturbed.

[tkdguy]

Re: Elves

 

My elves were almost always fighter/mages in 2nd Edition AD&D. But the house rule was only magical armor and elven chain were allowed when casting spells, so I was often called "Mr. 2 hit points." Also, with one such character, I often fought better with a bar stool than with a sword. I don't know why; I just rolled better on those occasions.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Elves

 

I admit that' date=' on the basis of a [i']Shadowrun[/i] campaign (where the backstory includes lots of powerful, manipulative, general S.O.B. Elves who routinely and repeatedly screw PCs), one morning on my bus commute, when the bus was passed by a red 'Vette convertible with the vanity plate "EVILELF", my reaction was to regret not having an automatic weapon at hand.

 

Also, if I'd known the car's owner was named Johnson, I might have popped open the bus's escape window and attacked hand-to-hand anyway.

 

Oh, please provide context for this.

[Kristopher]

Re: Elves

 

So to sum this up, it's not elves that people are reacting to, it's the kinds of people they think like to play elves.

[Curufea]

Re: Elves

 

Seems like.

On the other hand in D&D I nearly always choose a human thief or equivalent, which kind of defines what kind of player I am. A skill junky

[Cancer]

Re: Elves

 

Oh' date=' please provide context for this.[/quote']

 

Not sure what more I can add. In the Shadowrun canon, Elves tend to view themselves as the obviously superior race, and politically and magically powerful Elves are the kind of folks who need a comeuppance in the worst way.

 

Also in the same materials, usually the PC group are performing at-best-questionably-legal tasks for money. Invariably their employer is referred to as "Mr. Johnson", whether that employer is male or female, human or otherwise. And in their published canned adventures, with a regularity that gets tedious very quickly, Mr. Johnson always tries to cheat the PCs, or set them up to be the fall guy, or is knowingly sending them into a death trap, or some other reason why Mr. Johnson is never your favorite guy. In fact, at the end of many adventures, in retrospect the best thing you could have done would have been to blast him into a bloody pulp three seconds after you set eyes on him.

 

So the confluence of excessive car, "EVILELF" vanity plate, and Mr. Johnson triggers my Shadowrun reflexes....

[Lemurion]

Re: Elves

 

I have played elves, and had fun with them-- but yes, too many of the people who play them play in annoying fashion. It's often worth playing a system or setting that doesn't have elves just to avoid the "special elven skills" or other such nonsense these players come up with.

 

For some reason the players of dwarves are rarely as annoying.

[assault]

Re: Elves

 

Oh' date=' please provide context for this.[/quote']

 

I believe "Mr Johnson" is the generic name in Shadowrun for the "fixers" who hire/arrange jobs for the PCs. And, inevitably, mess them over, intentionally or otherwise.

 

--

 

I used to play Elves occasionally, back in my DnD days. They were OK, but not all that tough. That was long ago, of course, and the rules have changed a lot, but certainly there wasn't a whole lot of munchkin value in them back then.

 

Drow, of course, were something else - but then, they weren't originally available as PCs! Come to think of it, my old Players Handbook says: "There are many sorts of elves, ... Elven player characters are always considered to be high elves, the most common sort of elf."

 

So Elves weren't originally a particularly munchkin option. Sure, they could multi-class, but like most such characters they were restricted in the levels they could achieve, and they would typically lag a level or two behind single classed characters even before they hit these limits. Their hit points would lag behind as well.

 

I didn't have a problem with them back then. The real munchkin action was elsewhere.

 

--

 

For what it is worth, I can only recall one case of ever killing another PC. This was a Dwarf, played by a kid, who was doing stuff that was putting the rest of the party's characters at risk. We asked him to stop. We begged him to stop. We told him to stop. We insisted he stop. We threatened him. We killed him. Or rather, my character killed him, since he didn't want anyone else having to do a dirty job he wasn't willing to do himself.

 

It was him (the Dwarf) or us, so it was him.

 

From memory, Dwarves seemed to be another kind of character generally played more by munchkins rather than roleplayers. But again, there wasn't really much point to it...

[Old Man]

Re: Elves

 

From memory, Dwarves seemed to be another kind of character generally played more by munchkins rather than roleplayers. But again, there wasn't really much point to it...

 

IMX dwarves aren't played by munchkins so much as by beer-and-pretzels gamers for whom 'roleplaying' a drunken, grumpy, obnoxious, manly warrior is not much of a stretch. Because all dwarves are like that, in much the same way that all elves are aloof and effeminate.

[Lemurion]

Re: Elves

 

IMX dwarves aren't played by munchkins so much as by beer-and-pretzels gamers for whom 'roleplaying' a drunken' date=' grumpy, obnoxious, manly warrior is not much of a stretch. Because all dwarves are like that, in much the same way that all elves are aloof and effeminate.[/quote']

 

Dwarves can be a lot of fun, especially if you twist some of the ideas behind them. Some of the most fun I've ever had has been playing a Dwarven labor activist. There's just something about being an organizer for the Dwarven Minder's Guild (or Union) while wandering around with a hammer in one hand and a sickle in the other that brings a grin to my face.

[Lucius]

Re: Elves

 

I have played elves, and had fun with them-- but yes, too many of the people who play them play in annoying fashion. It's often worth playing a system or setting that doesn't have elves just to avoid the "special elven skills" or other such nonsense these players come up with.

 

For some reason the players of dwarves are rarely as annoying.

 

Then isn't it great playing a point based system where if he wants "special Elven skills" he has to pay for them, put them on the character sheet, and have them defined and set out (at least for the person running the game) beforehand?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Special palindromedary skills