What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

[wylodmayer]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Ninja Hero, for the campaign ideas and source material. It was a really well done book.

 

Classic Enemies, although I tend to ditch about 90% of the "canon" background for each character and reinvent in my own particular idiom (grin).

 

CLOWN was interesting for a while, but I can't go to that well too often. Similarly, after some rewriting of the concept, I got a lot of use out of Neutral Ground, but just for one campaign - it's too high concept to plausibly recur in every superhero setting.

 

4th ed Dark Champions was my go-to book until the 5th edition version came out, and I still find reasons to haul out Justice, Not Law and An Eye for an Eye.

 

Oh, and because I'm a dork, I still prize my copy of Autoduel Champions.

[wylodmayer]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Nighthawk is not a great improvement over Seeker though' date=' so both go...[/quote']

 

I actually got a lot of mileage out of Nighthawk in a campaign because of the fact that he's a dippy character. See, a lot of writers tend to portray Batman as an insufferable a** toward other heroes, but he can get away with it because he's hyper competent. Well, Nighthawk is only a base character, but I played him the same way. The concept hook was, what if Batman was *irrationally* confident in his own abilities and contemptuous of others'? Granted, Nighthawk was a god compared to the thugs and lowlifes he normally dealt with, but he was way out of his league when dealing with a lot of the villains and even other heroes. Yet he still swaggered around and talked like he was God's Gift to heroing. Basically, I gave him an Overconfident disad.

 

It worked out really well. The first time they met him, the PCs didn't like his attitude, but they gritted their teeth and took it because they assumed they'd need his help later. Well, later came, and he nearly got himself and one of them killed by taking his dinky little Batman-rip-off gadgets into a fight with a seriously powerful supervillain. They pretty much told him off after that, and it created a lot of friction between their group and the Champions for a while. There were several other instances of Nighthawk acting like he was the only person who had any business being a superhero in "his" city, and a few times where the PCs crossed paths with him during an investigation (he always insisted they were interfering in "his" case).

 

Finally, it all came to a head when Nighthawk and the PCs wound up coming at the same bad guy from two totally different cases, both of which he was involved in. Nighthawk (who was dubbed "Nightduck" by one character) refused to cooperate or compromise with the PCs in any way on who would apprehend him, when, and for what, and it was a big thing. Nighthawk charged in, one of the PCs tried to stop him, Nighthawk retailated, and another PC beat the ever loving h*ll out of him. This earned them Nighthawk's eternal enmity and a stern talking to from Defender, but they got a great deal of satisfaction out of the experience. And Nighthawk started steering clear of their cases.

[Marketeer]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Totally fair; although my own take on it is that some of the later incarnations of Seeker, like the one from Watchers of the Dragon, are actually just fine--they play up the "Seeker" aspect, and play down the "I'm an Australian Ninja!" aspect.

 

Nighthawk just doesn't feel quite so archetypical for some reason; part of it is the Batman comparison, I suppose.

[GamePhil]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Also, I have 4th Ed. core rules in .pdf form, which I copy and give to my players for reference when we play.

 

That sounds a lot like one of your reasons for not using the new book is that you are pirating the old one, which I'm sure isn't what's going on...

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

I mostly run a fantasy campaign, so much of my old 4th and pre-4th ed Champions stuff has been unused for quite a while, but if I ever get back in the Supers mood I'm sure many of those titles, like Road Kill, Mind Games, and Wrath of the Seven Horsemen, would be put to good use.

 

I still use my old Fantasy Hero Companions for ideas as well as the Hero System Almanac. The spirit rules in the Almanac make for some interesting adversaries.

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

That sounds a lot like one of your reasons for not using the new book is that you are pirating the old one' date=' which I'm sure isn't what's going on...[/quote']

 

Point blank: You can't pirate something which has been superceded, put out of print, is no longer available from the publisher in any form and was paid for in full from the website before 5th Ed. came out. If I'm wrong, then somebody can sue me over it. I just use it for my players to have a copy of the rules (and they generally don't read it anyway).

 

As for the rest of my rants for "4th Ed. over 5th Ed." not holding water -- well, maybe they don't. Maybe I just like 4th Ed, or maybe I put the effort into learning the nuances of the old system and now don't want to learn the new one. Maybe I'm getting old -- after all, I still pine for my old Word 6.0 3.5" floppy discs, even though most computers don't deal with that medium anymore. Point is, I've tried FRED -- I've tried making characters that kinda work but it takes more work to get them right with the new system than it does with the old one. Whether that's because I've used 4th Ed. for years and am not giving FRED its due, or whether it's because FRED is broken somehow, the point is it doesn't work for me.

 

I'm not saying that people shouldn't use the new rules -- if they work for you, by all means, use them. Fortunately, nearly all of the 5th Ed. supplements are (with a tweak or two) backwards compatable. That's why I'm still buying them. And that's the real genius of the current staff -- they haven't left those of us who aren't going to make the leap behind. We can still use what they are presenting, provided we are willing to adapt what's there to what we play.

 

So ultimately, I suppose, I'll keep on playing 4th Ed and y'all do what feels good for you, and I'll quit complaining. Fair enough?

 

Matt "Sorry-I-posted-on-this-thread-already" Frisbee

[Lemurion]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

It all comes back to the fact that Hero System is the gamer's toolkit. Some people prefer the latest gadget, others prefer that screwdriver they've had for years that fits perfectly into their hand. Whichever works for you, that's what you use.

 

I'm in the process of writing up an adventure for a short game I want to run and so far I've used a mix of both 4E and 5E for source material. The idea is a 1938 Golden Age Champions adventure and so far I'm thinking of using both Doberman and Anubis.

 

They're very much interoperable; and I'm going to continue to mix and match.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

I still reference The Ultimate Mentalist and the Ultimate Super-Mage occasionally (though I've recently been reading the new Ultimate Mystic). Normals Unbound, Hero System Almanac (not for the spirit rules, but for alternate AE types) and Coprerations are other 4e books I use. Most often I reference the 4e PRIMUS book by Shelley Chrystal Mactyre, mainly because there is no 5e counterpart yet.

 

I also use a number of various 3e suppliments, usually the crappy adventures, for plot and villain inspiration (or occasionally as a last ditch effort for a last minute adventure, typically played for comedy; To Serve & Protect and Scourge of the Deep were particularly funny).

[zornwil]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Point blank: You can't pirate something which has been superceded, put out of print, is no longer available from the publisher in any form and was paid for in full from the website before 5th Ed. came out. If I'm wrong, then somebody can sue me over it. I just use it for my players to have a copy of the rules (and they generally don't read it anyway).

 

As for the rest of my rants for "4th Ed. over 5th Ed." not holding water -- well, maybe they don't. Maybe I just like 4th Ed, or maybe I put the effort into learning the nuances of the old system and now don't want to learn the new one. Maybe I'm getting old -- after all, I still pine for my old Word 6.0 3.5" floppy discs, even though most computers don't deal with that medium anymore. Point is, I've tried FRED -- I've tried making characters that kinda work but it takes more work to get them right with the new system than it does with the old one. Whether that's because I've used 4th Ed. for years and am not giving FRED its due, or whether it's because FRED is broken somehow, the point is it doesn't work for me.

 

I'm not saying that people shouldn't use the new rules -- if they work for you, by all means, use them. Fortunately, nearly all of the 5th Ed. supplements are (with a tweak or two) backwards compatable. That's why I'm still buying them. And that's the real genius of the current staff -- they haven't left those of us who aren't going to make the leap behind. We can still use what they are presenting, provided we are willing to adapt what's there to what we play.

 

So ultimately, I suppose, I'll keep on playing 4th Ed and y'all do what feels good for you, and I'll quit complaining. Fair enough?

 

Matt "Sorry-I-posted-on-this-thread-already" Frisbee

I think people were just trying to be helpful; it's not to convince you but it seems odd that you find characters so different since there were relatively few significant changes that way, so, while checkmate may have phrased it differently, I thnk the point was more around trying to figure out what is really a problem and if there is a solution. So no need to be sorry you posted.

 

Regardless of your statement, it is not legal to make copies of even out-of-print material, it's still a copyright violation until the copyright expires or the copyright holder waives their rights. I'm not DOJ and I'm not about to try to tell you what to do on this account, but just being clear on the matter.

[Lemurion]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

What I do for my players (who tend not to buy books the way I do) is simple. I bought the download of Sidekick, printed it out, and throw it on the table as their reference.

 

That way the players have the slim book, the GM the big one.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

What I do for my players (who tend not to buy books the way I do) is simple. I bought the download of Sidekick, printed it out, and throw it on the table as their reference.

 

That way the players have the slim book, the GM the big one.

Yeah, I have a print version of Sidekick that I use as a "Players' Handbook."

[GamePhil]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Point blank: You can't pirate something which has been superceded, put out of print, is no longer available from the publisher in any form and was paid for in full from the website before 5th Ed. came out. If I'm wrong, then somebody can sue me over it. I just use it for my players to have a copy of the rules (and they generally don't read it anyway).

 

Ah, I see, well you'll forgive me for trying to warn a fellow board member that they are admitting to theft on the boards of the company they are stealing from. I'll be sure not to extend the same courtesy in the future.

[Checkmate]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

I think people were just trying to be helpful; it's not to convince you but it seems odd that you find characters so different since there were relatively few significant changes that way' date=' so, while checkmate may have phrased it differently, I thnk the point was more around trying to figure out what is really a problem and if there is a solution. So no need to be sorry you posted. [/quote']

Zornwil is correct. I realize my post came out TONS more harshly than I really intended, for that I apologize. I was trying to get to the bottom of your troubles and maybe see if I could help. If it's just "I like it better", well there you go .

 

I'm also a HUGE fan of Hero Designer, and have actually gotten pretty good at making it do what I want to. I know next to nothing about HTML (or I guess is XTML? but what do I know) but I've learned to go through the code and find what I want to change, and change it. I've been doing that for a bit, and thought I might be able to give you some pointers. I'd also like to let you know that at http://www.herodesigner.com there are some great export templates that have character sheets that look like the 4th Ed. ones.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Point blank: You can't pirate something which has been superceded' date=' put out of print, is no longer available from the publisher in any form and was paid for in full from the website before 5th Ed. came out. [/quote']Per Copyright Law

Out of print is irrelevant. It does not pass into public domain until 75 years after publication.

No longer available from the publisher in any form is irrelevant. It is still available at a "fair price" at common trade sources (used book stores for example).

You paid in full for a single copy. You may only make copies for "Fair Use"

==============

 

Even if you claim fair use for teaching or evaluation purposes, the most that you are allowed to copy is 10%, or in this case...

 

22 pages.

 

Anything more than that, and DOJ could "go all Marvel" on you. And the code monkey sees all, knows all.

[cypar7]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

I have been using San Angelo, and its supplements. I like Mel City, but San Angelo has a different feel to the city. When I'm not running game I usually have a character that has emigrated from San Angelo to the campaign city.

 

I also use Western Hero, but not nearly as often as I would like. Oh, and not Western Hero with zombies and magic. No Deadlands Hero, thank you.

[Sketchpad]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

As per the Seeker/Nighthawk discussion ...

The thing with me is that every character usually gets some design tweaks when passing my desk for the game. In the campaign I run, The Champions have had both Seeker and Nighthawk in the group ... Seeker eventually found his way working for UNTIL, while Nighthawk has become the Batman-backup for The Champions ... both characters have been redrawn and their backgrounds altered But the same can be said about everyone, save Foxbat

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

I use everything that I have, outdated or not. My favorites are Ninja Hero, The Ultimate Mentalist, and the Ultimate Supermage. I have also gotten a lot of mileage out of Strikeforce, the Hero Bestiary, Cyberhero, and all the Fantasy Hero stuff.

 

Although some of the stuff might not translate directly point-wise, you can still use most of it as written. I change names and backgrounds, maybe alter a power or two, and reuse characters all the time. This is especially useful since my games tend to have a fairly high lethality, so I need new NPCs a lot. Even supplements that I did not really care for (the Zodiac Conspiracy comes to mind) have been useful for either inspiration or pieces&parts.

 

Bottom line is that I don't regret a single Hero-product purchase (even when I got two copies of 4th Ed. Champions as gifts; just meant my players had a reference they could share without swiping mine).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Do you have to ask?

 

ROBOT WARRIORS, baby.

[Ternaugh]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

I still use 4th ed Hero System rules, though not as much as before. And I've got the PDF, the core rules book, and two copies of the Champions hardcover (well, to be honest, I've got a couple of ringbinders of the Champions hardcover--mine started splitting at the Limitations section). Since I primarily game FH, I also use the FH2 and FHC extensively (and those are also in PDF and in print).

 

The last iteration of my campaign world had characters that were primarily designed in 4th, with some 5th stuff slowly working its way in. When I run it again later this year (hopefully!), there will still be a heavy 4th bias, but new stuff from FH3 (and Grimoires) will be present as well.

 

JoeG

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Per Copyright Law

Out of print is irrelevant. It does not pass into public domain until 75 years after publication.

No longer available from the publisher in any form is irrelevant. It is still available at a "fair price" at common trade sources (used book stores for example).

You paid in full for a single copy. You may only make copies for "Fair Use"

==============

 

Even if you claim fair use for teaching or evaluation purposes, the most that you are allowed to copy is 10%, or in this case...

 

22 pages.

 

Anything more than that, and DOJ could "go all Marvel" on you. And the code monkey sees all, knows all.

 

Well, then call me a pirate. Argh. But just so the briefcase jockeys don't come knocking, I officially declare in this public forum that I will cease and desist the practice forthwith and immeadiately destroy all copies but the original I bought. Hopefully, that will make everyone happy.

 

Also, apologies all the way around -- I occasionally get grumpy on the night shift and shouldn't have been as strident in my response to what I assumed was an accusation. I only do what works and try to stay legal, but since I've had it pointed out that I'm in the wrong, I admit I am wrong and what you were doing was only trying to help me out. So, once again in my sorrid life -- mea culpa.

 

On the upside, this whole exercise seems to have purged some negative emotion buildup on my psyche, so maybe it isn't all bad.

 

Matt "The-fault-is-not-in-the-stars-Brutus-but-in-ourselves" Frisbee

[Tech]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

What pre-5th books do I still use? Hoo-boy, that's a big list.

Champions 2 book

Champions 4th edition

Viper 4th edition

Enemies I & II

Stronghold (1st edition)

Atlantis book (forgot name)

Enemies: Villainy Unbound

Ultimate Martial Arts

Enemies: International Files

Hi-Tech Enemies

Enemies Classic

 

There's more but I'd have to dig them out for their names.

[Mike W]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Most of my villain books. I tended to rebuild a lot of the published characters to be more well rounded and efficient anyway, so 5th edition didn't make that much difference to me since they generally kept things close to the previous edition. Most of the characters I had built already didn't have to be changed significantly(except, of course, for my favorite PC character).

[Rapier]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

Most of my villain books. I tended to rebuild a lot of the published characters to be more well rounded and efficient anyway' date=' so 5th edition didn't make that much difference to me since they generally kept things close to the previous edition. Most of the characters I had built already didn't have to be changed significantly(except, of course, for my favorite PC character).[/quote']

 

I usually start by putting the character from the book into HD. As it goes into HD it gets a bit of a tweak. Then I parse, purge and proofread. Sometimes, I need to boost the power level or maybe scale it back. Maybe there is a power I think the character should have and was missed. Shrug.

[Kenn]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

In the Seeker vs Nighthawk debate, I see one thing missing: Crusader!!!

 

I gave up on most of the Champions Universe characters in the first few years of my GMing. So the whole 4th Ed. vs 5th Ed. Champions Universe debate is null and void to me.

 

"Aaron Allston's Strike Force" is still a book I use, albeit indirectly. I learned more about maintaining a long-running game from that book than any other.

 

My original "Champions" mentor has come back to the group after being away for over sixteen years. Thing is, he'd been away from "Champions"/Hero games that whole time. So he completely missed the BBB. He's going from the light blue paperback 3rd Ed. Champions to FrED! That was a system shock.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use?

 

An alternate history for my Champions Universe has the 4e Champions existing in the late 80s/early 90s but disbanded by 96, then a new group, led by someone also called Defender (slightly different suit but with similar abilities, so everyone thinks its the same Defender), but with an entirely new roster of other member. The Defender is actually not the same as the earlier one, but Mr. Harmon (I think it's Harmon... the new rich guy who's Defender in 5th anyway) knew the guy in normal ID and took the name in his honor.