CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

[Hermit]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Another Thought:

IIRC, Millennium City mentions a superhero by name of Hydro. Yet there's no write up of him anywhere that I know of. As some have voiced interest in him before, perhaps one could be provided.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

If...

the existing layout can't be changed

and

new material can't expand/cover a subject already in the existing layout then I don't see how the word Revised qualifies to be added to the title.

 

Champions is probably the oldest and smallest genre book (other than maybe Ninja Hero). At the same time, it also has the strongest name recognition of ANY title produced by HERO. When we try to recrute new players we start with HERO but always end up referring to older versions of CHAMPIONS.

 

What you're describing sounds more like an update (like the one done for USPD) than a revision (like that of HERO 5E to 5ER). I personally might buy the update just to have another copy on hand but I (and many others on this board) would definitely buy a true revision if it were near the quality of any of the newer genre books.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I don't know whether I should post any more comments to this thread, because I know that I won't buy the new Champions. To this point I've avoided purchasing any "revised" versions of Hero books I already own - I'd rather save my limited gaming funds for new items - and within the parameters that Steve has outlined there's nothing that would tempt me to change for this book.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

IIRC, Millennium City mentions a superhero by name of Hydro. Yet there's no write up of him anywhere that I know of.

 

Only because you haven't seen CU:NotW yet.

[Hermit]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Only because you haven't seen CU:NotW yet.

 

[gojira]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Adding in a big discussion of the Power Skill or ECs means redoing the layout from pages 63-64 on' date=' so I can't do that either. [/quote']

 

Could some discussion be placed in the margins, as a sidebar? That's what I was thinking of for Power Skill. Even a quick, basic "this is how it works by default" would be helpful.

 

For tacking stuff on at the end, a mini-adventure, with some flexible heroes-villains, seems like it would be the neatest. Maybe include also a very short solo adventure/example of play featuring Nighthawk. For the noobs.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Adding some sidebars is a more realistic possibility. I'm not sure how far I want to go down that road, but it's a road worth considering.

[McCoy]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I often hear older Champs fans remarking that they found the alternate villain/hero backgrounds for the characters in the 3E Champs book to be quite useful' date=' especially to beginners, for increasing the number of available villains and NPC or even PC heroes. Perhaps you could add an Appendix with alternate backgrounds and motivations for the characters included in the book.[/quote']

This was my thought, but instead of alternate backgrounds and motivations for the characters included in the book, six to 12 new characters that have stayed "under the radar" in the Champions Universe, thus have no histories as heroes or villians.

 

GM's could use them as individual villians, assemble them into a team or three, or pass them out to a player who wants to try out the game before creating his own character.

 

Alternately, reprint the write-ups of the MC 8 from Digital Heroes, maybe with additional artwork.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

OK' date=' now you're getting right back to the very heart of my original post: given the constraints I specified on what we can do in terms of adding things to the book, what [i']could[/i] be added to the book that would make it an attractive purchase for you? The whole point here is to give you an opportunity to perhaps tailor the product to suit you.

 

What would NOT tempt me is reprint info. Whether from another book, from Digital Hero, or from whatever existing published source, I've either bought/will buy the book in question, or I'm not interested in it. To persuade me to purchase the new version, it would require new information.

 

I agree with one poster's comment that the "Revised" label doesn't really seem to fit the same book with an addon that cannot expand any of the existiong material. That said, I also can't think of a more appropriate appellation for the new version.

 

Of the ideas mentioned so far, the one that appeals most is the scenario/story arc. With a few dozen pages to work with, there's room for a decent size scenario with, perhaps , a few new characters if needed for the scenario.

[Balabanto]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I'd like to see Cryotron and the Corruptors of All, as Dennis Mallonee has never even BOTHERED to use them. Rights be damned. If he hasn't used them in 20 years, he's voided his right to.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I agree with one poster's comment that the "Revised" label doesn't really seem to fit the same book with an addon that cannot expand any of the existiong material. That said, I also can't think of a more appropriate appellation for the new version.

 

Even if all we do is update it with 5ER page references and rules tweaks, I have no problem calling it "Revised" -- just as we did with USPD-R.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Even if all we do is update it with 5ER page references and rules tweaks' date=' I have no problem calling it "Revised" -- just as we did with USPD-R.[/quote']

 

As I said, I can't think of a better description, and the fact it now matched 5E Revised makes it less confusing to apply the "Revised" description here as well.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I'd like to see Cryotron and the Corruptors of All' date=' as Dennis Mallonee has never even BOTHERED to use them. Rights be damned. If he hasn't used them in 20 years, he's voided his right to.[/quote']Incorrect. Ownership is ownership is ownership, and he owns them until he sells them or has been dead for 75 years. And DOJ is quite clear in not wanting to step on someone else's intellectual rights, just as they wouldn't want someone else stepping on theirs.

 

(Not that I personally wouldn't love to see such a blast from the past, mind you....)

[SuperPheemy]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Sorry to toss a tangent in here.

 

I have a better idea of the limitations of the revision now, but don't have anything better than what's already been suggested. However, considering a couple of the ideas and observations made here, it would seem that a full-on overhaul and big-ol revision might be worth considering. Not now, of course, but perhaps for '09 or '10.

 

I think that in the years since HERO 5 was released, there have been a ton of refinements, both in the realm of formatting, rules presentation, and just general feel. I look at my Champions book compared to Dark Champions compared to Pulp Hero and Champs is just starting to show it's age. The latter books are simply more elegant. Which takes nothing away from the excellent material in Champions.

 

I'm just saying that it might be due for that 100,000 mile overhaul. Food for thought.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Sorry to toss a tangent in here.

 

I have a better idea of the limitations of the revision now, but don't have anything better than what's already been suggested. However, considering a couple of the ideas and observations made here, it would seem that a full-on overhaul and big-ol revision might be worth considering. Not now, of course, but perhaps for '09 or '10.

 

I think that in the years since HERO 5 was released, there have been a ton of refinements, both in the realm of formatting, rules presentation, and just general feel. I look at my Champions book compared to Dark Champions compared to Pulp Hero and Champs is just starting to show it's age. The latter books are simply more elegant. Which takes nothing away from the excellent material in Champions.

 

 

I'm just saying that it might be due for that 100,000 mile overhaul. Food for thought.

 

Well put.

 

I'm sorry if my earlier post came across as negative.

[Kirby]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

1. Aside from about a line on pages 211-12' date=' we're not aware of any missing text; certainly none has been reported to me as Keeper of the Errata. If you think there are some chunks of text missing, please tell me exactly where in the book you're referring to and I'll check it out. Obviously in a reprint, any missing text will be put back in. [/quote']What about pages 201-202 which reference Icicle? That would probably need to be switched to Snowblind from my understanding (and should be a fairly easy switch).

 

...six to 12 new characters that have stayed "under the radar" in the Champions Universe, thus have no histories as heroes or villians.

 

Alternately, reprint the write-ups of the MC 8 from Digital Heroes, maybe with additional artwork.

With Champions costing $30, I'll most likely not be buying a $30 revision of what I already own (same reason I own FREd, but not 5ER and USPD, but not USPD-R). I would spend my limited funds on a HERO book I don't have (unless I could find some way of selling my copy). Having stated that, if there were a dozen or so characters, especially the MC8 (I don't buy Digital Hero), and maybe some named heroes who've yet to make a book, then I'd be tempted to purchase it providing the price doesn't jump too high from the Revision.

[assault]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I wasn't going to chip in, since there is very little chance that I would buy such a revision, but...

 

I agree with the folks that have pointed out that the Champions genre book is the oldest, and, well, "most aged" of the genre books. Short of a rewrite, I'm not sure that anything much can be done about that, though, given that subsequent books have filled in a lot of the gaps.

 

Having said that, here is my idea:

Which optional rules suit the Superheroic genre best? I would consider discussing this. In particular, things like - is the default handling of Killing Attacks appropriate for a lot of superheroic games? Should a GM planning to run a more or less four colour campaign consider limiting the Stun multiplier, so a character who "should" be bullet-proof actually be "bullet-proof"? What does "bullet-proof" mean, and so on...

 

In other words, a bit more "fixing the game to suit the genre stuff". Of course there is lots of that there already, but...

 

That would be where I would be looking - more genre simulation tips.

 

One of the more feral parts of my brain is also suggesting a reprint of "The Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness", but that's probably not a good idea, and in any case you couldn't call it that.

[Boll Weevil]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Well' date=' this might not make it more useful, but it might help to set the tone (and please feel perfectly free to reject this idea, [i']especially[/i] if others would rather not see this): A Champions Comic story.

 

Again, feel free to turn this down.

 

I have always wanted to see a 10-page comic detailing a Champions combat. At the top of the panel in a yellow box (like comic book narration) would be the GM and players describing on-field events. A typical Champions vs Eurostar bank robbery scene would showcase a couple bricks, a power armor guy , an implant techie, a mentallist, a handful of blasters, martial artists, and, for some reason, a witch battling it out. Panel sidebars would describe damage dice, Multipower point allocation, Perception rolls etc as a background to a familiar comic book fight scene.

[Sundog]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I hate to make more work for you Steve, but a FAQ made up of some of the more interesting (or more common, or both) questions from your 5th ed Rules Questions Forum might really help new players. You'd probably need to expand your answers a bit, to show why a particular answer is correct; and you'd want to trim it to be specifically superhero questions, of course.

[Balabanto]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Uh. Bob? They're comic book characters. He intends to use them for Heroic Publishing, they're comic book characters.

 

Rights have to be renewed every ten years. In print. That's why DC does stupid things like run plots where "We need to use B'wana Beast"

 

Otherwise, like Lightning Girl and the Target and all those other wonderful superheroes of the 1940's and 1950's, I believe they enter the public domain because they're superheroes. We might want to have a lawyer check into that.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Uh. Bob? They're comic book characters. He intends to use them for Heroic Publishing, they're comic book characters.

 

Rights have to be renewed every ten years. In print. That's why DC does stupid things like run plots where "We need to use B'wana Beast"

 

Otherwise, like Lightning Girl and the Target and all those other wonderful superheroes of the 1940's and 1950's, I believe they enter the public domain because they're superheroes. We might want to have a lawyer check into that.

Do so. My understanding of copyright law is that the ten-year rule was superceded quite some time ago.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Only because you haven't seen CU:NotW yet.

 

 

Same sentiment here!

[Kabluey]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I liked the suggestion of putting in some introductory adventure or some such. That would get my vote.

 

Another thought I had was an updated version of the danger room random generator from the old Champions III supplement. Given the ubiquity of danger rooms in comics, this seems like a useful and very genre-specific addition to the book that could still only take a few pages.

[misterdeath]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Do so. My understanding of copyright law is that the ten-year rule was superceded quite some time ago.

 

Copyright is Lifetime of the Owner + 70 years (or 95 years in the case of Work for Hire).

 

Trademark on the other hand, does have to be renewed/defended every so often or they're considered "abandoned".

 

I think that's what Balabanto's referring to.

 

Dunno how it would apply here, since the background information/costume design and the like should fall into Copyright, not Trademark. You might be able to poach the names, though.

 

D

[Hermit]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Here's a thought. How about a map of 5U map of Homestead or some other base. I find myself often searching for easy pre made base maps when starting a Champions game.