Best Pre-5th Edition Material?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I'm looking to find more Champions related material to use with my RPG group. What was some of the better 4th edition stuff? I'm thinking mostly about the material that probably won't be re-printed in 5th edition. I've heard Classic Organizations was good. Any others?

 

Rob

[Deacon Blues]

The first VIPER book is fantastic. I've cribbed from it in creating similar villainous organizations, and the supervillains therein work well independently of VIPER. Plus, the Random Villainy Chart! Plus, the original "Microfilm Madness" scenario!

[TheEmerged]

You'll probably hear at least a few people recommend most of the pre-5th products. Exceptions would probably be The Mutant Files, European Enemies, and High Tech Enemies -- and I'm sure even they have proponents.

 

Eliminating any book already reprinted, personally I would most recommend...

 

Champions of the North (some nice examples of stretching the rules, and one of the few 4th Edition character books with characters that actually resembled things players would use -- also some of the best backstory material for the characters under 4th).

 

Strikefore -- generally accepted as the best HERO product to date, and hard to find as a result.

 

Classic Organizations. The material here is pretty uneven, but includes two of the best things about the 4th Ed Champions Universe -- neither of which has any real chance of making it into the DOJ-era Champions Universe.

 

Ultimate Mentalist. Probably going to be reprinted at some point, it's nonetheless very good at its subject matter.

[Bill_CCHKK]

I'm a big fan of the 4th edition Mind Games. Much of the material is reprinted in CKC and Millenium City (Mind Games details the organization PSI), the original had some good ideas that weren't brought forward in the 5E update.

[GestaltBennie]

Of the ones unlikely to be reprinted or reworked…

 

“Strike Force†by Aaron Allston. All of Aaron’s Hero System work is worth having (and pressing into one’s bosom in delight), but this is his best published Champions work. “The Blood and Dr. McQuark†is also an exceptional piece and one I’d recommend to Champions fans.

“Underworld Enemiesâ€, by Chris Avellone. A early work by one of the best (and most twisted minds in the industry). Avellone’s other Dark Champions work (“Widows and Orphans†and “Asylumâ€) are both highly recommended.

“Kingdom of Champions†by Phil Masters. A good look at Britain for a superhero role-play game, though the abbreviated format for many of the characters is a bit of a pain. “Champions of the North†by Jon Mattson, which provides a similar treatment for Canada, is especially beloved by GMs of low point games, but skirts some of the more controversial political issues (Quebec is particularly underrepresented).

“To Serve and Protect†by Scott Heine. A great look at a superhero team, and a nifty adventure to boot.

“Shadows of the City†by Scott Sigler. The best Hero adventures are by people named Scott, and this one, involving a superhuman cultist, is a good one.

“VOICE of Doom†by Steve Perrin, “The Great Supervillain Contest†by Dennis Mallonee, and "ATLAS Unleashed" are all nifty modules to run.

 

I’m assuming most of the content of Steve’s Dark Champions books, San Angelo, and Normals Unbound will be redone at some point, othewrise I’d also recommend them.

[Le Schtroumpf]

At the time you could almost tour Britain on Kingdom Of Champions. Very cool book.

 

This may sound like a suck up considering the post immediatly north, but I got the most use out of Day of the Destroyer. Even ported it over to an espionage campaign (had to scale it down a bit mind you).

[Arthur]

One of my favorites (the only pre-5th supplement I still have, AAMOF) is Champions in 3D. It's based on the notion of "alternate dimensions". Horror World (an alternate reality where the pulp heroes tried to stop the summoning of a Lovecraft-style horror and failed is one of the most gripping depictions of horror in an RPG supplement.

 

I don't see it mentioned much, so I assume it's not very popular. It's underrated, IMO.

[don]

I too liked Champions in 3-D. It has a lot of good advice for setting up and running alternate dimension games, and a fun run of weird and truly neat ideas for places to go.

 

Underworld Enemies was good for low-level, street-level campaigns, and even has a neat, develop to your tastes storyline running through it.

 

Strike Force is tops, and a lot of great things to lift from it.

 

And I also liked High-Tech Enemies, which had a neat thrust to many of the villains, and interesting ideas for tech-based characters. Kind of related, because of the primary master villain of High-Tech and his company, is Corporations...underrated, I believe, but a great rundown of corporations and companies in the Champions Universe, and very useful advice on using them in campaigns. Indeed, with the 5e focus on applicability and versatility, this is a product that could be done really well in a souped-up version.

 

Finally, I would recommend against the previous Champions Universe sourcebook. An admirable attempt at unifying the CU, it really does tend to ramble, and fall apart in places, although some neat things can be lifted from it. Ultimately, though, 5e CU and Champions sourcebook itself do the job better.

 

Don Walsh

[Chris Goodwin]

For me, in no particular order:

 

* Strike Force

* Blood and Dr. McQuark

* Danger International

* Robot Warriors

* Fantasy Hero

* Mystic Masters

* Enemies: Villainy Unbound (hi, Scott! No, not sucking up!)

* The Gestalt universe (hi again Scott! still not sucking up!) based on the campaign writeups from Red October, so far unpublished

* The Golden Age of Champions

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

You'll probably hear at least a few people recommend most of the pre-5th products. Exceptions would probably be The Mutant Files, European Enemies, and High Tech Enemies -- and I'm sure even they have proponents.

 

I would be one of those.

 

The Mutant Files is a weird book, but that was probably inevitable. It is very much a Champions version of the X-Men circa 1990. Lots of angst, conspiracies that go to the very top of the government, and power levels that would make most GMs blanch. Ever notice how an individual X-man would go to town on a horde of guys that the entire Fantastic Four would consider nasty? That is what The Mutant Underground can do to guys the 4th Ed Champions would find challenging.

 

European Enemies, was just sad. Not a lot of imagination. Lots of national stereotypes, and some serious math and rules errors. Hard to defend as a good product. I will not try.

 

High-Tech enemies was half great. It had a couple of great "theme" mercenary teams that could hold their own with the player characters in a fight and even be used as central villains. It had a pretty decent cyborg team that can be a great moral counterpoint to the "tech is the way" attitude some gadgeteers have. (Cy-Force really makes more sense if the Cyberknights from Allies are NPCs, the best part of that book IMHO). It had a moderate (and superfluous) master villain. The book also had a realllly lame set of space aliens (how are they high tech again?) and one of the worst Matilda May characters I have seen in a gaming supplement.

 

I have used characters from Mutant Files & High-Tech extensively in my game. The teams had relationships that went beyond "A likes B but distrusts C" and connections into the larger world. It was easier to see them as part of a larger superhuman community than it was for characters from alot of the other enemies books. I also likes how strong the concepts and themes of the characters were. I think High Tech enemies still boasts the only super villian team that actually looks like a team. (The Deconstruction Company, anybody know if there character art was ever made avalible anywhere?)

 

To be honest, I was suprised to find out how many detractors these two books had.

[RevHooligan]

Kingdom of Champions is useful for ANY game system. I loved the old Ninja Hero, I haven't compared it to the new one but I assume the good stuff is still there.

3D was very useful for my "Crosstime Caper" ripoff.

I also still use Dark Champions, FH and it's companions.

 

 

And Six String Samurai is the best movie ever.

[Crimson Arrow]

"Strike Force", "VOICE of Doom", and "To Serve and Protect" frequently get good reviews on these boards, but they were pre-4th Ed. The first four items one archer's list are also from that era.

 

Out of the 4th Ed. stuff, I'd say all of my favourites have already come up. I think the one I liked most was "Champions in 3-D". Arthur's analysis of the Horror World is spot on (it even has rules for 4th Ed. style mind-blasting insanity in the style of "Call of Cthulhu"). It has a few other detailed worlds and lots of pages of ideas, for the GM to flesh out.

 

"Kingdom of Champions" and "Champions of the North" were both great, although the former had some poor art in places and the layout was dreadful, at times. The material made up for it.

[Lord Liaden]

I have no disagreement with what other people have already suggested, but because what would be "good" and "useful" to you would depend on what you want to get out of the books, I'm going to try to focus my suggestions on elements at which certain books shine. All of the books below are for 4E, and all are of high quality:

 

Classic Enemies is a general use compendium of supervillains of all types and power levels. Although many of these villains were updated to 5E, quite a few were not, and the ones that were often differ from the versions presented in CE. CE also includes a detailed writeup of the Stronghold super prison.

 

Kingdom of Champions and Champions of the North are both very good sourcebooks for campaigning in England and Canada respectively, with tips on international gaming in general. Lots of interesting characters and useful information, although some references are a little dated now.

 

Golden Age Champions is the book to get if you like that type of campaign. Good historical information, lots of plot ideas, notes on the style and flavor of Golden Age gaming, and plenty of period-style characters.

 

Normals Unbound provides many normal-level characters of all kinds to use as interesting encounters, contacts, resources, rivals or DNPCs. One of the most generally useful 4E supplements.

 

Mystic Masters and The Ultimate Super Mage are both valuable for campaigns focussing on comic-book style magic a la Dr. Strange. MM has a more fully-fleshed campaign setting that you can run out of the box, while USM gives you more resources for developing your own campaign. Both books admirably describe the conventions of the super-magic subgenre, but USM is much broader in scope. USM is still available in the Online Store, but only as an e-book. Several characters from both books have been mentioned as part of the official 5E Champions Universe.

 

The Ultimate Mentalist is almost required if mentalists are going to be a significant part of your campaign. Some of the rules additions and clarifications made it into 5E, but the book still adds many elaborations, options and campaign suggestions to greatly expand the possibilities for using mentalists. It is more a reference and idea book, though, with few characters included.

 

Watchers of the Dragon is in many ways a companion piece to The Ultimate Martial Artist. If you have any interest in martial artist NPCs, Oriental characters, creatures based on Eastern myths, or Oriental style magic, this book has plenty of all of that in the envelope of an interesting multi-part adventure. Quite a few of these characters have been mentioned as being part of the official 5E Champions Universe.

 

Champions in 3-D provides many tips on how to run supers games that cross into alternate worlds, other dimensions etc. Four fully-developed other worlds are provided, as well as short descriptions of many others and a random dimension generator. The flavor of these worlds runs from whimsical to ultra grim.

 

Invasions: Target Earth breaks down the stages of a comic-book style invasion of Earth in considerable detail, showing you how to set one up, run through it, deal with the aftermath, etc. It describes different types of invaders and how they operate, and provides sample writeups, plus an entire sample invasion campaign.

 

Atlantis not only portrays that underwater kingdom in detail - history, geography, NPCs, creatures, Atlantean magic, etc. - but provides extensive rules and guidelines for adventuring in an underwater environment, plus other aquatic villains and useful equipment and vehicles. Although a number of details differ from the 5E CU version of Atlantis, a great deal of it is remarkably similar and could easily be adapted.

 

If you're interested in using the PRIMUS organization in your campaign, I'd recommend the PRIMUS sourcebook available as an e-book in the Online Store. It goes into detail on how PRIMUS operates, with lots of interesting characters, equipment and ideas. This is almost certainly the basis for any future update of the organization.

 

If your interests run toward "street level" supers games in the vein of Batman, Daredevil or the Punisher, Dark Champions: Heroes of Vengeance gives you lots of guidelines on the conventions for that style of game, plus background information about real world criminal and law-enforcement organizations, writeups for guns and other equipment, and many interesting NPCs.

[Agent X]

4th Ed. Champions Universe is great. One of the weaknesses some cite I thought was one of its strengths. The fact that it did not have strong unifying theme made it feel very much like the comic books you read from DC or Marvel. It also has a great adventure in the back of the book that doesn't get talked about enough on these boards.

 

Classic Organizations and Viper combine to give you lots of reptilian villains and some interesting ideas.

 

To Serve and Protect is a great example of how a superhero team can be built.

 

Don't look for Strikeforce. I don't need any more competition for this rare gem.

 

I go for books that tend not to be too hero heavy so I would place Kingdom of Champions, Champions of the North, and Allies down on the list. I have heroes. I'm looking for villains.

[Southern Cross]

4th Edition Sourcebooks

 

Actually,I enjoyed Allies.Not only did it introduce several possible allies,it introduced several possible foes:

(1) The Aryan.A Neo-Nazi trying to be a hero.That's right-a facist who realized that Nazism needed a new look.

(2)The Flashmen.Fakers-jerks who take the credit from more deserving heroes.

(3)Zen Scorpion.A former member of Zencorp's Zen Team,this guy pretends to be a "honorable supervillain".This is a lie,as is his entire background.

(4)Interference.The unluckiest hero on Earth.

I can also recommend Enemies:Assemble.Any book that can make Foxbat a dangerous opponent deserves to be read.

[death tribble]

I would back the chorus on the Viper Sourcebook, To Serve and Protect, Strike Force and the Kingdom of Champions.

But I liked most of the stuff. Some of the later enemies books like the International File and Scourge of the Deep I found not as good.

 

Now to encite some hatred. I have the Strike Force book but I also have a spare copy. Condition not too good but readable.

Unfortunately I have the Atlantic between me and therest of you.

[Brandi]

Originally posted by Jhamin

High-Tech enemies was half great. ... The book also had a realllly lame set of space aliens (how are they high tech again?) and one of the worst Matilda May characters I have seen in a gaming supplement.

 

Matilda May? Is this anything like the eponymous "Mary Sue" of bad fanfiction (is that redundant) fame?

[Just A Guy Name]

I'm surprised more people do not favourably remember The Blood And Dr. McQuark. The section on the Dr. never worked for me, but the Blood continues to be a presence in my games to this day. Some of the family are featured prominently in the Strikeforce sourcebook,also.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Just A Guy Name

I'm surprised more people do not favourably remember The Blood And Dr. McQuark. The section on the Dr. never worked for me, but the Blood continues to be a presence in my games to this day. Some of the family are featured prominently in the Strikeforce sourcebook,also.

 

I remember The Blood fondly. The problem is I haven't had a copy of the book since about '87, so I have a hard time remembering enough about it to comment on it. I fact a lot of the earliest suppliments are rare enough that very little is said about any of them good or bad.

[Lord Liaden]

This raises a point worth clarifying: Dr. MID-Nite, you specifically mentioned 4th Edition material. Is that as far back in the Champions stuff as you wish to go, or would you also be interested in 3rd Ed. or earlier? Lots of it is quite good and useful, but the differences between 3E and 5E are much larger than 4E and 5E, making conversion more of a chore.

 

Of the books already favorably mentioned, the following are pre-4E: Strike Force, The Blood and Dr. McQuark, To Serve and Protect, VOICE of Doom, The Great Supervillain Contest, and Enemies: Villainy Unbound. Robot Warriors and Danger International are also pre-4E, but are separate games from 3E Champions from when the HERO System wasn't unified, so have other differences. I'd be happy to give input on any of these books if you'd like.

[tiger]

Classic Organizations, Mostly for C.L.O.W.N. & Demon

Classic Enemies

Viper

Mind Games

[Tom McCarthy]

Classic Enemies, Mind Games, VIPER, all great books with tons of use. Zodiac Conspiracy was great inspiration, but had some issues regarding details; ditto for Alien Enemies. Champions Presents #1 & 2 were strong material, as was Champions in 3-D.

 

High-Tech Enemies and Mutant File had a lower percentage of the material used, as did Allies, Atlantis, Watchers of the Dragon (great read, though), Hudson City Blues and Enemies Assemble or Enemies For Hire.

[TheEmerged]

Speaking for myself? Mutant Files and High Tech have some of the "cheapest" characters I've seen in published form -- and I mean "cheap" as in "bad" not as in inexpensive. I also have a personal gripe with High Tech because the book attempts to excuse what is one of the dumbest thematic mistakes of 4th Edition (The Defender Exploit).

 

I can't believe I forgot Champions 3-D. Yeah, that belongs on any "must buy" list of previous Champions material. A couple of their counterfactuals are... let's be nice and say dodgy. They are however dodgy in ways that are true to superheroic genre convention (if laughable by counterfactual genre convention), so I'll excuse them.

[tiger]

I'd like them to re-do the Mutant file. Aim it more at Genocide/IAH and some other anti & pro mutant groups.

 

Plus a nice group of mutants villains to add to the CKC list. Can never have to many villains.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Brandi

Matilda May? Is this anything like the eponymous "Mary Sue" of bad fanfiction (is that redundant) fame?

 

I've heard both terms used interchangeably.