[Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Well, note, the ruling against MPAs only applies to Elemental Controls. As long as you can come up with the points for multiple attack powers, you can MPA with a multipower or VPP to your heart's content.

 

For an EC, its a somewhat arbitrary restriction for game balance, but then again, the EC is a somewhat arbitrary power framework. There has to be *some* restrictions on it, or else its free points back.

 

In fact, as per 5ER p. 358, that restriction on multiple slots used for a MPA now extends to all Power Frameworks, regardless of how large their Reserve is. GM's permission for exemptions, of course.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Well, note, the ruling against MPAs only applies to Elemental Controls. As long as you can come up with the points for multiple attack powers, you can MPA with a multipower or VPP to your heart's content.

 

For an EC, its a somewhat arbitrary restriction for game balance, but then again, the EC is a somewhat arbitrary power framework. There has to be *some* restrictions on it, or else its free points back.

 

5er provides that you cannot use two powers within a multipower (or, I believe, within a VPP) in a MPA. EDIT: LL beat me to it.

 

To the EC issue, I prefer the idea of allowing the EC to MPA, this differentiating it from the Swiss Army Multipower and providing a benefit to a character who pays the freight to buy several attacks within an EC, rather than within a Multipower.

 

But then, I find it hard to credit the assertion that any imbalance in the EC can be corrected by singling out attack powers (or powers that, by default, cost no END) for special treatment.

[Metaphysician]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Fair point, but the problem is ultimately that the Elemental Control *has* no good natural and inherent balancing factor.

 

As such, I would favor eliminating it entirely.

[ghost-angel]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

On Personal Immunity.

 

There is an option that two characters with the same SFX and one with Personal Immunity are immune to the other characters powers as well as their own.

 

In the case of Dr Vox this would mean Howler.

[Balabanto]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

And any other sonic based character who happened to have a similar effect.

[Metaphysician]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

I never liked that rule, since Personal Immunity is something that effects a given power. How many powers does a person need to have with personal immunity before they are unaffected by a slightly different construct used by Identical SFX Opponent?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

I never liked that rule' date=' since Personal Immunity is something that effects a given power. How many powers does a person need to have with personal immunity before they are unaffected by a slightly different construct used by Identical SFX Opponent?[/quote']

 

I think the idea of that optional rule was to allow a GM to introduce an interresting twist to a story without having every little detail planned in advance.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Got my copy yesterday, just read thru it this evening after work. Pretty good stuff. Im not super fond of most of the new characters, with a few exceptions, but I enjoyed seeing the new versions of some old favorites, and of course the "official" version of how several of the adventures I ran for my own Millennial Men campaign turned out.

 

I also got a nice little buzz seeing Commando Rubberbando! and the rest of the MC-8 mentioned

 

 

Good book, makes me want to play Champions again.

[Hermit]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

I also got a nice little buzz seeing Commando Rubberbando! and the rest of the MC-8 mentioned

 

.

 

I DEFINITELY want this book now

 

EDIT: Who am I kidding? I wanted it already.

[rjcurrie]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

I actually can't figure out what your saying at all, so. . . my own logic.

 

Personal Immunity means you can't be effected by your own power. Thus, if you get caught in your own Area Effect, or have it Reflected at you, or if somebody mimicks it, your safe.

 

Dr Vox's PI is essentially useless, because even against the Great Reflecto-Mimic Man, her own Flash Defense and Sonic Damage Reduction provide so much protection as to make the PI only of extremely marginal benefit.

 

Are you following a different interpretation of PI than I am? Because really, the source special effect for superpowers of any kind really isn't relevant to PI, as your not immune to your SFX, your immune to your powers, specifically.

 

Your interpretation is the one that I've always used too. I suspect that Steve or Darren just felt that the advantage was logical for the character as conceptualized. And does it really matter if it's a slight inefficiency? I don't have the book yet, but since it appears Dr Vox is one of the higher level characters, I suspect she is built using a large experience bonus, so removing the PI would likely just mean that the experience bonus would be lower.

[Metaphysician]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Nah, its more that she could really use the full DCs from the 75 point multipower, much more than the PI. Wouldn't make any difference on her total points.

[MitchellS]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

I got home today and found mine sitting on the table waiting for me! Hurray!!! I've only flipped through the book so far but I'm liking what I'm seeing in there. Good stuff all around!

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Cover Art: 2

Interior Art: 3 (Most of which was reused)

Contents: 3 (Useful to new GMs)

Layout: 2 (WTF Happened here?)

 

Overall: 2.5 (Not worth the price I paid)

 

 

Damn it

 

 

QM

[MitchellS]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Cover Art: 2

Interior Art: 3 (Most of which was reused)

Contents: 3 (Useful to new GMs)

Layout: 2 (WTF Happened here?)

 

Overall: 2.5 (Not worth the price I paid)

 

 

Damn it

 

 

QM

Just goes to show you how subjective things are. I thought the cover was one of the best on a Champs book in some time. I'm not sure what your layout issues are though. It's the same layout pattern that Hero Games has always used.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

The Cover Art was a nice idea, but not my style of art. Really not my favourite. The Champions do not look right.

 

Maybe we got the same book? The layout looks haphazard in comparison to most Hero Products.

 

 

The new Interior Art was hit an miss. I am not sure about a few of the pieces. Maybe its the production value rather than the original. I'll get page numbers to run it down.

 

 

More later

 

 

QM

[ghost-angel]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

The Cover Art was a nice idea, but not my style of art. Really not my favourite. The Champions do not look right.

 

Maybe we got the same book? The layout looks haphazard in comparison to most Hero Products.

 

Interesting.

 

The order in the chapters was close to the order of things in the original sourcebook. The character chapters were layed out the same as every single character/monster book to date.

 

The only discrepency from this books layout compared to all the other books was that the last chapter gave an update of Organizations before Mastervillains. Normally enemies books are organized Master Villains/Organizations/Solo Villains.

 

Everything else was, well, standard Hero fair. I'm interested in a detailed look from your side of the fence.

[MitchellS]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

The Cover Art was a nice idea' date=' but not my style of art. Really not my favourite. The Champions do not look right.[/quote']

The art has an anime/JLU feel to it which I thought was fun. If I had any complaint about the cover at all it would be the inclusion of Nighthawk rather then Nightwind on the cover.

 

Maybe we got the same book? The layout looks haphazard in comparison to most Hero Products.

The only layout point that seems different to me from any other Champs book was the blank page on #44 [i'd have stuck something in there even if it was only an old picture from Vibora Bay]. Other then that everything else seems exactly the same with the standard 2 columns and wide outer margin. Even the per-page white space seems to be average.

 

The new Interior Art was hit an miss. I am not sure about a few of the pieces. Maybe its the production value rather than the original. I'll get page numbers to run it down.

I can agree that some of the art was not to my liking [not that I haven't said that about Champions books for a couple of years now ] but I don't believe that has anything to do with layout. If anything that should've been included in your art rating [which it seems it was].

 

Assuming a 1-5 scale I'd rate the book as:

 

Cover Art: 4 [better then most of the Champs covers consisting of only an interior picture]

Interior Art: 2 [too much reused and much of the new art is too dark and stylized to fit a four-color book]

Content: 4 [plenty of characters and a lot of useful content for CU GMs]

Layout: 3 [Hero standard. Nothing flashy or innovative]

Overall: 3.25

 

I was very pleased with the book considering it's the first CU book I have bought in nearly a year that had new content in it. I'd have given a little more thought to the writeups in regard to end usage [most seem to use too much end per turn] but little tweaks like that are easy to fix myself. If you like the CU this is a good addition, IMO.

[Silbeg]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

He failed a standard drug test and was banned from the book. After a period of detox he passed and was admitted to Villains' date=' Vandals, And Vermin.[/b']

 

They are testing villains for drugs? Wow, just when it seemed safe to use the Metatron again.

[Silbeg]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

In fact' date=' as per 5ER p. 358, that restriction on multiple slots used for a MPA now extends to all Power Frameworks, regardless of how large their Reserve is. GM's permission for exemptions, of course.[/quote']

 

Which I kind of think is silly. Thus, in my game, I typically allow it.

The only key here is watching the possible combos in an MP to make sure there isn't anything too heinous (which you would have to do, anyways), and that the reserve is large enough for both.

 

I would be more hesitant to allow this in a VPP, _unless_ the powers being used in an MPA are basically without Limitations. Otherwise, there is too much opportunity for abuse.

 

On the ECs, I absolutely agree with the interpretation, since the Powers in an EC are supposed to represent a single power.

[Silbeg]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

I think the idea of that optional rule was to allow a GM to introduce an interresting twist to a story without having every little detail planned in advance.

 

I always thought that this rule was to simulate the interaction between Cyclops's and Havoc's powers, where the brothers are immune to each others' powers (and I would assume their own powers).

 

I would say that you should have more than SFX in common, etc... that there be a more direct link between the powers.

 

In any case, when I create characters (especially blasters), I tend to add additional defenses, only against that SFX.

 

An example would be Absolute Zero (a cold blaster) who has +10 ED vs Cold (only)

[MitchellS]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

I always thought that this rule was to simulate the interaction between Cyclops's and Havoc's powers, where the brothers are immune to each others' powers (and I would assume their own powers).

 

I would say that you should have more than SFX in common, etc... that there be a more direct link between the powers.

 

In any case, when I create characters (especially blasters), I tend to add additional defenses, only against that SFX.

 

An example would be Absolute Zero (a cold blaster) who has +10 ED vs Cold (only)

Personal immunity always seemed a little too expensive for me. I'd have preferred to see it handled as an adder rather then an advantage. A 5 pt cost would be more the sufficient to cover how limited it really is in most cases.

[name_tamer]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Personal immunity always seemed a little too expensive for me. I'd have preferred to see it handled as an adder rather then an advantage. A 5 pt cost would be more the sufficient to cover how limited it really is in most cases.

 

IMO it makes more sense when you consider things like area-affecting attacks with the "No Range" limitation.

[Enforcer84]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Personal immunity always seemed a little too expensive for me. I'd have preferred to see it handled as an adder rather then an advantage. A 5 pt cost would be more the sufficient to cover how limited it really is in most cases.

a good point, especially if it is truely only an immunity to your own powers. (I seem to remember the "Brothers" example in the Advantage)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Overall, I find the MPA rules as applied to frameworks to be excessively restrictive.

 

Which I kind of think is silly. Thus' date=' in my game, I typically allow it. The only key here is watching the possible combos in an MP to make sure there isn't anything too heinous (which you would have to do, anyways), and that the reserve is large enough for both.[/quote']

 

I agree that a reserve large anough for two+ powers (or, alternatively, flexible slots whose total doesn't exceed the pool) seems reasonable for an MPA.

 

I would be more hesitant to allow this in a VPP' date=' _unless_ the powers being used in an MPA are basically without Limitations. Otherwise, there is too much opportunity for abuse.[/quote']

 

I would suggest that allowing MPA's with powers in a VPP is not problematic if these are restricted to total AP not exceeding the pool. Thus, with a 60 point pool, you could MPA a 10d6 EB and a 2d6 Flash, but the total AP of the powers in the MPA could not exceed the 60 point limit of the pool itself.

 

On the ECs' date=' I absolutely agree with the interpretation, since the [b']Powers [/b]in an EC are supposed to represent a single power.

 

Power: Light Control. Is it unreasonable to have such a power both blind and injure a target (ie Flash and Energy Blast)?

 

Power: Temperature Control. An attack which numbs the target (DEX drain) and injures him (RKA or EB) also seems reasonable.

 

From a mechanics viewpoint, it's a lot cheaper to have 3 attacks in a Multipower than in an EC. The ability to MPA provides some benefit for the less cost-effective framework.

 

Now, it's also cheaper than buying each power outside a framework, so that can be a justification for "only one power from any given framework", but I prefer the interpretation that frameworks are not inherently abusive, and restricting MPA's beyond limits imposed based on the AP of the VPP and MP is neither necessary nor desirable.

[OddHat]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

You can already effectively MPA at will with a VPP; a compound power containing a 10d6 EB and a 2d6 Flash is legal in a 60 point VPP.