I am a comic book dinosaur.

[JimLotFP]

I'm gearing up for my superhero game, and I realized my understanding of superhero comic books is decades out of date.

 

The newest item in my collection (in terms of when it was originally published) in my collection is The Long Halloween story (Batman). That's 1998 I do believe.

 

Before that? Watchmen.

 

I stopped reading DC continuity with Crisis on Infinite Earths.

 

I stopped reading Marvel continuity with Fall of the Mutants. I have never read a comic book with Gambit or Cable...

 

The bulk of my purchases the past few years have been Marvel Essentials, and that's a good deal of money and a LOT of reading... but that's all 60s and 70s stuff really (or non-supers stuff like Bone and Cerebus), so I've only fooled myself into thinking "I'm into it!"

 

(a friend let me borrow the Rising Stars story so there is a hint of modernity to my sensibilities)

 

(I have an order on the way, but that's Green Arrow/Green Lantern reprints from 1970 I think it is, plus Marvels, which is 1994...)

 

So I need suggestions of where to go from here. In the near future I'm going to dump a decent order on Amazon (if I was still in the States I'd use a comic shop)...

 

Here are titles/series that I'm looking at. Tell me which would be the best choices, and what else I should be looking at. My preferences go towards villains who have intelligent motivations (ideally thinking they themselves are doing good things - I always hated villain groups that used the words "evil" or "crime" in their names), the effect of supers on the normal population, and stories of heroic redemption.

 

Astro City

The Authority

Identity Crisis

Infinite Crisis

Justice

Kingdom Come

Powers

 

(What about the Marvel side? Reading DC stories 20 years later won't much affect me, I have no real attachment to those characters in the first place. Discovering what's happened to all my old favorites on the Marvel side, well, that might be depressing... but I guess I'll deal. No Civil War, please!)

 

Also looking at (not necessarily modern stuff): Moore's Swamp Thing, Batman stuff (Arkham Asylum, Dark Knight Strikes Again, Year One, Year One Hundred, Dark Victory, Hush), Morrison JLA and Doom Patrol collections, JLA: The Nail...

 

Help me narrow things down.

[MitchellS]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Forget the comics. Buy the Justice League and Justice League Unlimited DVDs instead.

[Captain Liberty]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Forget the comics. Buy the Justice League and Justice League Unlimited DVDs instead.

 

Not a bad bit of advice at all. Particularly for someone with your background, these stories will probably fit your idea of the DC universe almost exactly.

 

Lamentably, there has not been something similar for Marvel. But I have just about given up on Marvel except for some individual quirky series. For recent Marvel, I'd suggest, and this is just me:

 

Avengers by Kurt Busiek

Avengers by Geoff Johns (though Kurt was better, in my opinion)

Alpha Flight (recent series, by Scott Lobdell, may be too quirky for you)

Thunderbolts by Busiek and by Nicieza (sp?). I avoid the current version, though that is mostly because they chose a cast of the Marvel characters I avoid most.

Gravity (a nice little superhero coming into his own miniseries - Marvel just killed the character off, which pretty much sums up why I don't read much Marvel)

I read good things about recent She-Hulks, but I haven't been following them.

There was a nice Heroes for Hire (not the current one - though that has its charms) a few years back, but I don't think it sold well enough to get its own TPB. Pity.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Grab the THING: IDOL OF MILLIONS TPB.

 

Second the Busiek Avengers and Thunderbolts. They cross over a few times and Hawkeye switches titles, so complement each other well.

 

52 was good, but I don't care much for the stuff before or after it.

 

Pop over to NGD, several comic related threads there that should have plenty of recommendations.

[Theron]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

For Marvel, I highly recommend the various Marvel Adventures titles (Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Avengers, Iron Man). They're ostensibly aimed at kids, but I enjoy the heck out of them. Each issue is self-contained, very true to the original concepts of the characters, and delightfully free of the baggage the mainstream Marvel lines are laden with.

 

Best of all, they're available in digest-sized collections for about seven bucks a pop.

[Comic]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Re-read what you have.

 

You can't go wrong with the classics.

[Spence]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

I'm gearing up for my superhero game' date=' and I realized my understanding of superhero comic books is [i']decades [/i]out of date.

.

 

Help me narrow things down.

 

ARRRGGGHHHHH! Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

 

You are not a dinosaur! Stay in the past. I like you had stopped reading when comics were comics. I too realized what I knew and liked had changed. and I too read many of the "great" books of today.

 

and I will never be able to erase them from my mind again.

 

essentially "modern" comic have shifted from being stories about iconic heroes to be stories about people with regular normal ethics and mindsets with superpowers. You have the re-tooled once iconic heroes whacking and killing like they were crack heads or drug dealers in a drug war. The new fans say it is more realistic and that may be true. But if I want realism I watch the news or a crime drama.

 

I had tried to start several games based on the "new" stuff and they fell through. Recently I said to {beep} with it and am running a game with the feel of the old style comics and it is going strong. I had to lean on the players during character creation to get superheroes instead of "dark vengeful vigilantes who walk alone in the darkness and angst" clones.

 

It took a couple sessions for them to let go, but now instead of just enjoying themselves they are having FUN!

 

Don't sell us dinosaurs short, there is a reason all the new superhero movies are based on the events and timelines from the 80's and earlier.

 

 

Yay Team!! :D

[Darren Watts]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

You shouldn't miss Astro City, though. The first few collections include some of the best comics writing ever, particularly "The Nearness Of You" and "Tarnished Angel."

 

I'm an enormous fan of the Morrison Doom Patrols, but they're just barely superheroes and are only recommended if you like literate surrealism crossed with drug-addled low comedy (like me, and if you do, the Brotherhood of Dada will be revelatory.) His JLA is much more straightforward, but frequently suffers from being rushed and the climaxes tending to poop out; Morrison's great with both dialogue and plotting, not so much with pacing.

 

For more straightforward superheroing that might be more to your tastes, I'd also recommend the Mark Waid Flash stories and his JLA: Year One. Very satisfying old-school heroics without insulting your intelligence. Also, maybe take a look at Moore's Tom Strong. dw

[Sketchpad]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Pretty much anything by Waid is good ... at least in my book If you can snag some off hie Brave and the Bold issues, I highly recommend them ... the match of Waid and Perez is on par with the match of Busiek and Perez on Avengers

[Evil Steve]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Astro City is top notch. Get it without hesitation. Its creates a believable and consistant universe that succeeds where other "realistic superhero worlds" fail.

 

Kingdom Come is good, but limited in its scope. If you want to read what comics can be a the top of their game, get it.

 

Justice, while good and pretty, is a single story arc. Definitely worth the money I'm spending.

 

And I gotta agree with MitchellS, the Justice League DVDs are a great alternative

[Guest steamteck]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Forget the comics. Buy the Justice League and Justice League Unlimited DVDs instead.

 

 

As a fellow dinosaur let me agree with that completely . Save yourself lots of anger, horror and frustration at the changes in modern comics.

[psm]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

For Marvel you could try:

Agents of Atlas (I think the tpb is coming out soon)

Astonishing X-Men

Runaways (comes in cheap digest size).

 

The series are pretty recent but have that old world feeling you're looking for.

[Spence]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Forget the comics. Buy the Justice League and Justice League Unlimited DVDs instead.

 

As a fellow dinosaur let me agree with that completely . Save yourself lots of anger' date=' horror and frustration at the changes in modern comics.[/quote']

 

Do the JL and JLU dvd's really have the old feel. I have never watched them out of fear

[Pyre-Archer]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Do the JL and JLU dvd's really have the old feel. I have never watched them out of fear

 

If by 'old feel', you mean the heroes are heroic, the villains are dastardly, and there's no excessive retconning, then yes. It's *good* oldschool heroes. I'll confess to being vaguely tempted to pick up World War Hulk, but I'll pass until the GN comes out. And a good review.

 

FWIW, I've pawed through some of the JLU comics, and they don't seem half bad. One even had the Crimson Avenger, another the Golden Age Flash.

 

Pyre-Archer

-"And you know I'm all about old school"

Bill, Kill Bill v.2

[JimLotFP]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

I was unclear, when I said I was looking at "titles/series" I meant TPBs in all cases... it wouldn't be economical for me to go after the monthly issues...

 

As for the Justice League cartoons... well, I'm never looking for an excuse to sit in front of the television more, but I'll take it under advisement. (I am going to get Heroes in a couple months on DVD though... never seen it, and avoided reading anything about it once I found out what it was... don't want to spoil it. )

 

It's disturbing how much people disavow current comics though.

[Spence]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

If by 'old feel', you mean the heroes are heroic, the villains are dastardly, and there's no excessive retconning, then yes. It's *good* oldschool heroes. I'll confess to being vaguely tempted to pick up World War Hulk, but I'll pass until the GN comes out. And a good review.

 

I'm going to have to stop reading these boards.....

 

Now I have to get yet another DVD set.....sigh.....

 

 

 

[Spence]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

(I am going to get Heroes in a couple months on DVD though... never seen it' date=' and avoided reading anything about it once I found out what it was... don't want to spoil it. )[/quote']

 

I just say you'll enjoy it

 

 

It's disturbing how much people disavow current comics though.

 

To be fair most of us that do are older and remember good comics.

 

If you grew up with the recent stuff my guess is you would like them.......but they also like fake wrestling and reality shows......

[lapsedgamer]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

I just say you'll enjoy it

 

 

 

 

To be fair most of us that do are older and remember good comics.

 

If you grew up with the recent stuff my guess is you would like them.......but they also like fake wrestling and reality shows......

 

I wouldn't say that all modern comics are "bad". I just don't think I would want to play in a game based on many of them. While it seems like it would be fun to play The Authority or the Ultimates, the level of dysfunction and darkness would sap the fun out of the omnipotence. What makes an interesting read does not always make an enjoyable RPG session.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

You can't go wrong with Astro City. It is pure cream. Kingdom Come is decent. The Timm style DCU Animated series are all great. My favorite is Batman Beyond, but I love em all.

 

Everything else, skip it. It doesn't live up to the hype.

 

 

Having said that, I think you may be missing out on an opportunity. Instead of bemoaning the datedness of your comics knowledge, instead revel in it to forge a great Silver Age game.

[JimLotFP]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Having said that' date=' I think you may be missing out on an opportunity. Instead of bemoaning the datedness of your comics knowledge, instead revel in it to forge a great Silver Age game.[/quote']

 

I don't think I can, for several reasons.

 

1- I have three interested players that I'm trying to figure out schedules with. The oldest is nineteen - thirteen years younger than I am. None of them read comics that I'm aware of, so having the idea of running a game based on a set of assumptions decades back from a medium they don't even read... this will end in tears.

 

2- I don't know how my players want to do it. I set the situations, but the game is theirs. I won't allow characters whose entire powerset involves big guns, but even someone with a 10d6 regular energy blast can rack up a serious body count if they aren't paying attention - or trying to do so. I'm going to respond to how they act... if they act "superheroic," then I'll be more than happy to prop up genre conventions of secret identities, DNPCs not getting assassinated easy-as-that, etc. If they are casual killers who act above all consequences... then they will be drown in those consequences. Part of my intent is to present many tests of their heroic faith, to see what they do (the indie gaming movement is very inspiring to me in feel and intent, but I don't like playing games that tie mechanic to narrative as that makes the game itself very limited to me as those games can't seem to handle anything outside of their specific focus).

 

3- The things in comics that ring true to me... Watchmen's Keene Act... Dark Knight Returns "We must not remind them that giants walk the Earth"... how the Avengers were hounded leading up to the Kree-Skrull War or Tony Stark being subpoenad to reveal secrets of the Iron Man armor for national defense... I believe that if superpowers were to spontaneously appear in a small population (I can't imagine the number of superpowered people in my campaign to go above a couple/few dozen unless it turns into a years-long game) that the establishment would go out of their minds to cover up/contain it.

 

My game is going to have a complicated chart of government and media figures, how they react at certain points, and campaign even triggers that happen when a certain combination of attitudes are reached with certain figures... which will all be background to what happens session-to-session, until the triggers happen. I'm already making up little props, too: http://www.lotfp.com/HERO/Graphics/timecover1.gif

 

I just think I have modern sensibilities, and while my idea of heroism is that classic values transcend modern circumstances, I'd like to see where the actual comic books have gone exploring this kind of thing.

[input.jack]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

I think the best thing you can POSSIBLY do is what my game group did to initiate a new Player, who had never had the slightest interest in comics, into how we play Supers.

 

We sat her down and showed her the opening few episodes of the JLA/JLU animated series.

 

She now owns JLA, JLU, and Batman Seasons 1-3, and is wanting to pick up the rest of Batman, Batman Beyond, and Superman.

 

I already own them all.

 

I am a Bronze Age relic. Says so in my tag-line, even! And even though the DCAU changes a few things in the timeline (John Stewart is Green Lantern, Wonder Woman doesnt make her first appearance until modern times), these are both easy to handle and necessary because of the transition from a comics medium into televised animation.

 

I love these series. Bruce Timm is truly "one of us"; he understands that Superheroes are both Super AND Heroes. They have obstacles to overcome, and none of them is perfect, but they never stop trying to do whats right.

 

I cannot recommend them highly enough.

 

Do yourself a favor and rent or buy the first season of Justice League. Watch a few episodes.

 

Then youll have to figure out how to acquire the JLA/JLU sets, the Batman animated series (not the one thats showing now; the one that started in the 90s. Bruce Timm is the pivotal member of the creative team), and the animated Superman series, too. Theyre all gold.

[Markdoc]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

Here's my take: I stopped reading mainstream Marvel and DC titles years back (like you) and by Thor's Mighty Hammer, I'm glad I did!

 

However, I still collect carefully chosen trades and *like* some (but only some) modern titles, angst and all. Here's my picks:

 

Astro City - can't go wrong. Classic heroics, but painted with modern sensibility and just great stories. Quasi-realistic, but not dark or broody.

 

The Authority. I like (or liked) the Authority - at least the initial run by Ellis: an attempt to portray the effect of having a real world team with ultra level powers. That covers the first three story-arcs: The Circle, Shiftships, and The Outer Dark, up until the death of the team leader Jenny Sparks. Do not, for the sake of your own sanity, go further. That's where the original creative team intended the series to end. The writers who followed (starting with Mark "Civil War" Millar) kept the power and occasional ruthlessness of the original series and just upped the foul language, ultraviolence and sex. In its place that's fine, but to add it simply for shock value gets old pretty damn fast, and the plotlines are ... well, just silly.

 

By the same writer (Ellis) is Planetary: it's set in the same universe and involves two teams of mustually hostile superpowered folks conducting covert operations, but also including lashings of pulp heroes, wierd science, HP Lovecraft, etc. I await no TPB as eagerly as Planetary except maybe "Med Kappe og Kårde" - and I figure the latter's no good to you!

 

Kingdom Come - very good. Takes some of the same basic ideas as the Authority and Civil War (but in the DC universe) and shows how Civil war should have been done. And it's so pretty!

 

Powers - I like this one. I haven't been collecting it (yet) but have been reading it at the library. Quirky, and dark but not at all cruel or nasty. But people seem to either love or hate the art style (me, I like it).

 

You've already mentioned Rising Stars, so I'll just note I thought it was a decent read.

 

As for the Batman stuff (Arkham Asylum, Dark Knight Strikes Again, Year One, Year One Hundred, Dark Victory, Hush), the Dark Knight Strikes again is painfully lame, Year One and Year 100 are OK'ish and .... well, meh. I used to be a fan, but now I'm just tired of Batguy. I haven't realy enjoyed any of his appearances since Kingdom Come (apart from his cameo in Planetary). I know it ain't happening, but it's time to hang up the bat-cape and spend some quality time with a glass of bat-scotch and the bat-slippers.

 

cheers, Mark

[assault]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

None of them read comics that I'm aware of' date=' so having the idea of running a game based on a set of assumptions decades back from a medium they don't even read... this will end in tears.[/quote']

 

OK. Have they seen the X-Men and Spider-Man movies? The Incredibles? Mystery Men? (Have you?)

 

It might be just as easy to base your game on this kind of material.

[Plex]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

JSA still has that great "old time" feel to the comic- well it has all the old time heroes so go figure- and is probably one of the best monthly issues out there. JLA is working its way back to being that way too, or at least that is what I feel they are doing.

 

I haven't read Marvel with any regularity since the Infinity Gauntlet. Though the J. Michael Straczynski stuff, I believe, is really well done.

 

I do like some of the "modern" comics but I still reread a lot of my older ones- especially those written by Waid, Morrison, Gaiman, Milligan, Giffen, and David. I know there are others, but those are the main ones.

 

 

I definitely agree with everyone here about the animated shows, though. Those really capture that feel you are looking for.

[JimLotFP]

Re: I am a comic book dinosaur.

 

OK. Have they seen the X-Men and Spider-Man movies? The Incredibles? Mystery Men? (Have you?)

 

It might be just as easy to base your game on this kind of material.

 

Yeah, movies are pretty much the reference points for the players. I've seen all the movies mentioned except The Incredibles. I loved Mystery Men - The Shoveller is my hero. People say that movie's a parody of superheroes but I find that it is not, it's a real superhero story, with comedy added to it, which is not the same thing!

 

When it comes to movies about established characters though... I can't stand the Marvel ones. Because I know these characters. And the movies screw up everything I knew! (it's interesting that the X-Men movies all concentrate on characters I was quite familiar with when I stopped reading 12 years before the first one came out). DC movies like Batman Begins and Superman Returns I just took as they were (and liked them).