How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

[Cancer]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

I once provided "KS: Earthworks" to a character I created for someone; the character was a lifer sergeant in a heavy infantry unit in a fantasy campaign. Came in useful when they had to dig their way in a trench up to a fortified position.

[BNakagawa]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

My thought is that most professionals never get to 14- levels of competence. If 11- is good enough to get a job' date=' then smarter ones with 12- or 13- are good enough to be noteworthy and sought after. Lawyers with 14- and better are remarkable; like Johnny Cochran or F. Lee Bailey (and one could argue there that their success is as much due to Oratory and/or Persuasion as legal skill).[/quote']

 

I think it depends on whether the profession is best modeled by opposing rolls or not.

 

A lawyer is well served by generating an extremely high roll because they will be actively opposed by their opposition. (at least they ought to be)

 

A ditch digger doesn't need a high roll. They're not in competition with anyone once their job's been started.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

I tried mandating a certain number of points to skills and had two problems. First, almost every character took Acrobatics, Breakfall, Stealth, and as often as not, Acting, which wasn't exactly the rounded background I was going for. Second, some character backgrounds really precluded a lot of skills (a newly created android character or young teen for instance) so a mandatory number of skills didn't make sense in some cases.

 

What I found worked best to encourage players to pick up skills was to tell them to just look over the skill list and consider which of those skills would be useful for their character's background. Frequently the players would look and say, "Oh yeah, I didn't even think of that skill; sure my character should be able to do that."

 

Then ask them what "background" skills would be pertinent. To encourage selection of KS, PS, and SS, I would point out that they often could be used as Complimentary skills (which I often give a +1 bonus for just having the skill instead of making them roll), and with a Skill Enhancer like Scholar, they cost just as much on a 9+CHA/5 as it would to raise the standard skill by +1, so might as well take the "background" skill.

 

Also consider that a character who is a doctor would logically have Paramedic, but probably also has stuff like SS: Anatomy, SS: Pharmacology, and SS: Medical Specialty (neurology, surgery, pediatrics, or whatever), each of which likely boosts the Paramedic roll. Would you go to a doctor that only had the basic familiarity with anatomy that Paramedic would provide? Of course not. The same is true for many professions.

 

Finally, to encourage skill use, make skills easy to use. In many instances just let the character succeed simply for having the skill; only make them roll in skill contests and under difficult circumstances. And when they do roll, give them the benefit of the doubt for bonuses and go light on the penalties unless they are trying something patently ridiculous or the attempt is really supposed to be hard for some plot reason. If skills fail most of the time, players will tend to buy powers instead; why buy a heavily penalized Lockpicking skill when you can buy the "Open Sesame" spell as a Minor Transform and always succeed? And yes that example is from personal experience.

 

Otherwise, I whole-heartedly agree with the previous posts about the GM incorporating skills into the game to encourage the player to take them.

[Victim]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

 

 

Also consider that a character who is a doctor would logically have Paramedic, but probably also has stuff like SS: Anatomy, SS: Pharmacology, and SS: Medical Specialty (neurology, surgery, pediatrics, or whatever), each of which likely boosts the Paramedic roll. Would you go to a doctor that only had the basic familiarity with anatomy that Paramedic would provide? Of course not. The same is true for many professions.

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure an infinite proliferation of tiny sub-skills is a good way to promote skill purchases. The more you separate functions of science or knowledge skills, the less each one actually does. Thus those sorts of skills as a whole are less valuable, and the purchase of skills is discouraged (and skill heavy concepts).

 

I think that the perceived value of many skills is why players often avoid buying them. It's easy to get people to buy stuff like Stealth, Breakfall, and Acrobatics since those seem good. Do the 3 points for Pharmacology really match 3 points in Breakfall for value in most games? To use an example from another game: in first edition Mutants and Masterminds, I had players trying to justify having as few skills as possible (zero in some cases). Then we switched to the second edition, which both consolidated the skill list, and vastly increased the bonus per point used to buy skills. Suddenly there was no problem getting people to buy lots of skills. They became worthwhile purchases in their own right, rather than a tax imposed by the GM or by concept.

[Tech]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

I have a character who has:

 

Fam: Breakfall 8-

KS: Robotics 8-

KS: Electronics 8-

PS: Plumbing 8-

KS: Movie stars 12-

KS: Music stars 13-

 

and of course, the more common skills such as Acrobatics, etc etc.

 

I think some of the herogames posting here might consider these points wasted but these skills (among others) are a host of fun. Skills, like powers, can't be useful or not so useful - it depends on the GM's ability and the campaign style.

 

Maybe one day I'll go into the 5 minute game intro I had where this character was called on to fix an ordinary plumbing problem. Years later, I still smile and laugh a little.

[Peregrine]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

Having read this thread, I offer the following suggestions:

 

1. Make a list of the kind of skills you want the PCs to consider. KS, PS, SS, etc. Give them the list and tell them why.

 

2. Give them bonus points with which to buy skills from that list. That way, the desired "flavor text" skills are not a points sink that detract from the character builds the players are going for.

 

That way, you can make the skills useful or not without the players feeling like something was "taken away" from them, or that they got no game value for the points allocated to the skills. And you, the GM, get the 'fleshed out' PCs you want to see in your game.

 

That way, everybody gets what they want. Win-win.

[Thaingar]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

I really the idea of divorcing skills from stats! I think I'll start doing the skills in my campaign that way ... simply denoting them by how much they modify the attribute roll. Thanks!

[sbarron]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

That way' date=' everybody gets what they want. Win-win.[/quote']This kind of nonsense has no business on the internet. If you don't lose, I can't win!

 

[/sarcasm off]

 

Nice post!

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure an infinite proliferation of tiny sub-skills is a good way to promote skill purchases. The more you separate functions of science or knowledge skills, the less each one actually does. Thus those sorts of skills as a whole are less valuable, and the purchase of skills is discouraged (and skill heavy concepts).

 

I think that the perceived value of many skills is why players often avoid buying them. It's easy to get people to buy stuff like Stealth, Breakfall, and Acrobatics since those seem good. Do the 3 points for Pharmacology really match 3 points in Breakfall for value in most games? To use an example from another game: in first edition Mutants and Masterminds, I had players trying to justify having as few skills as possible (zero in some cases). Then we switched to the second edition, which both consolidated the skill list, and vastly increased the bonus per point used to buy skills. Suddenly there was no problem getting people to buy lots of skills. They became worthwhile purchases in their own right, rather than a tax imposed by the GM or by concept.

 

You are right in that 3 points for Breakfall is usually more useful than 3 points for Pharmacology, although, as previous posts have mentioned, it depends on how the GM runs the game. But that is exactly why you give Complimentary skill bonuses. If my players know they can buy Paramedic (definitely worth 3 points) up +1 for 2 points, or they can buy SS: Pharmacology which will give them the same effect in most cases for 3 points (or only 2 points if they have Scientist), it becomes a lot more worthwhile to take some of those "less valuable" skills. The characters become more well-rounded for nearly the same cost.

[BNakagawa]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

Although it creates a nightmare when it comes to moving characters from game to game, I think it is an interesting approach to alter skill costs from game to game.

 

I think BESM did something like that where the cost for a rank of a skill was determined by the game. So, in a dragonball style game, martial arts related skills were expensive and perform:musical instrument is cheap.

 

Then you could switch to a game set in another genre and suddenly the reverse is true.

 

By reducing the costs of skills that are there purely for color or character definition, you make it more palatable than if they were full cost. Skills that are critical to the genre are fine, even with a higher than normal cost because they are going to be used constantly.

[tesuji]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

Although it creates a nightmare when it comes to moving characters from game to game, I think it is an interesting approach to alter skill costs from game to game.

 

one aspect of this is the skill list in use in the campaign.

 

for example, in a typical supers game, compiters as s single skill is probably good for most computer related tasks, providing a reasonable scope for cost.

 

in a cyberpunk game, i would have several compiter related skills, not have everything to do with computers and the net and hacking be covered by one skill.

 

similarly, nuclear engineering would be one skill in many games, but for a game set on a ship powered by nuclear engines, there might need to be several skills or as you suggest, a difference in price between nuclear eng and swimming.

 

in a modern game set in a city, maybe pilot vs drive is right, but in a scifi bsg game set on the ship where to go nearly anywhere requires piloting, and ground vehicles are rarer, maybe pilot should cost more or ve several skills.

[Mike W]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

My references are all to "beginning of career" supers, as that seems to be the focus of discussion. By the mid to late '80s, Wasp had been around for 20+ years. She had spent some xp by then. No contacts, wealth or interaction skills seem evident in her 1960's appearances.

 

I do agree that a bored, disruptive player is no good, but that's a player issue more than a character build issue. A player who is only in the game for the combat isn't going to be excited by investigation, regardless of whether they have the skills to undertake it.

 

But I don't think it's always a player issue. Sometimes you get a cool idea for a character because you want to build it around a particular power or origin and then when you start crunching numbers you have a hard time rounding the character out.

 

And anymore, between the 350 starting point and the fact that characters tend to start out, both in games and in comics, tougher and more well rounded than they used to, I think requiring a few non-combat abilities out of a starting character isn't off base or unreasonable. Granted, when most characters make their first few appearances, you tend to see lots of flash(powers and combat stuff) and not much non-combat stuff like skills and perks, but that has more to do with "catching the reader's eye" than anything else, I think. Characters that hang around you usually see a lot of the other stuff before too long.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

And anymore' date=' between the 350 starting point and the fact that characters tend to start out, both in games and in comics, tougher and more well rounded than they used to, I think requiring a few non-combat abilities out of a starting character isn't off base or unreasonable. Granted, when most characters make their first few appearances, you tend to see lots of flash(powers and combat stuff) and not much non-combat stuff like skills and perks[/quote']

 

So they either don't have or don't use this stuff in their first appearances - ie as starting characters.

 

but that has more to do with "catching the reader's eye" than anything else' date=' I think. Characters that hang around you usually see a lot of the other stuff before too long.[/quote']

 

But then after they're arund for a few adventures and gain some xp, they spend it on rounding the character out with some noncombat skills and perks.

 

This is an area where RPG's and source literature separate. In the comics, few characters show a steady gain in power over their publishing career. They have the occasional major power up, but just as often a power down. They do, however, seem to pick up skills, perks, etc. over their careers. In RPG's. we tend to expect to gain experience and, with it, more power.

[Mentor]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

Our gaming group has been around for a long time so only new players need to be shown the benefits of skils. We do that mostly by making them useful in the campaign every chance we get. Finding creative means to make KS: Chess or KS: Alpine Skiing useful makes players happy they bought them.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

In my games, I allow players to have a certain amount of Background Skills for free. Not based on the idea that they'll never be used in the game, but based on the fact that "normal" 0-point people in the campaign would have some such skills. I assume that, in a modern setting for example, the average Joe walking around has a job and is reasonably competent at it. He has some body of knowledge. He has some level of education, which may even include an advanced degree. He may know a foreign language (or two). He probably has one or more hobbies about which he is quite knowledgable. He also knows his way around the city he lives in and most likely other areas as well.

 

Try writing up all the Background Skills you have in real life. There can easily be many points worth, even though you're a "normal".

 

So I allow a few such skills for free, with the following restrictions:

 

1. They must be written down on the character sheet.

2. They must be reasonable within the character's concept and other abilities. A 20- roll in SS: Nuclear Physics with only a 10 INT is NOT reasonable.

3. They must be "mundane" skills, accessible to "normal people" within the mileu. AK: Santa Fe is mundane. AK: Area 51 is not. In a fantasy campaign, KS: Horses is mundane; KS: Dragons is not.

4. The total point value of these free skills cannot exceed the character's INT. (I occasionally allow exceptions to this, but only by a few points.

5. And in case it wasn't clear, these must be Background Skills only.

[Peregrine]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

In my games, I allow players to have a certain amount of Background Skills for free. Not based on the idea that they'll never be used in the game, but based on the fact that "normal" 0-point people in the campaign would have some such skills. I assume that, in a modern setting for example, the average Joe walking around has a job and is reasonably competent at it. He has some body of knowledge. He has some level of education, which may even include an advanced degree. He may know a foreign language (or two). He probably has one or more hobbies about which he is quite knowledgable. He also knows his way around the city he lives in and most likely other areas as well.

 

Try writing up all the Background Skills you have in real life. There can easily be many points worth, even though you're a "normal".

 

So I allow a few such skills for free, with the following restrictions:

 

1. They must be written down on the character sheet.

2. They must be reasonable within the character's concept and other abilities. A 20- roll in SS: Nuclear Physics with only a 10 INT is NOT reasonable.

3. They must be "mundane" skills, accessible to "normal people" within the mileu. AK: Santa Fe is mundane. AK: Area 51 is not. In a fantasy campaign, KS: Horses is mundane; KS: Dragons is not.

4. The total point value of these free skills cannot exceed the character's INT. (I occasionally allow exceptions to this, but only by a few points.

5. And in case it wasn't clear, these must be Background Skills only.

 

Excellent implementation! Repped!

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

In my games, I allow players to have a certain amount of Background Skills for free. Not based on the idea that they'll never be used in the game, but based on the fact that "normal" 0-point people in the campaign would have some such skills. I assume that, in a modern setting for example, the average Joe walking around has a job and is reasonably competent at it. He has some body of knowledge. He has some level of education, which may even include an advanced degree. He may know a foreign language (or two). He probably has one or more hobbies about which he is quite knowledgable. He also knows his way around the city he lives in and most likely other areas as well.

 

Try writing up all the Background Skills you have in real life. There can easily be many points worth, even though you're a "normal".

 

So I allow a few such skills for free, with the following restrictions:

 

1. They must be written down on the character sheet.

2. They must be reasonable within the character's concept and other abilities. A 20- roll in SS: Nuclear Physics with only a 10 INT is NOT reasonable.

3. They must be "mundane" skills, accessible to "normal people" within the mileu. AK: Santa Fe is mundane. AK: Area 51 is not. In a fantasy campaign, KS: Horses is mundane; KS: Dragons is not.

4. The total point value of these free skills cannot exceed the character's INT. (I occasionally allow exceptions to this, but only by a few points.

5. And in case it wasn't clear, these must be Background Skills only.

Nicely done.

 

In our Champions campaign each character gets free, in addition to Everyman Skills:

 

1 PS 11-

1 PS: 8-

1 KS: 11-

1 KS: 8-

 

These are intended to represent job and/or hobby-related Skills. If the character wants to purchase the Skills at higher levels (say Characteristic-based) he must pay full price.

[casualplayer]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

This is an area where RPG's and source literature separate. In the comics' date=' few characters show a steady gain in power over their publishing career. They have the occasional major power up, but just as often a power down. They do, however, seem to pick up skills, perks, etc. over their careers. In RPG's. we tend to expect to gain experience and, with it, more power.[/quote']

 

Oh, I don't know about that. In the early days of the FF Ben could only lift 5 tons, Johnny could only Flame On! for about a minute, Sue could only turn invisible and Reed...well, actually Reed's powers haven't hardly changed at all but he sure has blown a lot of points on vehicles and stuff since then. Spider-Man could only lift about a ton when he started and he had mechanical webshooters then, of all things!

 

Chaotic creative teams definitely contribute to the wandering power levels, but the examples I used had fairly consistent creative teams throught their first 100 issues. As a result you got to almost watch them accrue and spend their xp.

[Narratio]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

Back at the original question - I agree with Mentor and PhilFleishmann. Most of my RPG's are with players who've either never RPG'd before or whose experiences at RPG has been in a basic hack-slash-runaway game.

 

For those, I start the game easy, telling them how skills would make certain situations easier but letting them do things in the game (search computer databases, apply first aid etc) that should really take skill rolls against knowledge.

 

After the first two or three sessions I then give the players a lump sum one time 20 XP's to let them buy skills or talents that they hadn't done before. I justify this as a sort of loss in virginity and the PC's suddenly realising how things fit together. Or, because they start a campaign with older, more experienced NPC's they are getting mentoring out of the game.

 

Gamenight 3 or 4 suddenly sees a flurry of activites as they try out the new found skills on anything and everything. By gamenight 5 or 6 They have a solid understanding of which they want thier characters to go and they use the slowly accruing XP's to fine tune thier characters.

 

It's a sort of fast track method of Bonsai, but for PC's, not miniature trees.

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

What I have gone to during my game (don't know who suggested this, but I would rep them for it) is the following:

 

1) I keep track of all the successful skill rolls the players make during a session.

 

2) At the end of the session I choose 3 skills they successful used

 

3) The player rolls against each skill starting with the highest skill roll first

 

4) The first skill roll they FAIL, their character gains a +1 to that skill roll

 

Example Johnny Adventure managed to sneak past soem guards (Stealth 13-), defeat the electronic lock system (Security Systems 11-) and defuse the bomb (Demolitions 8-). Johnny's player rolls against Stealth first (12 pass), Security Systems (12 fail) second so Johnny obtains a +1 to Security Systems.

 

This is based upon the old Chaoisum skill improvement rules. I find the players have demonstrated a marked increase in skill use (although not skill purchase yet). In addition, it is biased towards larger skills (to avoid 8- guy), emphasizes skills they already use and demonstrates the increased difficulty as you become more proficient with your skills. Any comments?

[pinecone]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

What I have gone to during my game (don't know who suggested this, but I would rep them for it) is the following:

 

1) I keep track of all the successful skill rolls the players make during a session.

 

2) At the end of the session I choose 3 skills they successful used

 

3) The player rolls against each skill starting with the highest skill roll first

 

4) The first skill roll they FAIL, their character gains a +1 to that skill roll

 

Example Johnny Adventure managed to sneak past soem guards (Stealth 13-), defeat the electronic lock system (Security Systems 11-) and defuse the bomb (Demolitions 8-). Johnny's player rolls against Stealth first (12 pass), Security Systems (12 fail) second so Johnny obtains a +1 to Security Systems.

 

This is based upon the old Chaoisum skill improvement rules. I find the players have demonstrated a marked increase in skill use (although not skill purchase yet). In addition, it is biased towards larger skills (to avoid 8- guy), emphasizes skills they already use and demonstrates the increased difficulty as you become more proficient with your skills. Any comments?

 

Looks cool, it certainly does what you want it to do...but your basicly giving up an extra EP or two a session...so overtime you'll end up with hyper skilled dudes...

[Maur]

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills

 

Our GM encourages it through the use of skills and skill complements. When you have 150+75 points to spend creating a character and don't pick up many powers you end up with a huge list of skills and complements.