Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

[Sweeper]

The last Superhero game I played (M&M), I was a Gadgeteering Adventurer called Techie. The Character concept was inspired by MacGyver, Scotty, Briana Diggers, and Agatha Hetrodyne. Techie's Powers where some gizmos that gave him flight, force field, blaster, gas mask, wi-fi hookup, and unreliable gravity control.

 

When we were in combat, the GM wouldn't let me jury rig on the fly to help defeat the baddies, (most of the time, a hive mind of robots no one is sure where they came from). Things that I could've done do help or at least hinder the robots, which came in rather large groups, the GM wouldn't let me do or at least attempt. The Jury-rigging rules in M&M back him up somewhat.

 

As a player, it was rather frustrating being hobbled like that while the rest of the party was off KATN.

 

As a GM, on the other hand, I know how bad such things can go if left unchecked.

 

So I put forth the question: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

[Victim]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

In combat jury-rigging in M&M is best served by uses of Extra Effort or Hero points, rather than the 'fast' version of inventing. Maybe you were using the wrong mechanic.

 

But a broad concept like tech expert can lead to a character that doesn't have much limits (like magic, or cosmic power). As you say, that can be problematic from the GM's PoV, and the other characters. If they have somewhat narrower concepts anyway.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Perhaps you need to sit down with the GM before the next game and discuss the kinds of things he will and won't allow and what you see your character being able to do. Realistically (as much as that term is applicable in superhero game) it should be pretty difficult to tinker with complicated machines while in combat. Without knowing your character build (Mechanic/Inventor 22- or powers with mechanic sfx?) it's hard to ascertain if he's being fair or not.

 

If you and the GM can't come to a meeting of the minds you may want to consider using a different PC.

[McCoy]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

So I put forth the question: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

The GM is always right.

 

Having encountered the robots once, why not have a robot-killer slot in the pool created between adventures?

[Comic]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

The GM is always right.

 

Which is why you have to know the GM's price.

 

Never accept a GM who can't be bought for a half bag of the oh-so-well-named Cheetos.

 

Well, unless the game's really good. In which case, the GM's always right.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

The GM is always right.

 

Which is why you have to know the GM's price.

 

Never accept a GM who can't be bought for a half bag of the oh-so-well-named Cheetos.

You play with some cheap GMs. Everyone dies if I don't get my own pizza.

 

 

 

 

AND half a bag of Cheetos.

[Comic]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Za is base salary.

 

Cheeselike corn snacks are commission.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Impossible to say without being there. And, you know, actually knowing anything about M&M (me being a HERO System GM and all )

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

GMs are not always right, but what the GM says goes.

 

Whether or not it was within the rules of M&M, I can't say, as I've never so much as picked up the book.

[Vestnik]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

The GM is always right.

 

Which is why you have to know the GM's price.

 

Never accept a GM who can't be bought for a half bag of the oh-so-well-named Cheetos.

 

Well, unless the game's really good. In which case, the GM's always right.

 

I recommend that the OP start dating the GM. Problems will soon be over.

[Pental]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

I'm not sure of the mechanics in M&M...when we've run characters in Hero system that have power pools, they've fallen into the following categories:

-mages who are entirely power pools (the player needs to have great understanding of point values, advans, disads, and be able to calculate them quickly - this has only been played once or twice in our group in the 15 years I've been playing with the GM)

-mages who have set spells (multipowers) and then 5 or 10 point power pools. The power pools can be changed mid-combat, but usually with a phase to change them (and with incanting, gestures, etc).

-and guys with arsenals.

Our guy Tom runs Corsair, a guy with an arsenal, who has a power pool but he has to state before combat what guns/devices he's taking into combat. I don't believe he can change anything on the fly.

 

However, half the fun of a MacGyver character should be that he can make what he needs in short order, when he needs it.

 

So, not understanding the mechanics of your game, if it was Champions, I'd ask for some defined powers (say Teckie has a phaser, a flight belt and a force field generator), and then a small power pool that you could utilize to come up with something helpful in combat on the fly. Maybe you have to carry a bag of 'stuff to build with'. Obviously defined as wire coat hangers, duct tape, rubber bands and some small transistors. Oh, and a coconut...is there anything the Professor couldn't make with a coconut?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

See, if this were HERO, I'd simply ask if you can be Radiation Accidented to a VPP with pre-built abilities (so you aren't building everything on the fly) and then when you need "some new thing" you make an Invention Roll against whatever the AP of the power is and BOOM, done. But you're playing M&M, a system with which I have zero experience.

 

To answer the question, "Was the GM right?" does, as KS already stated, require me to be there. I've seen "wrong" GM calls (those that don't make sense and/or go straight against the rules) but without being present, I can't say. (S)he may have simply been trying to preserve game balance and keep you from overshadowing the other characters. Some GMs, myself included, are very gunshy around JoAT characters, because they don't want other people's fun diminished by their possible ability to dominate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

My answer is a bit more subjective:

 

- does not allowing the character to modify his gadgets on the fly leave him significantly less powerful/effective than the other characters? If so, then I'd say the GM is wrong to prohibit jury rigging.

 

- does allowing the character to modify his gadgets on the fly leave him significantly more powerful/effective than the other characters? If so, then I'd say the GM is wrong to permit jury rigging.

 

In Hero [i can't speak for M&M - where's the big ape when you need him? ], the flexibility of changing powers on the fly comes with a cost, so the character has less points to spend on the powers themselves. If your "hard" gadgets leave you more or less at the same power level as the other characters without jury rigging, letting you also change them on the fly would, in my view, overpower your character. The added versatility of changing powers on the fly is, itself, a power which needs to be paid for.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

I'm not going into the M&M or Hero mechanics of a "jury-rig" pool, as I don't know M&M at all and it's immaterial what the answer would be in Hero. (Plus, others have covered that pretty well.) I'm going with a general gaming response.

 

Personally, as GM I can see why a fellow GM might not want the MacGuyver character to throw together a "quickie solution" to every problem. It's like a mage who can come up with any spell he can imagine -- why should anybody else have specific powers with this guy around to pull a fix out of his butt on the fly?

 

That said, to me it all comes down to everybody's enjoyment of the game, including the MacGuyver guy. There *should* be times where he can grab a kitchen magnet, two paperclips, and a 9-volt battery and make an impromptu micro-EMP grenade to take out a robot. Doing so should cost him numerous actions in combat, the jury-rig nature should give it a chance of failure, and the player shouldn't expect to try this all the time.

 

Just my $0.02 on the matter.

[Sweeper]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Personally' date=' as GM I can see why a fellow GM might not want the MacGuyver character to throw together a "quickie solution" to every problem. It's like a mage who can come up with any spell he can imagine -- why should anybody else have specific powers with this guy around to pull a fix out of his butt on the fly?[/quote']

 

Normally, I'd agree with you. But he did it 'every' freaking time. Which is why I got so frustrated with him.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

The last Superhero game I played (M&M), I was a Gadgeteering Adventurer called Techie. The Character concept was inspired by MacGyver, Scotty, Briana Diggers, and Agatha Hetrodyne. Techie's Powers where some gizmos that gave him flight, force field, blaster, gas mask, wi-fi hookup, and unreliable gravity control.

 

When we were in combat, the GM wouldn't let me jury rig on the fly to help defeat the baddies, (most of the time, a hive mind of robots no one is sure where they came from). Things that I could've done do help or at least hinder the robots, which came in rather large groups, the GM wouldn't let me do or at least attempt. The Jury-rigging rules in M&M back him up somewhat.

 

As a player, it was rather frustrating being hobbled like that while the rest of the party was off KATN.

 

You have flight, a FF, a blaster, and gravity control and you were "hobbled" because something else wouldn't work?

 

If your gadget-abilities allow quick changes/improv (like a HERO Gadget Pool that can be altered in combat) then you should be able to. If they don't, work up something in the lab between fights. If you don't have "on the fly" instant abilities, trying to rewire the tanning bed to a teleporter likely won't work in the time available.

 

If you want to do minor, mostly SFX type things taking advantage of the environment ("I break open the wiring. Next turn I hold action and if a robot gets near me I try to zap him." or "I hotwire the bulldozer, put a brick on the gas and aim it towards the villain.") I'd say some of it should work, with varying degrees of success.

 

But, as always with gaming, communication and shared expectations are key. We can't really help you - as others have said, you and the GM really need to hash this out and come to an understanding of the types of techie stuff you CAN pull in a combat.

[Balabanto]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

My answer to this question is based on another question, unfortunately.

 

How deadly were these encounters? Was everyone else pretty much running around kicking butt and taking names while you were a sideline project?

 

Or were you the only guy standing at that point while everyone else was hacking up blood at negative body and wobbling around the battlefield saying "Help...dying..."

 

If the answer to either of these questions is "Yes..." then your GM did you dirty, though for different reasons.

 

1) If he sidelined your character and made it weaker and less effective, then it wasn't fair to you vis a vis the others.

 

2) If you were the only guy standing and everyone else was basically about to die, it is a superhero game. He should have allowed you the ATTEMPT, and I stress this, the ATTEMPT, to jury rig something.

 

The flaw in this situation is that he outright said no. For mechanical stuff and asking the GM may I buy this power, I always feel free to say no. When a player asks me if they can take an action as their character, this is the correct response:

 

"You can try it."

 

I won't tell them what the chance is for success or failure, but that's not my business. A good GM always lets his players make the attempt, unless it's so obviously stupid that he has to use these words instead.

 

"Are you sure you want to take this action?"

 

If the PC says yes, then all bets are off.

[hfergus]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Normally' date=' I'd agree with you. But he did it 'every' freaking time. Which is why I got so frustrated with him.[/quote']

He might be concerned about setting a precedent. That said, gadget pools (altough I do'nt know about this system) can get real unbalanced very fast as others have said. See if you can work it our like others have said. In Heros, a skill roll can help keep down the abuse. I have a NPC with a big VPP, he can only change it between combats (4 hours). Even so, I have to be careful he does not do everything. Switch sides and you'll empasize, trust me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

I know nothing of M&M, but I do know something about game mastering. Generally, the GM is always right. Even still, it's well within a player's rights to simply disagree. It's up to you to decide how much that disagreement will affect your relationship with the GM though.

 

Bear in mind that something like changing/creating powers on the fly is a powerful ability. Some games take that into account and treat it as a power unto itself (such as the Hero System). Also keep in mind that many gadget type characters don't MacGuyver things "in combat". They do things out of combat, and in combat they can Jacky Chan things at best unless they simply stop fighting, go to 0 DCV (or M&M's equivalent) and use up many many actions taking something apart then rebuilding it (unless you've specifically taken this ability as a Power that can be done quicker).

 

That being said, if you did make your character to actually have the ability to jury-rig things in combat situations and the GM isn't letting you use it, it's no different then making your character with any other skill or power and being denied it. Talk to the GM to resolve it.

[Balabanto]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Just as a side note:

 

These are the 5 moments of "Are you sure?" I've enshrined forever.

 

5. Mike, I swing my monofilament Katana at the rocket.

 

4. I jump on the back of the Dragon Turtle.

 

3. I leave the base and take out the garbage.

 

Me: Did you put your clothes on?

 

Player: No.

 

2. I step over the ten foot wide pit.

 

1. I land on the Dragon's head.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Just as a side note:

 

These are the 5 moments of "Are you sure?" I've enshrined forever.

 

5. Mike, I swing my monofilament Katana at the rocket.

 

4. I jump on the back of the Dragon Turtle.

 

3. I leave the base and take out the garbage.

 

Me: Did you put your clothes on?

 

Player: No.

 

2. I step over the ten foot wide pit.

 

1. I land on the Dragon's head.

 

For my GM, the usual giveaway is not when he says "Are you sure you want to do this?", its when he asks for exacting details about what your trying to do. Generally, that means what you are about to do is. . . well, not necessarily *stupid*, but something with consequences.

 

( in my case, typically 'tear a hole in space/time" )

[input.jack]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Im familiar with both HERO and M&M.

 

Just so you know.

 

I agree that you may have been using the wrong mechanic to approach the problem. Extra Effort and Hero Points are, indeed, the way to go for that. If you were trying to use Invention to make new things in combat, it probably wouldnt have worked.

 

The invention system is rather slow, unless the character has Quickness relating to creation of gadget plans, or something of the sort. With Extra Effort you can Power stunt to "Alternate Powers", at the cost of either ibncurring a level of fatigue, or spending a Hero Point to avoid the fatigue. That limits the number of times a character is likely to use these "Alternate Powers" that arent on the sheet.

 

But the mechanic for allowing their use is one of the thigns that makes M&M work.

 

Therefore, in my opinion, your GM was wrong to simply say "no". A better way for the GM to go would have been to encourage you to use Hero Points and Extra Affort (like the rules say you should in exactly those situations), and then allowed you to try whatever you could come up with, so long as your Hero Points held out

 

To flatly deny you the option to jury rig (even as a special effect of Extra Effort to create a temporary Alternate Power) was to close off from you one of the key features that makes M&M a dynamic and interesting system.

[Tech]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Mind you, I'm taking this from the point of the Hero Games power since I don't know M&M too much. Now, I'm going to say some things like the others such as:

 

- I'm wasn't there so it's somewhat hard to make a call

- I don't know the GM

- I don't know the campaign

 

Having said that, I go against the grain and say I'm inclined to say the GM is excessively limiting your character. This is based on only hearing what you've said. If the GM knows the type of character you have and the way you want to play your character, and doesn't like it, he shouldn't have approved the character. By the fact you're playing the character says the GM approved your character with the powers and therefore there's a problem. Perhaps the GM is freaked out by power pools.

 

I've heard lots of post-ers here that are concerned about how there might be possible abuses of pools, to which I only half agree with, due to good personal experiences with said power pools. There are some monster players out there with a D&D type attitude and go crazy with power pools but you don't sound like that (at least I hope you're not ). Unfortunately, the number of times I hear 'there is a chance of abuse here of a power pool' far exceeds the number of times I've actually heard of the abuse of a power pool. Maybe I'm in the minority here but I've been GM with players with power pools and been a player with power pools - had no problems. Currently, I've got a character with a 40 pt Cosmic Power Pool (almong other powers) but no one has a problem with it. It all depends on the player; if the player is responsible with the points, then abuse will not occur.

 

If the GM is afraid of abuse of a power pool, please talk to the GM before the next game. It could be the GM doesn't understand what you want to do with the pool or maybe he's not an experienced GM. Again, I'm not there and can only make guesses as to his reasons. If the GM is adamant, you may need to either make a new character, play within the restrictions or consider if you want to play with this GM.

 

I hope things smooth out in your game.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

I penalize you for playing M&M. That is all. Candy should be eaten, not played with.

[McManus]

Re: Was the GM right or wrong in limiting my Gadgeteer?

 

Normally' date=' I'd agree with you. But he did it 'every' freaking time. Which is why I got so frustrated with him.[/quote']

 

 

In some ways that is a good thing. Because now you know what to expect from him in that situation. I would recommend that you talk with him before playing the character again and ask how, within the rules (or his interpretation of the rules) you can do the specific things you wnat to do. Then ask if you can redesign the character to do those things.

 

I have been in a situation where the GM's vision of my character was so different from mine that i did not want to play the character as the GM envisioned. I ended up changing to a different character. Othertimes I have been able to change the design of the character to get the effects I wanted in a way the GM would allow.

 

I wish you luck.