Change the focus from KO to Killing

[Opal]

Champions clearly has the focus of combat on knocking out opponents. Fantasy Hero, with generally lower defenses availabe in normal armor, certainly makes killing someone plausible, but knocking them out remains a perfectly viable option and is likely to happen pretty often.

 

How could you shift the focus more towards killing enemies as the default means of defeating them?

 

Anything's on the table. Campaign guidelines. Optional rules. Adding deleting or modifiying powers. Changing mechanics. Whatever. But, simple to implement and elegant is always preferable.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Champions clearly has the focus of combat on knocking out opponents. Fantasy Hero, with generally lower defenses availabe in normal armor, certainly makes killing someone plausible, but knocking them out remains a perfectly viable option and is likely to happen pretty often.

 

How could you shift the focus more towards killing enemies as the default means of defeating them?

 

Anything's on the table. Campaign guidelines. Optional rules. Adding deleting or modifiying powers. Changing mechanics. Whatever. But, simple to implement and elegant is always preferable.

 

Start turning on Optional combat rules around injury and damage. The lethality will go up commensurately.

 

Alternately if you don't want to fuss with rules you may not be familiar with, just control it by encouraging Deadly Blow, Martial Maneuvers with damage classes, NPA's on raw d6 of Killing damage as heroic abilities, etc while keeping defenses the same.

 

 

I've got several things on the fantasy section of my site that might help you.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.aspx

 

also, the MetaCyber setting I layout the options in place to make that setting pretty lethal in this document under "DAMAGE"; its directly translatable to any genre.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberDarkChampions.aspx

[Curufea]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

I've never really had a problem with this, as weapons by default are killing damage in Fantasy Hero - normal damage weapons are only common in the superhero genre.

[Opal]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Hit locations do help. You don't get a high stun multiplier without also getting a BOD multiplier with KAs. I'm sure other optional rules would tend in that direction, too.

 

Obviously, most weapons are KAs, but normal damage is certainly still out there. If you fall off a cliff, that's normal damage waiting for you at the bottom, for instance. If you're punched by a giant, or slapped by a monster's tail, that's presumably normal, too.

 

 

What I'm getting at is the way the system stand, you can beat on someone until thier dead or KO'd, either way is pretty effective, and leaves the foe defeated. What could you do to skew things so that killing is the more efficient option, and the KO is something you'd more often have to try for, specifically?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Use a gear list with very few normal damage options. That pretty much forces the issue.

[Comic]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Lower Body.

 

NPCs can start combats injured, due to ill treatment, harsh conditions, poor health.

 

NPCs can have lousy tactics due to ignorance, cultural biases, poor training, stupidity, superior tactics by PCs, cowardice and so forth.

 

NPCs can be under the influence of stimulants that do nothing to keep them alive or reduce their chances of being stunned, but that increase their Stun so they pretty much have to be killed to stop them, but they can be kept too punchy to act until they are dead.

 

Like that?

[Spence]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

If you use Hit Locations and Critical Hits from FH pg 159 the kill ratio jumps dramatically.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

You can also just kill foes that happened to be knocked out before dying, using the Coup de Grace rules from 5ER page 411.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

You can also just kill foes that happened to be knocked out before dying' date=' using the Coup de Grace rules from 5ER page 411.[/quote']

 

Which is horribly unheroic, Derek. I do go with the idea that "KO = Dead" while being CON STUNed will simply lose the baddie a phase (in which he often gets tac-nuked anyway). But no, my players aren't coup-de-grace happy because I make sure they don't need to be.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Champions clearly has the focus of combat on knocking out opponents. Fantasy Hero, with generally lower defenses availabe in normal armor, certainly makes killing someone plausible, but knocking them out remains a perfectly viable option and is likely to happen pretty often.

 

How could you shift the focus more towards killing enemies as the default means of defeating them?

 

Anything's on the table. Campaign guidelines. Optional rules. Adding deleting or modifiying powers. Changing mechanics. Whatever. But, simple to implement and elegant is always preferable.

 

Make sure the foes always get their recoveries, always recover from unconsciousness in a few Phases or next post-12, and make them killable. If players come to understand that the only to put an opponent out of the fight is to kill them, they'll do that.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Which is horribly unheroic' date=' Derek. I do go with the idea that "KO = Dead" while being CON STUNed will simply lose the baddie a phase (in which he often gets tac-nuked anyway). But no, my players aren't coup-de-grace happy because I make sure they don't need to be.[/quote']I wouldn't personally advocate this as a campaign style either. But it would help change the campaign focus from KO to killing, which is what it seems that Opal wants. Just offering a possible solution to the stated problem, even though I agree with you that it's not a problem.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Try flattening out the Stun Multiplier for Killing Attacks using the Standard Effect roll. BODY can be variable, but the Multiplier is a constant, so the "STUN Lotto" becomes less of a factor.

 

In some Heroic and Superheroic campaigns where Hit Locations aren't in use, I instituted an "Instant Kill" House Rule. If a character takes an amount of BODY damage, after subtracting Defenses, equal to his starting BODY score, from a single attack (including Coordinated attacks), the character may die immediately from the shock. For most supers games and more cinematic heroic games, I allow the character to make a Constitution roll to avoid this effect, but when you want greater lethality you can simply forego that roll.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Several small adjustments can make a Hero game quite deadly.

 

1: Use Hit Locations. These not only give a chance to do x2 Body damage, but in general it will even-out the Stun Lottery and make X2 or X3 stun multipliers much more common, reducing the 1-hit KO effect. A Head or Vitals hit (X2 body damage) can easily kill most creatures.

 

2: Use Impairing/Disabling rules. With these rules in place, enemies that take only 1/2 of their Body damage in 1 hit are effectively knocked out of the combat...The fights gone out of them. If they take their full body damage to an area of their body, they are effectively dead or nearly so. A disabling wound to the arm usually means its been severed or crushed beyond repair. Such damage to the chest, stomach, vitals or head region is instant death for anyone that isn't a PC (PC's should probably get a CON roll to see if they survive...a sort of System Shock roll)

 

3: Assume that unimportant NPC's die if they take an Impairing wound to their Head or Vitals region. If they take an Impairing wound to the chest or stomach, they might not be dead but they certainly aren't fighting anymore. This little rule tends to make combat against ruffians swift and deadly affairs.

 

4: Keep resistant Defense fairly low (2-6 is good. Anything higher than 8 res should be incredibly rare) and increase non-resistant defense a bit. This makes sure that opponents are taking body damage while being able to withstand a bit of Stun damage at the same time.

[Flute]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

I'm not that familiar with the mechanics, but in the fantasy setting our current game is run in, low-magic and poverty make for a fairly lethal combination that doesn't feel "forced", and also has a pretty gritty-realism.

 

When almost all the NPCs have no magical protection / powers, their resistances to magical damage players often have is "not good".

 

In many fantasy settings most people cannot afford decent armour, either. Hit locations, swords/blades/axes, and a significant lack of helmets does not end well if you get hit in the head.

[Tonio]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Has anybody tried ignoring STUN damage, except to determine Stunning? Means you simply can't KO anybody, you have to kill them to stop them.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Has anybody tried ignoring STUN damage' date=' except to determine Stunning? Means you simply can't KO anybody, you have to kill them to stop them.[/quote']

 

Yeah. But I gave it up right after Skills & Powers was released and started running HERO full time. I went back to it for a year or so to try out 3rd Edition, but it sucked past 12th level and I came back to HERO again.

 

 

 

 

Wait....what were we talking about?

[braincraft]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Lower defenses and use more Damage Reduction for toughness.

[Spence]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Which is horribly unheroic' date=' Derek. I do go with the idea that "KO = Dead" while being CON STUNed will simply lose the baddie a phase (in which he often gets tac-nuked anyway). But no, my players aren't coup-de-grace happy because I make sure they don't need to be.[/quote']

 

Not meant as a criticism, more as a question for clarification.

 

A “heroic” PC can pillage, burn, kill the whatsit and steal their treasure as long as they immediately kill them. But it is somehow “unheroic” to administer the coup’de’grace?

 

I am not following the logic. Doesn’t mean it isn’t there, just that I am not seeing it.

[Opal]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Has anybody tried ignoring STUN damage' date=' except to determine Stunning? [/quote']I'd never thought of that. That's the kind of out-of-the-box idea I was hoping to see!

 

Make sure the foes always get their recoveries' date=' always recover from unconsciousness in a few Phases or next post-12, and make them killable. [/quote']I suppose it would be pretty simple to change the rules on REC, say maybe that characters automatically take a REC on any phase they're unconsious (regardless of how unconscious they may be), and eliminate the 0 DCV for recovering in combat. With STN easily restored even in combat, killing becomes the prefered way to 'win' a fight. (Though, with concerted effort, you could still KO, then tie up, someone you really needed to capture). This would dovetail perfectly with Derek's CdG suggestion, as well.

 

Lower Body.

A simple and obvious solution. BOD starts at 5 instead of 10, say.

 

NPCs can be under the influence of stimulants that do nothing to keep them alive or reduce their chances of being stunned' date=' but that increase their Stun so they pretty much have to be killed to stop them.[/quote']I have pulled that trick in Champions, 'combat drugs' that grant extra stun or stun-only damage reduction, but do nothing to keep the subject alive. I'm looking for something more general, though.

 

 

Killer Shrike, NuSoardGraphite, (I remember you guys from Champs-l or a previous forum, no?), and Spence suggest using hit locations and other optional rules, and, yes, they do increase lethality. Lord Laiden had some similar suggestions about the Stun multiplier and an instant-kill rule. All good.

 

I'm now familiar with using the 'rep' feature.

 

They and others also suggested keeping resistant defenses low. That's easy enough in terms of normal equipment - make armor relatively low-DEF, and inconvenient. It's also simple to set a campaign cap on resistant DEF. But, defenses are still cheap, so anyone who cares to can hit the cap pretty easily. I've considered the possibility of making Force Wall the only buyable resistant-defense power. That way, an active point cap puts BOD inflicted by attacks on resistant defense about on par.

 

Any other thoughts on making resistan DEF more 'expensive?'

[runescience]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

First off, I had this same question for the board that you are posing. Ive been running the game with the above suggestions and that seems to work.

 

Ive also added a 'Mook' factor, that is, some baddies can only stand up to one or 2 hits. if the body/stun is significantly low vs armor, ignore it. But count it as a hit. Some critters cant take more than 2 hits that way.

 

Also, make sure you use Hitlocations.

 

It cuts down on the book keeping, and makes things go faster.

 

And thank you all for re-answering

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

Killer Shrike, NuSoardGraphite, (I remember you guys from Champs-l or a previous forum, no?), and Spence suggest using hit locations and other optional rules, and, yes, they do increase lethality. Lord Laiden had some similar suggestions about the Stun multiplier and an instant-kill rule. All good.

 

I've been around a long time now, but not all the way back to Champions I. I started using the HERO System in 1989 or 90 (I'd have to sit down and think it thru to recall which), and started REALLY using it (meaning for more than just superheroes) in 92ish. Had an early website for it starting in either late 94 or early 95 (again, im not good with years). Participated in various mailing lists and Haymaker. Was on the earlier forums, but not during the CyberGames era. Also let my website go during that time frame. Been back since 5th edition, and got the current site back up shortly thereafter. Its been a good run.

[Tonio]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

I've been around a long time now' date=' but not all the way back to Champions I. I started using the HERO System in 1989 or 90 (I'd have to sit down and think it thru to recall which), and started REALLY using it (meaning for more than just superheroes) in 92ish. Had an early website for it starting in either late 94 or early 95 (again, im not good with years). Participated in various mailing lists and Haymaker. Was on the earlier forums, but not during the CyberGames era. Also let my website go during that time frame. Been back since 5th edition, and got the current site back up shortly thereafter. Its been a good run.[/quote']

 

I believe he meant the champs-l mailing list hosted by sysabend, I believe. I used to visit that ages ago... Most funnest thing was reading Stainless Steel Rat's Happy Fun Ball sigs.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

I thought that the dropping STUN takes away an element of the game. You didn't say make KO impossible though. What you could do is rule that STUN = BODY damage for killing attacks. You would then have to expand the club weapon manouevre to allow the STUN multiplier to be increased.

 

You might also want to make armour take a beating so that it becomes less effective during the fight, broken bits and slipped buckles all lead to attacks getting through more often.

 

 

Doc

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

I believe he meant the champs-l mailing list hosted by sysabend' date=' I believe. I used to visit that ages ago... Most funnest thing was reading Stainless Steel Rat's Happy Fun Ball sigs. [/quote']

 

Ah. Well...I don't recall that mailing list specifically, but I was on a few mailing lists either actively or as a lurker, so its possible.

[Opal]

Re: Change the focus from KO to Killing

 

It was most likely the mailinng list, which I started reading through Red October, originally. And, yeah, ratinox was memorable. So was Vox Ludator. There were other very memorable posters, but thier names weren't quite so catchy... Killer Shrike stuck in my memory for some reason, though.