Lysando Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... This probably qualifies as "fools rushing in where angels fear to tread", but here goes... For me, disadvantages are a huge part of chargen. I think this is because I enjoy stories about people overcoming their limitations. It's not like I don't like other kinds of stories, but this kind of story appeals to me. And I think it appeals to alot of other people also. Early on, comic book writers discovered that just simply writing and reading about uber-competent characters taking out the monster of the week can get boring. There are many other interesting stories which revolve around other aspects of the characters such who they interact with, care about, etc. or what "personal demons" they are facing. So the challenge facing players who want to get beyond munchkin rollplaying is: how can I create characters who are interesting, not just for what they can do, but also because of what they are facing, who they are with, etc. Disads are an important part of that. So I have alot of respect for disads as tool to make characters that are more interesting to play. For GMs, disads are (among other things) where your players hand you a plaque with a bunch of hooks on which you can hang plot. The challenge for the GM, is how to weave the inherent stories in these hooks into your campaign. So I have alot of respect for disads as a tool to help GMs create games that are more interesting to play. I'm very thankful for the Master List of Disads. This is a huge tool. But I still think there is room for content that would give GMs and players advice,suggestions,guidance, etc. on how to use the tool that is Disads. There is just as much room there as there is for content on Skills and Powers, etc. So the question then becomes, if you agree with me so far that Disads deserve additional content, what kind of content? A full dead-tree Ultimate Disadvantage book? A series of articles in Digital Hero (oops, maybe not...but DH might have been the best place for it)? A shorter book, published only in PDF? Fan-created content on the Web? lysando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catseye Posted February 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... This probably qualifies as "fools rushing in where angels fear to tread", but here goes... For me, disadvantages are a huge part of chargen. I think this is because I enjoy stories about people overcoming their limitations. It's not like I don't like other kinds of stories, but this kind of story appeals to me. And I think it appeals to alot of other people also. Our abilities tell us what we can do, Our limitations tell us who we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... As Archermoo points out, I'm from the East, notably New England. Where insults are often greetings. I will say I have no problem with GM input, even up to insisting on changes. In fact I like it, and encourage the GM to make my character fit his idea of the world as I want to mold the Game to my idea of how to play the Character. But let a GM make one for me? not gonna happen. That's how I learned the rules... making and playing Characters. I don't go all the way back to '81, just '95ish. But if I didn't take the plunge and do it I wouldn't know half the truly awesome stuff this system can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catseye Posted February 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... As Archermoo points out, I'm from the East, notably New England. Where insults are often greetings. Really? Who the heck do you play with? I'm in north Boston now and I'm literally seeding HERO play from scratch, not that I entirely mind as per above. Not sure I understand that last statement, btw. In my part of NE people are very polite... distant.. but polite. (Except when they drive but thats a whole different thing.) I nearly dropped my package my first week here when a 13 yr old bumped into me in the mall, turned around, and said "excuse me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... Really? Who the heck do you play with? I'm in north Boston now and I'm literally seeding HERO play from scratch, not that I entirely mind as per above. Not sure I understand that last statement, btw. In my part of NE people are very polite... distant.. but polite. (Except when they drive but thats a whole different thing.) I nearly dropped my package my first week here when a 13 yr old bumped into me in the mall, turned around, and said "excuse me." I'm currently living in Denver. Sorry. When you're out there you don't notice it. And often enough it's a turn of the voice, or the way something is phrased. Short, to the point, almost brusque. Sure, we say Excuse Me and even mean it, but some how out here the *way* we say Excuse Me is usually taken as "Why are you still standing there, get the f- outta here ya bum." It wasn't until I moved to Southern Cal and then Denver that I noticed things I said that I didn't think were insults people took offense to. Part of it is the accent (mind, I'm from Rhode Island which has a completely different accent than Boston, but all NE/NY/NJ accents share common traits). /derail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catseye Posted February 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... What I notice is the cool distance. People are nice enough, but this place is called new England for a reason. People here would die rather then show you what they are really feeling. Its a lot like the Midwest where I lived for highschool and college. Cali is the opposite. Its sort of like the NYC openness Iw as born to but with a layer of smiles on top of it. You know how you say "fuck you" in Califronia? "Thank you for sharing." You know how you say "fuck you" in NYC? "Trust me," You know how you say "fuck you" in the midwest? "well, isn't that nice." I havent quite figured it out in New English yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... As for #1... I really want an offline reference. Has anyone made that site into a PDF? I'm not aware of an extant one (although I may poke around some possible locations), but our board colleague Edsel did convert the list into Hero Designer prefabs: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51300 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... I've been having a screwy time with my Internet connection this afternoon and evening, so I'll just make a couple of remarks: First, the book Derek describes definitely should be written, but independent of any game mechanics (including HERO). Write it and sell it at lulu.com or some similar venue -- it'll be worth it. Second, while The Ultimate Disadvantage would certainly include plenty of sample Disadvantages, it wouldn't be worth the effort if that's all it was. The online Master Lists are a wonderful resource, but we really need oh-so-much more. Third, Lucius and Lysando pretty much express my point of view on this. From the first, we have so much to describe what our characters can do; what about the stuff that really makes them tick, what the universe does to them, and all that? And a nitpick: a Vulnerability versus puns would be invalid. Puns do no damage in themselves, so a character could not be Vulnerable to them. (There might be a character whose Special Effect is really bad puns, but the Vulnerability still would be no more valid than a Vulnerability against "Grond's punches.") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... And a nitpick: a Vulnerability versus puns would be invalid. Puns do no damage in themselves' date=' so a character could not be Vulnerable to them. (There might be a character whose Special Effect is really bad puns, but the Vulnerability still would be no more valid than a Vulnerability against "Grond's punches.")[/quote'] Well, consider Vulnerability is a Multiplier to Effect (5ER p341 right column covers this) - not just Damage. If you build your Puns such: So Bad It Hurts: EB I'm Laughing So Hard It Hurts: Entangle I Laughed So Hard I Cried: Flash-Sight Group I Don't Get It: Drain-INT/EGO Then a Vulnerability to them is absolutely valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... And a nitpick: a Vulnerability versus puns would be invalid. Puns do no damage in themselves' date=' so a character could not be Vulnerable to them. (There might be a character whose Special Effect is really bad puns, but the Vulnerability still would be no more valid than a Vulnerability against "Grond's punches.")[/quote'] I don't see how having a Vulnerability against the Special Effect of Puns is invalid, and for that matter if a Presence Attack (no Powers necessary) included a Pun the character might very well take more effect from it than other people. It's just a matter of deciding how common Puns will be a form of attack in the game. I don't see why if my character shares origin with Grond, is hunted by Grond, and takes extra damage from Grond's punches because of the specific radiation being eminated from his skin I should not be allowed a Vulnerability to his punches. So, maybe a book that went over Disadvantages would be helpful to me, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... The Ultimate Disadvantage is worth over a hundred points. Who wants to see it? Lucius Alexander The Palindromedary is looking pointedly at Lucius Alexander as if to suggest that Lucius Alexander himself is the Ultimate Disadvantage, at least as far as the Palindromedary Character Sheet is concerned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... I've generally found that letting people make their own characters with as much or as little help from me as they want has always been a pretty good hook to get them interested in the system. It's a fun way to spend three hours. If you have three hours, that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... And a nitpick: a Vulnerability versus puns would be invalid. Puns do no damage in themselves, so a character could not be Vulnerable to them. (There might be a character whose Special Effect is really bad puns, but the Vulnerability still would be no more valid than a Vulnerability against "Grond's punches.") I feel like I'm almost restarting my post, but... Some puns do damage in themselves. And in many campaigns, a nasty pun could be a PRE attack, which is a perfectly valid thing to be Vulnerable to. Saying "There are no pun attacks in my campaign" is no different at all than saying, "There are no laser attacks in my Fantasy Hero campaign." A character can have a Vulnerability to attacks that do not do literal "damage"--like continuing effect Mental Powers, Flashes, and Presence Attacks. So I have no idea why you feel my example is invalid. By the rules it appears to be acceptable, and I do not see any rule or suggestion that would imply otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... I don't see how having a Vulnerability against the Special Effect of Puns is invalid, and for that matter if a Presence Attack (no Powers necessary) included a Pun the character might very well take more effect from it than other people. It's just a matter of deciding how common Puns will be a form of attack in the game. I don't see why if my character shares origin with Grond, is hunted by Grond, and takes extra damage from Grond's punches because of the specific radiation being eminated from his skin I should not be allowed a Vulnerability to his punches. I would say these are disadvantages. The question then falls to the GM to determine whether these types of attacks are sufficiently frequent to be worth any points as disadvantages. If they are not sufficiently common to even classify as "rare", then they are 0 point disadvantages, just like "Not vs Grond" may be so infrequent as to be a -0 limitation on your Energy Blast. IOW, I agree with those arguing that the nature of the campaign determines the legitimacy and value of the proposed disadvantages. In a "no killing" Saturday morning cartoon game, Vulnerability to killing attacks might be worth nothing because they are so rare as to be nonexistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... It's a fun way to spend three hours. If you have three hours' date=' that is. [/quote'] Without chargen software a character for a new player generally doesn't take more than 45 minutes or an hour. With chargen software, 15-20 minutes is generally more than enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catseye Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... For those with up to date experience yes. I actually found it a challenge even using HD coming back to it after all these years. A LOT of time spent looking the details of things up in rules. Many thanks to Dan for putting page references in the descriptions. Without those I might still be at it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... It's not the nuts and bolts that slows down chargen with new players. It's usually one of two things: "I want to try everything on the menu!" "Can this do X?" (Yes, yes it can, but do you want it to?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... It's not the nuts and bolts that slows down chargen with new players. It's usually one of two things: "I want to try everything on the menu!" "Can this do X?" (Yes, yes it can, but do you want it to?) Pretty much. I find it is in the approach. Most games consist of a player rolling/assigning a few items and then picking from pre-defined lists. So looking at the list before creating a character makes sense. But in Hero the lists are not pre-defined end products, they are the pieces used to build the list. Looking at the rule book before defining character concept is one of the worse things that can happen for a new player. If they do they get lost in the possibilities. My preferred method is to write up the character concept and his/her powers before I ever even crack the book. Once I have defined and named all of the powers, then I point them out. IME this seems to also help new to Hero players grasp the entire reasoning from effect concept faster. At least it seems like it to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catseye Posted February 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... I think the sheer size of the rule makes it slower, at least for me. It used to be (back in the second edition days) there there were a pretty small handful of powers to know and then it was just "get creative with adv/lim." A lot more is cannonzied now, so that means there is a lot more cannon you need to reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonio Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... Chargen is usually takes days with us, hehe. We swap .hdc files via email back and forth, tweaking and commenting on each others' sheets, until we're happy with the result. Each iteration usually takes between 10 minutes and an hour, depending on how big a change it is. But then, character generation is over half the fun for us. I think we'd be OK with not playing, just making characters up. It's just sometimes fun to see what the character you just wrote up can do, hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bygoneyrs Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... So what does Steve L have to say about all this now? Penn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxiMan Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... A dictionary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... Chargen is usually takes days with us, hehe. We swap .hdc files via email back and forth, tweaking and commenting on each others' sheets, until we're happy with the result. Each iteration usually takes between 10 minutes and an hour, depending on how big a change it is. But then, character generation is over half the fun for us. I think we'd be OK with not playing, just making characters up. It's just sometimes fun to see what the character you just wrote up can do, hehe. I can't get first drafts from my group in less than a week; we're all experienced Hero players (4 of us 20+ years, 3 of us ~10+) and most of us have the HeroDesigner software (I think I may have been the last holdout clinging desperately to my lovingly crafted excel templates). With us there's definately an element of 'Look how I did this!' involved so I suspect several of us take more time than really is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... I can't get first drafts from my group in less than a week; we're all experienced Hero players (4 of us 20+ years' date=' 3 of us ~10+) and most of us have the HeroDesigner software (I think I may have been the last holdout clinging desperately to my lovingly crafted excel templates). With us there's definately an element of 'Look how I did this!' involved so I suspect several of us take more time than really is needed.[/quote'] Oh I can take a huge amount of time lovingly crafting a character. But then again, I could do that with the Basic D&D set. But I can also knock out a fairly straightforward, decently built character in under 10 minutes if I want. Crank that up to 15, maybe 20 if I don't have access to HD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silbeg Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Re: The book I want more then any other.... I don't know if you've seen this site, Thia, but it's got enough content on disads to make a full sourcebook. http://web.archive.org/web/20060517071957/www.globalguardians.com/masterlists/masterlistindex.php EDIT: Sorry, that should have been addressed to Catseye. My bad. To be clear, the "Master Lists" have been moved over time (in fact, I got an error when I followed that link). The current home appears to be: http://lostcoastgaming.com/files/masterlists.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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