Biggest Brains in DC

[McManus]

I am putting together a JLU Chronicles game for my sons. As I was researching the characters I came across the claim that Mr. Terrific (Michael Holt) was the "third smartest man in the world". Immediately I started wondering who the first two were.

 

I have often seen lists of the strongest or best martial artist in the DCU. I am curious who people would put in the top 5 or 10 smartest, and in what order.

 

So ... Who are the biggest brains in DC?

[Psybolt]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

I don not know the DC Universe very well. I am much more familiar with Marvel. But a couple of villains spring to mind immediately. That being T.O. Morrow and Lex Luthor. Mr. Freeze was a scientist too, wasn't he? Batman is very smart, though maybe not on the list.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Lex Luthor has certainly been a scientific genius in past incarnations, and more recently a financial genius. Captain Comet is supposed to be the pinnacle of human mental evolution. Certainly Grodd and Hector Hammond have to be well up there, as well as various incarnations of Brainiac.

 

Unfortunately, DC over the past decade has experienced a severe bout of "retcon-itis," with the history of its characters revising so frequently that it's hard to keep track of which versions are current.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Darkseid is easily in the "super-genius" category. So is Bruce Wayne. Desaad routinely rewrites the laws of physics with his feindish devices.

 

Dr. Fate an the Spectre reach near-omnipotence at times.

 

Ted Kord was in Batman's league (literally..) he just didn't get credit for his brilliance. The Joker *has* to be smart, just to keep up with Bats.

 

The Riddler is frightening when you think about the way his mind works. If only he didn't have that crippling Psych Lim. (Remember, Riddler figured out Batman's Identity, and can't bring himself to reveal the solution to Gotham's Greatest Riddle).

 

Superman is pretty smart and clever too. At times during the Silver Age, his scientific genius was on par with his physical might.

 

Barry Allen and Ray Palmer are (were) both on the high-end of scientific Genius.

 

The Question is also pretty durn smart.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Well, Brainiac, Darkseid, and Dessaad are out because they are not "men in the world." One's an AI, the other two are gods, and all are aliens. So, let's see... LexLuthor springs to mind, as does the Riddler. Batman, without a doubt. The Calculator. T.O. Morrow and Prof. Ivo, especially when they work together. Will Magnus is at least a genius in robotics. John Henry Irons (Steel) built a fully-functional suit of power armor in his basement. Kitty Faulkner of S.T.A.R. Labs. Rip Hunter, the world's first crononaut, built all his own equipment. Wow, the DCU is full of mega-geniuses! Oh, and Bart Allen has to be pretty knowledgable after reading and memorizing the entire San Francisco public library.

[csyphrett]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

The Chief from the Original Doom Patrol springs to mind. A lot of the heroes from the forties were smart in their fields like the GA Robotman. I agree about Luthor. Doc Klyburn from STAR labs is another example.

CES

[Shaft]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

I suspect the ranking is deliberately vague. Does a guy like the Spectre rate in the world or the universe? Does Darkseid count, given that he's from Apocalypse. What about Brainiac V? Is he an extra terrestrial? Does he count as a man? Is man in this case limited to humans, or all residents of Earth? What about Brainiac XIII? Does time travel make him a factor? Is Luthor smarter than Mr Terrific? Is Batman or Martian Manhunter? How do you even rate intelligence? Does tactical intelligence count, or only scientific intelligence? Does the list only include living people? What about the abstract reasoning needed to learn magic? Does that count?

 

Not to mention, a villain's brains is related to how the writer wants him to be written for a storyarc. That may change when the writer changes.

 

All this to say, a lot of this is going to be a case of opinion.

 

Terminator should be on the list. Also, the Brain- if a disembodied brain counts. Oracle strikes me as "up there" too (plus there should be at least one woman on the top ten list, if not more). I'd put Batman on the list because at worst, when a complicated concept comes up, he's at least the second smartest guy in the room.

 

Would John Constantine make the list? He constantly outwits the Lords of Hell.

 

Brother Blood?

 

Wow. I think I'm going to stop now...

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Not mentioned: The Ultra Humanite is near the top of the list.

 

One of my favorite bits in 52 revealed just how many mad scientists there are in DC mythos. Now, not all of them of deserving of a top spot, but if T.O. Morrow and Ivo are being considered, then we must include Dr. Sivana on the list, too.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Well, speaking of Sivanna, how can we forget the Marvels, all with the wisdom of Solomon? And for that matter, Wonder Woman has the wisdom of Athena. But do they count, since wisdom and intelligence are often two different things?

[Darren Watts]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Gotta be Batman and Luthor. After all, Mr. Terrific is thrilled when he learns Batman swiped his designs for the T-Spheres, because he "thought they were worth stealing." There may be plenty of people who can outclass either in a specific field, but nobody has the breadth those two have. dw

[mattingly]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Well, according to the Can of Whupass mythos, the smartest member of the Justice League is not Batman, but the wheelchair-bound Professor Stephen J Hawkman.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

 

Who?

[SKJAM!]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Up and down, but I.Q. (Ira Quimby) has the ability to make himself smarter by absorbing sunlight through his skin. Amazingly, it took until 52 before he thought of stripping to Speedos on a tropical island to take advantage of this.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Up and down' date=' but I.Q. (Ira Quimby) has the ability to make himself smarter by absorbing sunlight through his skin. Amazingly, it took until 52 before he thought of stripping to Speedos on a tropical island to take advantage of this.[/quote']You know what they say, there's a big difference between intelligent and smart.

[McManus]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

So …

 

List of Top Intellects (as defined by depth and breadth of knowledge, number of fields of expertise, creativity/inventiveness across several fields, and just plain know-it-all-ness)

 

1) Batman…because he’s the Batman

2) Lex Luthor … only the smartest could give Superman and the JLA a run for their money

3) Mr. Terrific …going with canon

4) Ultra-Humanite

5) Grodd

6) Dr. Silvania

7) Calculator and Oracle ???

8) ???

9) ???

10) ???

 

Lots of folks mentioned seem to be geniuses but confined to one or two fields: The Calculator and Oracle might well belong in the supergenius/polymath group, or they might just be really good at research/information retrieval and management. Will Magnus, T.O. Morrow, and Prof. Ivo are robotics geniuses but not necessarily other fields. Ted Knight and Ray Palmer are physicists. Steel and Gizmo are engineer/gadgeteers. Dr. Fate and Jason Blood are occultists. Dr. Mid-nite is a physician. Rex Taylor and Barry Allen were chemists. I am not sure where Riddler and Joker should go. Both are certainly intelligent but are they super geniuses?

 

I am leaving Braniac, the New Gods, and the Guardians out as aliens. Specter and Phantom Stranger are out as mystic beings. Captain Marvel I do not know what to do with. He (and Wonder Woman when her origin included the powers of the gods…not sure it still does) should be super smart, but they seldom if ever show it.

 

So who else makes the list?

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

This is exactly the kind of thing I geek out about, so pardon me while I geek out a bit.

 

While it is one thing to compare physical characteristics such as strength or durability, intelligence is very difficult to define. Everyone has a different characterization of 'smartest' and trying to find a universally accepted definition is nigh impossible. Therefore, if one is going to assemble a superlative list one has to define the criteria. The aspects of intelligence I am considering the most are: range of knowledge (breadth and depth), comprehension, calculation/analysis, creativity and strategic aptitude. Each of are also open to debate, of course, but I think that they're generally accepted enough to get started. Super intelligence is most often portrayed as scientific engineering, but I want to acknowledge that the smartest people on the planet are not necessarily scientists.

 

Ok, here are the rules I used in compiling the list. These were instituted in order to better reflect what I feel is the intention of the original question. The DC Universe comprises multiple dimensions, deities, hyper advanced alien civilizations and near gods in a plethora of timelines. If we include everyone, then this list gets really weird, and frankly Mr. Terrific doesn't make the cut. We really want to consider modern, mainstream DCU. Therefore, the rules:

 

1) Earth based / Earth bound characters only. It makes sense to stick to the most common location. This eliminates super intelligent alien races such as The Guardians or the Coluans. I'm counting Brainiac here as well.

2) Late 20th Century, Early 21st Century. The world of the LoSH is a completely different civilization and hardly bears a fair comparison. Excluding Brainiac 5 and Rip Hunter.

3) No otherworldly beings. No human can compare to characters like Metron or Lucifer who blow the curve apart. This eliminates various gods and demons.

4) No alternate universe characters. While they wouldn't necessarily disrupt the curve, there are simply too many to consider and we do want to stick to modern mainstream DCU. Therefore Doc Savage and Ozymandias are off of the list.

5) No gimmick geniuses. There are a great number of geniuses in DCU, but some of them stalled after they found their niche. The Mad Hatter created a freaking mind control device! Who knows what he could have achieved if he had continued and expanded? Likewise Captain Cold, Sonar, and many, many more.

6) Appearances. The character has to have appeared a respectable amount of times. For example, The Folded Man, Edwin Gauss, was hailed as America’s greatest genius since Mr. Terrific, and succeeded in completing Einstein’s Unified Field Theory. However, he is too minor a character to have any notable impact.

 

 

That being said, here is my Top Twelve list.

 

1) Lex Luthor. A very hard decision, but slight edge to Lex. His raw intelligence is possibly the greatest mankind has ever seen. Driven by megalomania and unhindered by ethical constraints, Lex has achieved a level of mastery in politics, business, philosophy, and multiple sciences.

2) Bruce Wayne/Batman. His greatest intellectual advantage is his raw willpower, his ability to push himself to be better and smarter every day. He is the ultimate self made man.

3) Mr. Terrific. I'll give him the third spot because that's his schtick. He certainly seems to be living up to the billing.

4) Gorilla Grodd. I think Wikipedia says it best: "Gorilla Grodd is a hyper-intelligent telepathic gorilla." The sheer cool factor in that sentence is off the scale! The JLU did a marvelous job of portraying Grodd as a mastermind to rival Luthor.

5) Ray Palmer/The Atom. The premiere hero scientist in the DCU, he should be given a lot more credit than he actually gets. Not only did he create his shrinking technology he has mastered nanotechnology and other sciences. Additionally, he has the intellect and willpower to comprehend the microscopic/subatomic world. One of my favorite lines when he brings others with him: "You think that's air you're breathing?"

6) The Riddler/Edward Nashton (nee Nigma). He is the Batman's greatest intellectual threat. It takes something very special to be an intelligence based villain that is not based upon gadgetry. An alternate world version of The Riddler is officially the smartest man in the world.

7) The Ultra Humanite. He was Lex Luthor before Lex Luthor. A mad scientist with a penchant for brain transplants, he eventually bred a mutated albino gorilla just to hold his gigantic brain.

8) Doctor Thaddeus Bodog Sivana. (Bodog??) The mad scientist's mad scientist. He is a brilliant scientist and inventor, and possibly an even greater manipulator and strategist.

9) The Flash/Barry Allen. Underrated as a scientist, Barry was CSI before CSI was cool. He didn't invent his powers like The Atom did, but absolutely nobody had the creativity in using their powers that he possessed. He virtually created a new science unto himself in hyper-kinetics. Oh, and did I mention he built a friggin' time machine??

10) Vandal Savage. A genius level intellect sharply honed by 52 millennia of experience in virtually every human endeavor.

11) Oracle/Barbara Gordon. Not to sound nasty, but being paralyzed was the best thing that ever happened to Babs as a character. As Oracle her intelligence really shines through. Photographic memory, expert hacker, super genius, librarian, and redhead. What else could you want?

12) The Calculator/Noah Kuttler. Originally a total joke of a character, the Calculator experienced a similar rebirth to Oracle when he decided to model his new career as evil information broker after Barbara's. His ruthless cunning and cleverness has really come to the forefront now. Oracle gets the slight nod because she came first and she's not hindered by some of Noah's psychological disadvantages.

[LoresLost]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Sir Log,

If Barry Allen is on the list for a time machine (and power use) then why not T.O. Morrow for his time viewer. Then you have the DCUs Cybernetic Genius, the bipolar but never surpassed Doc. Magus (and Morrow's most gifted student, he even had a wave motion gun and mini metal men at the end of 52). John Henry Irons, The Master Weaponsmith DCU.

Deathstroke the Terminator was a normal man before he got his supersoldier serum and now has all abilities amped to the nth degree, including intelligence.

 

AND for truly the biggest human mind in the 20/21st century is Hector Hammond. (not the most intelligent just the biggest)

[JmOz]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

I seriously think we need to consider Tim Drake in the top 100 as well, probably not top 10, but able to figure out who Bats is by watching TV is impressive, for that matter DC's Anarchy is probably in that 100 as well

[JmOz]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Gotta be Batman and Luthor. After all' date=' Mr. Terrific is thrilled when he learns Batman swiped his designs for the T-Spheres, because he "thought they were worth stealing." There may be plenty of people who can outclass either in a specific field, but nobody has the breadth those two have. dw[/quote']

 

Luthor gets alot of creds, and he is definatly one of the top 100, probablly top 10, but after the Crisis reboot I question if he is deserving to be in the top 5...just saying...

[ZootSoot]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

I am putting together a JLU Chronicles game for my sons. As I was researching the characters I came across the claim that Mr. Terrific (Michael Holt) was the "third smartest man in the world". Immediately I started wondering who the first two were.

 

I have often seen lists of the strongest or best martial artist in the DCU. I am curious who people would put in the top 5 or 10 smartest, and in what order.

 

So ... Who are the biggest brains in DC?

 

Both Marvel and Dc have this idiocy going for them, it's currently worse in Marvel where we have a character who is considered the seventh smartest person in the world. Unfortunately intelligence does not scale clearly the way strength does. Batman is the world's greatest detective but is he smarter than John Henry Irons? Ray Palmer? Lex Luthor? Is science Luthor smarter than business Luthor? And, again, in Marvel it's worse where high intelligence is at least as common as super speed is in DC. Saying that michael Holt is the world's third smartest person is proof that the world's third smartest person does not work as an editor for DC.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Sir Log,

If Barry Allen is on the list for a time machine (and power use) then why not T.O. Morrow for his time viewer. Then you have the DCUs Cybernetic Genius, the bipolar but never surpassed Doc. Magus (and Morrow's most gifted student, he even had a wave motion gun and mini metal men at the end of 52). John Henry Irons, The Master Weaponsmith DCU.

Deathstroke the Terminator was a normal man before he got his supersoldier serum and now has all abilities amped to the nth degree, including intelligence.

 

Excellent questions, LL. Here are more of my thoughts: First, I'm not saying that those not on the list aren't smart. Morrow, Magnus and Irons all made my tier 2: honorable mention list. And I did truly struggle with a lot of these. I'll address them individually, though.

 

Barry Allen: There's a lot more there than what I mentioned. Interestingly enough I threw in the time machine simply to counter the nay-sayers that might point out he wasn't much of an inventor. He was an innovator, though. Like Palmer he understood physics on a level that only those who subsist in another mode of existence can really comprehend. Even Jay and Wally cannot understand the world in the way that Barry does. Jay's a soldier, Wally's a warrior, Barry's a scientist. (Wally still hasn't figured out all of Barry's tricks.) He applies the scientific method to most everything he does. He rarely overpowered foes; he outsmarted them, usually by attempting something that had never been done before. "If I accelerate the molecules just right…" Additionally, as was mentioned earlier in the thread in reference to Bart Allen, Barry has read entire libraries. (As an ironic side note, Wally is generally considered by many to be one of the dumbest characters in the DCU. Unfair billing in my estimation.)

 

T.O. Morrow: While he's a brilliant inventor, he also freely admits that he many of his designs and ideas from his visions of the future. He almost made the list, but when I had to start making hard choices I felt Morrow lacked in the creativity department. As a villain he was usually defeated, ironically, due to his lack of foresight.

 

Professor Ivo was eliminated for very similar reasons. Ivo was his own worst enemy. The immortality serum backfired horribly, for example. He relied on the raw power of Amazo with little strategy behind it.

 

Dr. Will Magnus: This was a very tough cut. In the end, when I had to find reasons to make cuts it came down to his nearly singular focus. Brilliant chemist, foremost authority on robotics, amazingly blind in understanding his fellow human beings.

 

John Henry Irons: Honestly, this was just a gut call. I had to look at the list and ask who I would remove for him, and I just didn't want to lose anyone.

 

Deathstroke: I left him off because I've never seen anything from him that suggests he's on this level. He may be defined that way, and he is admittedly a brilliant strategist, I just don't see it on the super genius level.

 

I should post my tier 2 list. They're not in order, just presented as a group.

1. T.O. Morrow

2. Professor Ivo

3. Dr. Will Magnus

4. John Henry Irons/Steel

5. Ira Quimby/I.Q.

6. Oswald Cobblepot/The Penguin

7. The Joker

8. Hector Hammond

9. Vic Sage/The Question

10. Winslow Schott/The Toyman

11. Professor Emil Hamilton

12. Niles Caulder/The Chief

 

AND for truly the biggest human mind in the 20/21st century is Hector Hammond. (not the most intelligent just the biggest)

[freakboy6117]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Hmm interesting question, I think it kind of depends if we are talking the superhero world or the general public.

 

After all Batman’s genius isn’t well known outside superhero/villain circles. He may be the world’s greatest detective but how many members of the public know that? “where does he get all these wonderful toys?” Is a question anyone who believes in his existence might be asking?

 

I’m sure there are plenty of people that believe that the batman is in reality elite covert government anti-crime unit or an urban myth made up by Gotham PD (with a few cops in costume to make it real) or whatever.

 

If it was for say a magazine article say the DCU version of popular mechanics I guess the list would be something like this.

 

1. Lex Luthor he makes your toaster your car and the atomic war machine of your dreams.CEO, president, visionary, world saver, one of the worlds richest men( up until his downfall he was all of the above and more)

 

2. Professor Hamilton. If superman comes to you then you must be doing something right

 

3. Tom Holt polymath Olympian noble prize winner and practically a superhero before him even put on his mask.

 

4. Ted Kord posthumously awarded he doesn’t get the respect because he was a bit of a goof ball but his inventions made the world a better place.

 

5. John Henry irons was well regarded in the field of weapons before he became a superhero and his technological knowledge is second to none.

 

6. Dr. Sivana higher up until he was outed as a super villain

 

7. Dr Magnus the metal men are an amazing feat of engineering though many people believe there some sort of trick.

 

8. Dr. Midnight the for most medical genius world renowned expert in exotic and metahuman medicine.

 

9. Toy man at least before he went insane his work is fondly remembered by many young engineers who got their start dismantling the intricate genius that made up his toys.

 

10. Anarchy the ultimate boy genius so smart he had the JLA's best and brightest stumped shame about his politics

[Enforcer84]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

 

Who?

You gotta play Can of Whupass one day at GenCon. You'd understand.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

Not a lot of Girl-Geniuses there, are there? (Marvel as well by the by)

 

Though the smartest ladies I know of the DC Universe are:

Oracle

Rampage (when not berserk)

...Braniac 5's Mom?

[Starlord]

Re: Biggest Brains in DC

 

http://www.comicvine.com/dc-geniuses/12-51528/

 

 

Maybe this'll help...from comicvine.com - the greatest comic site in the entire universe