Problem Player (?)

[torelin32]

I'm running a hero's game and I am consistently having a problem with one of my players. This player usually will argue with me about some rule or ruling that I have established or actually will argue with one of the other players about the other players effects of the powers.

 

This player will also complain constantly about the AP in the game that I have set which currently is 50 AP for powers. He tries to slide things past me, and will update his character without telling me or actually will show me just before we start our session, which gives me no time to go over his character and check it for mistakes.

 

Actually he is a power player, and tries to use the rules to his best advantage and I am really un certain on how to handle a player like this in my game.

 

One of my problems is that we are a small group and I don't have that many players in my game first of all. Secondly, I've known him for years as a friend, and it is alittle hard for me to clap down on him.

 

Help ! Does any one have any suggestions on how to handle a player like this.

 

Thanks in advance.

[sbarron]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

He's your friend. I'm sure you best know how to handle him. You have to think of the good of the game for everyone. If he's disrupting things, then it has to be addressed.

 

If you spoken to him about stopping the flow of the game and he's still doing it, well, like I said, you know what you need to do. I back your call. Its the right thing to do.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Sure. Tell him that when he runs a game he can set the AP caps and rules as he pleases. You're eagerly awaiting the opportunity to play in his game, of course. And in the meantime, could he stop disrupting your game before you get fed up with him and end the campaign.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Beyond Killer Shrike's idea - simply disallow character updates and revisions, and set aside parts of specific game sessions for any and all updates/revisions to be done during the session with everybody present.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Agreed. And/or take the characters home with you, instead of letting them go with the players.

[Alibear]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

I never allow any Game mechanic discussion in game. I make a decision and we run with it. I'll also make a note and go and check on the rule after the game or if Andy needs a ciggie break. After I've checked with FREd I'll inform everyone of the rule and cite a page number.

[CourtFool]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

I think you need to take your friend aside and have a chat with him. Ask him how you and the others might feel if he constantly interrupts the game to argue rules. You are all there to have fun and you certainly want to hear his concerns but disrupting the game constantly will only add to your frustration until you end the campaign. It is in his own best interest to work with you here, unless of course he really wants to kill the campaign. If that is the case, you have an entirely different issue to deal with.

 

I have yet to figure out the best way to demonstrate to powergamers/munchkins/min-maxers/whatever you want to call them that while they may enjoy 'outsmarting' the GM and/or everyone else at the table, it is to the determent of the game. They may think they are being clever, but how clever will they be when no one wants to game with them anymore?

 

I believe it falls on the GM to give everyone an opportunity to shine. I further believe it falls to all of the players not to step in anyone else's limelight. That means that each character should have a niche or niches in which they excel and other areas where they do not. I also think combat makes for a very poor niche. Also, characters without weaknesses are two dimensional. Why do you think no one wants to read about someone else's Mary Sue?

[incrdbil]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

I'm running a hero's game and I am consistently having a problem with one of my players. This player usually will argue with me about some rule or ruling that I have established or actually will argue with one of the other players about the other players effects of the powers.

 

I'd simply have a frank conversation with him. Tell him you are tired of his rude, insulting behavior. When a GM makes a ruling, thats it. As a player, you would conform to his rulings. If he really can't hang it, he's free to find somethign else to do. Ultimately, you may have to discuss it with others in the group about the best away to address this.

 

This player will also complain constantly about the AP in the game that I have set which currently is 50 AP for powers. He tries to slide things past me, and will update his character without telling me or actually will show me just before we start our session, which gives me no time to go over his character and check it for mistakes.

 

Well, I call this cheating. Every time this happens, I'd award no experience to the character for the adventure, as a start, as punishment.

 

Actually he is a power player, and tries to use the rules to his best advantage and I am really un certain on how to handle a player like this in my game.

 

When in doubt, knock his character out to -40, and leave him there for a bit. the rules abuse an unconscious character can get away with is rather limited.

 

One of my problems is that we are a small group and I don't have that many players in my game first of all. Secondly, I've known him for years as a friend, and it is alittle hard for me to clap down on him.

 

If he's a real friend, he shoud be able to accept soem honest criticism. A real friend doesn't behave that way in another friends game.

 

There's goign to be all sorts of tactful advice, but to be honest rules abuers often don't respond to tact. They will walk over you until you make a firm stand.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

I used to use a contact sheet that had basic rules of conduct for the players in one of my games. At the top, I had my contact information, followed by the rules of conduct. I'm going to include snippets of the parts that may apply to your group.

 

1. The referee will hold a copy of the character sheet for each player. This will be the official copy. If you would like to make changes to the official copy (by spending Experience, for example), please contact me [outside of the gaming session|by email|during the character building time] I will approve or disapprove any changes, based upon the campaign world and game balance.

 

2. If you disagree with a rules decision, please save your protest for after the game. Arguing the rules will slow down the game. You may be correct about the rule, but the referee may have a reason for doing it differently.

 

 

Notes: I suggest Hero Designer for holding the character copies, with 2 printouts. One you keep, as a reference for secret rolls, Disad reference, and so on. One you give to the player. Let them know that their copy is for their reference, and enforce that changes must be approved by you (and entered into HD) to count. Occasionally audit the use of powers/skills by your players, just to keep everything honest.

 

As far as rules arguments go, the best way to handle this is to move on as fast as possible. You can acknowledge the question/comment, and then state clearly and concisely that you will review it after the game. Then move on.

 

JoeG

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Agreed. And/or take the characters home with you' date=' instead of letting them go with the players.[/quote']

 

Yep. I always keep the master copy of the character files (its all digital anyway). If the player's copy doesn't jive with my copy, theirs is wrong.

[Basil]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Re. Character Sheets: I suggest three copies. The one the GM has is the official one. The player has one which is the PC has he/she/it is now, another to write down what the player would like to do, once there's enough XP. The third one makes it easier for the player to keep track of ideas, and makes it easier to present them to th GM.

 

Re. the OP's "friend": get all the players together, tell them you are too flippin' busy to handle everything, that you consider the players as a group at least partly responsible for keeping things flowing and from getting out of hand, and that you would appreciate them reminding each other to not interrupt the GM. Tell them to, politely, tell anyone arguing, whining, yattering, etc., to pipe down. Then, privately, tell whichever one(s) you think most level-headed, polite, and respected (in reverse order of importance), that you're little lecture was particularly about Mr. Whining-Rulelawyer.

 

IOW, if the players are to have fun, they need to police themselves, and keep the logofrhea-sufferers and the complainer quiet. That should never, NEVER, be the sole responsibility of the GM. Frankly, I think your other players have already let you down, and need a talking-to.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

I find a lead sap the best response in these situations.

 

 

Oh useful advice! I get it.

 

The rest of the crew pretty much summed it up already. Have a serious come to GM talk, maintain control of the character sheet, and bring plenty of ammunition. Er, strike the last one. Maybe.

[Rapier]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

HIT HIM WITH A STICK!!

 

 

HIT HIM WITH A STICK!!

 

 

Not helpful?

[sinanju]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

I'm running a hero's game and I am consistently having a problem with one of my players. This player usually will argue with me about some rule or ruling that I have established or actually will argue with one of the other players about the other players effects of the powers.

 

Once you've made a decision, tell him, "It's settled. We can discuss it after the game--but right now, we're going with the ruling I made." Stick to it.

 

This player will also complain constantly about the AP in the game that I have set which currently is 50 AP for powers. He tries to slide things past me, and will update his character without telling me or actually will show me just before we start our session, which gives me no time to go over his character and check it for mistakes.

 

I am--and have mostly played with--unrepentant rules lawyers. In our games, an ironclad rule is that a) the GM must have a copy of your character sheet, and in any conflict, the GM's character sheet is the one that counts. If it's not on the GM's character sheet, it isn't real. Period. End of story. Which means that all XP expenditures must be coordinated with (and approved by) the GM before they have any effect. That forecloses any such shenanigans right from the start.

 

One of my problems is that we are a small group and I don't have that many players in my game first of all. Secondly, I've known him for years as a friend, and it is alittle hard for me to clap down on him.

 

If he's a friend, then just take him aside sometime (not during the game) and tell him that his behavior is ruining the game for you (and/or the other players). If he's really a friend, he'll moderate his behavior. If winning this conflict with you is more important to him than everyone having a good time...he's not really much of a friend. Nor a player you really want to keep around.

 

I have yet to figure out the best way to demonstrate to powergamers/munchkins/min-maxers/whatever you want to call them that while they may enjoy 'outsmarting' the GM and/or everyone else at the table, it is to the determent of the game. They may think they are being clever, but how clever will they be when no one wants to game with them anymore?

 

One way is to look over their munchkin designs and say (in effect), "Yes, you're right--that's technically legal. You're very clever. But you cant do that in my game. Think of something else." That's worked well in my gaming groups. It gives the player some recognition for his cunning designs but doesn't ruin the game. (Of course, that mostly works because everyone in that gaming group ran a campaign sometimes and none of us was shy about forbidding unreasonable characters.)

 

Another way is to *let* them be clever--in character. If their characters can find ways to solve problems with cunning and cleverness, let them. A roomful of clever players WILL often find ways to solve adventures that the GM may never have thought of. Let them. And learn from it. But you have to check your ego at the door; it's not a conflict between the players and you, it's a wargaming scenario--you establish the parameters and then let the players/characters deal with as they see fit. (Again, this works best when everyone in the group, including the GM, is willing and able to be devious and inventive.)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

I've seen several "problem player" threads, and I'm starting to think that, aside from the great advice of having a frank conversation with them, the next best thing would be to show them the responses in the thread. Maybe seeing that many GM's have had to deal with people pulling the same crap and realizing that we really DO NOT like them will make him realize he's being a *insert expletive here*.

[CourtFool]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Maybe seeing that many GM's have had to deal with people pulling the same crap and realizing that we really DO NOT like them will make him realize he's being a *insert expletive here*.

 

…or at least grateful that his own GM does not beat him with a stick.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

I've never used a stick...Switches maybe, but not sticks...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Direct him to this thread and hope he has some sort of a conscience.

[Vondy]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Direct him to this thread and hope he has some sort of a conscience.

 

Not a bad thought.

 

And if he doesn't have said conscience, do you have a door that reads "exit"?

[Silbeg]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Yep. I always keep the master copy of the character files (its all digital anyway). If the player's copy doesn't jive with my copy' date=' theirs is wrong.[/quote']

LOL.

 

Really, I am glad to hear I am not te only one that does this. I have a feeling this an artifact of the digital age... I wouldn't have even though of doing this back before HD... or at least without a custom Excel spreadsheet character sheet, or something...

 

 

Personally, I use "blue books" (actually, now this has moved to a wiki) to track this sort of changes. I ask the players to fill out "closing sheets" each night, and character advancement is part of it.

 

It is then my responsibility to review, and approve in a timely manner.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

LOL.

 

Really, I am glad to hear I am not te only one that does this. I have a feeling this an artifact of the digital age... I wouldn't have even though of doing this back before HD... or at least without a custom Excel spreadsheet character sheet, or something...

 

 

Personally, I use "blue books" (actually, now this has moved to a wiki) to track this sort of changes. I ask the players to fill out "closing sheets" each night, and character advancement is part of it.

 

It is then my responsibility to review, and approve in a timely manner.

 

Well, actually, I still have a Quattro Pro for Dos character template around here somewhere....

 

And I like the idea of closing sheets. I might try that in my next game.

 

JoeG

[Sean Waters]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

LOL.

 

Really, I am glad to hear I am not te only one that does this. I have a feeling this an artifact of the digital age... I wouldn't have even though of doing this back before HD... or at least without a custom Excel spreadsheet character sheet, or something...

 

 

Personally, I use "blue books" (actually, now this has moved to a wiki) to track this sort of changes. I ask the players to fill out "closing sheets" each night, and character advancement is part of it.

 

It is then my responsibility to review, and approve in a timely manner.

 

You guys let players have character sheets?

 

Hmm....

[Fitz]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

This sort of thing needs to be nipped in the bud or it can poison a game, and potentially a friendship. I know here of what I speak.

 

I ran a "disposable characters" short scenario in which one character, mainly through bad luck but also due to some bad decisions, lost an arm. At the next session he announced that he was just going to ignore the results of the last session.... I assumed at the time that he was talking in-character, i.e. that his character wouldn't accept the loss of a limb, because I couldn't believe that anyone would be so rude as a player as to disregard the consequences of a playing session. When I realized that he was actually talking as a player, not as his character, I was more offended than I can say, and pretty much just shut down the game since I couldn't face running it with him in it with that attitude.

 

My big mistake was that I let it fester instead of calling him on it straight away, and it came close to damaging our friendship badly. He honestly had no idea how seriously I took it; if I'd let him know immediately that his attitude offended me I doubt that he would have persisted, since he'd basically a very nice and considerate guy. Another of my errors was that I obviously didn't make it as clear to him as I'd thought the sort of scenario I was running; he's the kind of guy who invests a lot in his characters, and I don't think he really started with the "disposable character" in mind.

 

It's just a game. Everyone has to have fun, or it's not fun. But everyone has to be on the same page, or the potential for not having fun is increased unacceptably.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

This is one of life's more complex conundrums. If any of you are bosses where you work, consider this. Is your time better spent coaching your "good" employees (i.e. the ones that MAKE you money) or trying to fix a "bad" employee (i.e. one that underperforms or has even COST you money). If you are like me then follow this advice. Stop wasting your time on the bad employees and use it to help the good ones make more money! Tell the bad employee he either has to shape up or ship out, you have other people that deserve your time too.

 

My point?

As the GM, you are the boss. You have other players to worry about. Don't risk the whole game going under for one bad player. Tell him to shape up or ship out.

[Alibear]

Re: Problem Player (?)

 

Any RPG relationship is the same as any other. Honesty is always the best policy for all concerned. Tell him what you think and how you feel.