Pointless Hero

[Sean Waters]

There's been quite a bit of discussion about active point totals and such recently, and it got me wondering if anyone has ever run Hero without points? I have not consciously done it but the last superhero game I ran I created all the characters - built with Hero Designer, so definitely using points, but, when I'd done, they all ended up with different point totals from about 280 to 350 - but I 'felt' that they were all equalish in ability and such. I had some vague idea of allowing double XP until the character hit 350 but, in practice didn't bother because they actually did work out so that none of them shone above the others. I was not setting out to ignore point totals but it certainly planted the seed of an idea: they are not that important.

 

In fact point totals are a meta-control mechanism, a way of balancing characters. They need a lot of other control mechanisms too. I'm not suggesting Hero should abandon points, but I'm thinking that it might not hurt to try not using them once in a while.

 

Thoughts?

[pruttm]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I let story drive the powers for the PCs in the game over the last five years. Looking at the totals of the characters they are between 500 and 700 point characters. Story after story introduced new aspects of their characters and often new powers. We are going to finish this multi-year over arcing story this summer. What I can say is that this free form method has brought these characters to a great point where their characters are really woven into the campaign mind, body and soul. The ending should be fantastic.

 

On the negative side, because I have let them grow fast in character and powers they may be unsuitable for future play. That could be okay since some have been around for nearly 10 years. This campaign is the biggest thing I have ever done and the epic natural of permeates the sessions. After the arc ends, can I bring it all back into check so I don't have to run another epic or cosmic adventure? Maybe. Perhaps, though it is time for retirement.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

One game we've retired the characters to we ditched Point Totals after reached 500 points or so.

 

After that the characters niche's were extremely well defined, and each one was merely expanding on thier own capabilities and the point totals were mostly irrelevant. We kept characters sheets (and when it came out and we moved to 5th Ed Hero Designer Files) just so we knew which abilities we had to what dice totals, but the actual Character Points were meaningless.

 

We also stopped giving out Experience and whent with completely organic growth. This worked very well.

 

We tallied everyone up when we retired them and end with a range of 890-970 points or so.

[lemming]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

Sam Bell did a game where we came up with the concepts and he wrote up the characters. Three different power levels and the characters were anywhere from 500 - 1200 points. Not very efficient builds, but balanced to each other. He did a few other games similar as well. It worked well.

[Vondy]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I have (and do) run my heroic games without set points for character generation. I do track points and costs on builds and various character abilities - but that's just out of habit. Its not for strict accounting reasons. Over time I and my players became more concerned with character, narrative, and the stories we were telling and constant character growth (in terms of mechanical aspects of the character) became less an issue. I stopped giving experience. Things that flowed from the narrative (usu. perks) got tacked on formally, but most stuff was done by feel. I took character revisions with new abilities for review on a sporadic, unplanned basis. There's a Digital Hero article on this. It has some good advice. I don't follow it to the letter.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I couldn't imagine doing that.

[Split Decision]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

As it is in any 'artistic' endeavor- art, letters, and building hero system playing pieces, you have to know the rules before you break the rules. This sounds to me to be a great idea for a group of ecperienced players who know what they're giving up and whether they are giving anything up at all. And, once everyone agrees that no, they're not giving anything up, then there's no problem.

 

But, if just one player feels like he's being 'cheated' because he disagrees with the feeling of 'rightness' or 'balance', or that he does not understand why one pile of 280 points is equivalent to another pile of 350 points, then resentment and hurt feelings will rule the day and drive the game into the garbage.

 

So, it sounds to me like those who have had good experience with this are playing with experienced groups with similar sensabilities- that you are all on the same page to begin with. And if you are, then no problem.

 

In my AD&D 3.x campaign, we have a level 8, two level 10s, and a level 11. And it works out just fine that way, since we understand how we got there, and who can do what, and we don't step on each other. Albeit not an exact analogue to the description you make, Sean, but the underlying concept is the same: we understand we're unequal rfom one standpoint, but equal from another.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I couldn't imagine doing that.

 

Split D has some really good points on the whole structure - but yes most gamers I know have your POV.

 

And I want to start by saying it's not a wrong POV. In fact in most games I take just this attitude - points should stay and be roughly equal and I couldn't imagine it being played any other way.

 

On the other hand - I consider it some degree of Inflexibility on the part of gamers as a whole that thinking radically outside the box causes concern. Too many gamers focus on what the rules are and not what the game is.

[Vondy]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I couldn't imagine doing that.

 

I wouldn't do it with a group I didn't know well. My group grew into it over time and we'd been gaming for a good while together. We had developed a feel for each other and the style of game we wanted. It was an organic development. With a less experienced group, or a group I had less experience with, I probably wouldn't recommend it out of the gate. Also, some personalities aren't a good fit for it. Everything has to coalesce into a harmonic narrative/character/group jive or it won't play out well.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

Split D has some really good points on the whole structure - but yes most gamers I know have your POV.

 

And I want to start by saying it's not a wrong POV. In fact in most games I take just this attitude - points should stay and be roughly equal and I couldn't imagine it being played any other way.

 

On the other hand - I consider it some degree of Inflexibility on the part of gamers as a whole that thinking radically outside the box causes concern. Too many gamers focus on what the rules are and not what the game is.

 

I just don't trust myself far enough to make sure I do it fairly.

[CTaylor]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I think a good group of experienced hero players would do this well. I find the points and level limits actually helps me build a better character but I can see how others might find it uncomfortably restrictive.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I wouldn't say "pointless", but I don't sweat point differences of less than 15% of total points. I'll just "tax" overpointed (over base line) characters a point or two per session until the rest of the group catches up, and I'll "fluff" underpointed (below base line) characters until they catch up.

 

The only important criteria is, the group should be having fun. Anything that impedes that goal is not worth bothering with. If a group is bothered by unequal "power" then points, levels, whatever matter. If they are not bothered then they don't.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I am a fan of limited resource environments.

 

I like point limitations because it forces people to define what is and what isn't critical to their character concept.

[薔薇語]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I am a fan of limited resource environments.

 

I like point limitations because it forces people to define what is and what isn't critical to their character concept.

 

 

Same. I think that the point caps are a good thing. If indeed someone's concept is just to expensive to build in the cap, then it is incumbent on the GM to either convince them to do the character in a different way or to see if everyone is okay with building up.

[Lucius]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

One must count points, else

Pointless the game; but know that

Points are not the point

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary at one end complains that such a game is missing the points, but the other points out that the points are not, in fact, missing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

Not using Point Totals is not the same thing as Unlimited Resources.

 

Utility comes in the powers created and how they're used, if one costs 58 pts and the other 32 pts but both of them gain the same utility within the campaign they are - within the context of the game - equal.

 

This is usually what happens when a group switches over to not tracking, or strictly tracking, point totals and experience. Organic Growth still commences at the speed of story and plot, but things are added not when "enough experience" is gained but when appropriate to the story itself.

 

 

EDIT: must spread rep, blah blah .... Lucius: I like the haiku and yes you can.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

There's been quite a bit of discussion about active point totals and such recently' date=' and it got me wondering if anyone has ever run Hero without points?[/quote']

 

There's nothing wrong with running Hero without character points. That being said, if I wasn't using character points, I'd probably just roughly model the characters with Hero and use Theatrix or some other abstract system to run the game.

[The Main Man]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

This reminds me of what I do for experience, but I already posted it in my first blog entry so... read that if you're curious.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I did run a Hero game without character sheets. Everyone was "normal" and then weird stuff started to happen.

 

The game was pretty good, but it was hard for me to run since I had to run the numbers in my head, on the other hand, we had a lot less of "that can't be right, let me check the rules".

 

I did have to promise that we would have character sheets once everyone's powers had been settled so that we'd all be balanced. But the game ended before that happened.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

Here's a previous interesting thread on this topic: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1652347

[The Main Man]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

Similarly, I created an export format that removes costs and it is posted in the HERO Designer section.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I did run a Hero game without character sheets. Everyone was "normal" and then weird stuff started to happen.

 

The game was pretty good, but it was hard for me to run since I had to run the numbers in my head, on the other hand, we had a lot less of "that can't be right, let me check the rules".

 

I did have to promise that we would have character sheets once everyone's powers had been settled so that we'd all be balanced. But the game ended before that happened.

 

I would be wary about going that far, but I've certainly - and very successfully - run a long term game where the characters did not have character sheets. I did, and at that time they all point balanced, but I'm not suggesting 'Pointless Hero' wouldn't use Hero character creation - even if the actual point totals do not matter, the actual effect does mechanically.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I have run a LoEG style game that was essentially pointless.

 

I made up the characters myself and presented a set of pre-gens to the players for them to choose from (potted descriptions were all they were offered) and when they got the character sheets there were only the numbers they needed to play the game. There were no points on the sheets - I gave the characters what I thought they needed to use.

 

Each character was so specialised that I dont think anyone really even noticed who had most points.

 

I didn't give out experience as such - instead all experience was in the form of contacts, favours etc.

 

Doc

[Kenn]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

Not exactly "pointless" but my campaign reached a point where there were both veteran characters and rookies and had been running for nearly (now over) two decades that I had to develop a policy of multiple "tiers" of starting points and multiple "tiers" of ability. We still keep track of points but there's no attempt to balance things. There are characters who do 10-12d6 attacks and characters who can do 18-20d6 attacks. And a lot of characters in between. We've made playing to concept more important than point balance.

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Pointless Hero

 

I had a great idea where I wouldn't impose a limit on disadvantages - as they are somewhat self-balancing, and if some characters are a little stronger than others I can balance that out in-game. My players strenuously objected.