Haymaker a PRE attack?

[Steve]

On page 69 of 6E2, the combat chart shows the effect of using a Haymaker on a PRE attack, which would add +4d6. I confess I've never thought of Haymakering a PRE attack. It is available at the GM option.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, and I'm having trouble visualizing it. That would be one mighty feat of Oratory, I suppose.

 

Has anyone ever seen someone try to Haymaker a PRE attack?

[pinecone]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

On page 69 of 6E2, the combat chart shows the effect of using a Haymaker on a PRE attack, which would add +4d6. I confess I've never thought of Haymakering a PRE attack. It is available at the GM option.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, and I'm having trouble visualizing it. That would be one mighty feat of Oratory, I suppose.

 

Has anyone ever seen someone try to Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

We used to call it "going Shattner on you" the ridicule from other players was so fierce it was seldom seen...

 

"LOVE!!!, love is a ...thing, we ...Humans ..."

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around this' date=' and I'm having trouble visualizing it. That would be one mighty feat of Oratory, I suppose.[/quote']

 

Sounds like something that a large ham would try.

[secretID]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

I'm guessing that it looks like the application of the silliest rule you've ever seen. It was in the FAQ for 5th. Won't be happening in any game of mine.

[Rockhoof]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

Haymaker-ing a PRE attack? Easy, using a power stunt to change your Blast into an aura, maximizing your location, perfectly tailoring your speech to the specific circumstances, managing a triple-entendre, and executing the most dramatic gesture you can come up with.

 

Epic Villains should do it all the time, heroes should do it when it really, really counts.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

Haymaker-ing a PRE attack? Easy, using a power stunt to change your Blast into an aura, maximizing your location, perfectly tailoring your speech to the specific circumstances, managing a triple-entendre, and executing the most dramatic gesture you can come up with.

 

Epic Villains should do it all the time, heroes should do it when it really, really counts.

The only problem is all those things give you a bonus anyway. A Haymaker would/could add on top of that. The book specifically lists a show of power, a good soliloquy, violent actions, and I believe several other circumstances that give bonuses. They have nothing to do with using the Haymaker mechanic.

[torchwolf]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

The only problem is all those things give you a bonus anyway. A Haymaker would/could add on top of that. The book specifically lists a show of power' date=' a good soliloquy, violent actions, and I believe several other circumstances that give bonuses. They have nothing to do with using the Haymaker mechanic.[/quote']

 

Technically no, though they would usually be used in conjunction.

 

In essence, Haymakering a PRE Attack would constitute launching into a quite extensive diatribe, or a long-winded and elaborate enough PRE Attack that it could be interrupted before the speaker has a chance to get to the point - any action taken to interrupt the character doing the Haymaker PRE Attack would ruin it if it is taken before the end of the next segment. This interruption could be anything that either shuts that character up, hurts him enough to ruin it, or making a contrary PRE Attack that succeeds with at least a +PRE effect.

 

Given those limitations, I would consider it reasonable to allow a PRE Attack Haymaker... though I've never seen it successfully used, just for these particular reasons.

[JmOz]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

ID4....the fourth of july will not be thought of as an american holiday, but the day the world stood in one voice and said We will not go quietly into that good night, we will not give up without a fight...this is our independence day

 

or something like that, whenever you give an inpiration speech or maybe

 

"WHY NOT, during the earth minbari war only one human ever defeated a minbari battle cruisor, he is behind me, you are in front of me, if you value your life...be somewhere else..."

 

Thinking that it ccould represent a bonus of taking your time to inspre/cause fear etc,,,

[secretID]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

Somewhere I got the idea that 6e was going to contain a revised system for using PRE and for interaction skills. Was that just a dream?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

The trouble with haymakering a PRE attack, IMO, is that it takes an extra phase, which from a zero phase action is a bit of a jump.

 

Presumably you have to spend the whole 2 segments PRE attacking and can not just get on with something else? Or maybe you can - perhaps attacking and punching out someone's lights might be what makes the attack so effective.

 

Thing is though you can't just 'do' it as you can with other attacks: you have to work out how it functions mechanically first. Are you still at -5DCV? Does that affect what actions you can take - if you can take any - in the 2 segments the PRE attack takes?

 

PRE attacks upset me as it is, so I very much doubt I'll be encouraging anyone to haymaker them.

[Rockhoof]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

I like the PRE attack rules. I'm sure there's a better way to do them, but they're good enough to work.

 

Then again, I'm also a big fan of 4e's Skill Challenge mechanic. YMMV

[Peregrine]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

The trouble with haymakering a PRE attack, IMO, is that it takes an extra phase, which from a zero phase action is a bit of a jump.

 

Presumably you have to spend the whole 2 segments PRE attacking and can not just get on with something else? Or maybe you can - perhaps attacking and punching out someone's lights might be what makes the attack so effective.

 

Thing is though you can't just 'do' it as you can with other attacks: you have to work out how it functions mechanically first. Are you still at -5DCV? Does that affect what actions you can take - if you can take any - in the 2 segments the PRE attack takes?

 

PRE attacks upset me as it is, so I very much doubt I'll be encouraging anyone to haymaker them.

 

I think I'd houserule a Haymakered PRE attack to be a Full Phase Action, with all of the other limitations of a Haymaker otherwise in effect. The first SFX that comes to mind is the character stopping everything they are doing, striking a suitable pose, etc. This differs from the normal PRE attack modifiers in that the character is trading a Full Phase Action and taking the Haymaker limits for a guaranteed +4d6 on their PRE attack. I'd call it square.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

Haymakering a PRE Attack? As a GM, I'd at the very least ask you for a solid justification before I allow that. (or you can bribe me with a bottle Captain Morgan )

[teh bunneh]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

I can see it. I recall the wonderful JLU episode where Zatanna and Batman where trying to get Sersi to turn Wonder Woman back into a human. Sersi is standing on the stage:

 

Sersi: Now you will feel the full wrath of...

Zatanna:

Sersi: Ow! Now you will feel the full wrath of my...

Zatanna:

Sersi: OW! NOW YOU WILL FEEL THE FULL ... Uh oh...

Zatanna:

 

[mattingly]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

Or you could just buy Cumulative for your PRE. That way, you can spend a 0-Phase action to PRE Attack 'em, then spend antoher 0-Phase action to Pre-Attack 'em again way into +40 land.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

It's an absolute, unqualified, "No," in my book. Any justification we could think up for it would be covered by other, existing bonuses. It's ridiculous to try to imagine the means of pulling off such a "maneuver". It's a ridiculously large bonus. And one of the biggest downsides to a Haymaker (that if the target moves in the extra time it takes, the attack misses) doesn't apply.

 

Putting Pre Attacks aside for just a moment, I also liked the 4E version of Haymaker, where you got half again your Str. At least for heroic level attacks. I might just change the bonus to the lesser of 4d6 and half the base attack.

[Lucius]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

And one of the biggest downsides to a Haymaker (that if the target moves in the extra time it takes, the attack misses) doesn't apply.

 

And that, so far, is the only really convincing argument I've seen against it.

 

The other drawbacks - the -5 DCV, the extra time - I can see applying. But it doesn't seem to me to make a lot of sense that a PRE attack can fail because the targets moved.

 

Maybe some other balancing factor can be substituted?

 

Or it could just be reduced to a 2d6 bonus. Being willing to take the extra time and the DCV penalty should be worth something in combat, shouldn't it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Maker

[Sean Waters]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

And that, so far, is the only really convincing argument I've seen against it.

 

The other drawbacks - the -5 DCV, the extra time - I can see applying. But it doesn't seem to me to make a lot of sense that a PRE attack can fail because the targets moved.

 

Maybe some other balancing factor can be substituted?

 

Or it could just be reduced to a 2d6 bonus. Being willing to take the extra time and the DCV penalty should be worth something in combat, shouldn't it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Maker

 

The extra time makes sense if the audience is going to spend that long paying attention. Amidst a battle with bullets and explosions going off, actually paying attention to someone's soliloquy for 2 full segments would be ridiculous.

 

If you are trying to sway a crowd who are standing listening anyway - go for it (well, I say 'go for it' but where is the downside to you? It is just free bonus). Otherwise, it just seems daft.

 

Moreover if the person DOING the PRE attack wants to demoralise his opponents by spending a couple of segments dodging laser beams then hitting them with: You can't defeat me - you can't even hit me - surrender and I shall be merciful!, the -5 DCV doesn;t make sense.

 

I'm all for consistent mechanics, but this is NOT a damage mechanism, which is what haymaker is really there for.

 

ALSO you're going to wind up with everyone holding their first segment 12 then PRE attacking after everyone has gone: they miss their segment 12 action - but they would miss that anyway - and then they get +4 on the PRE attack at the bottom of segment 1 - when the only potential attackers are people who held on 12 or SPD 12 characters.

 

ALSO what do you do if the PRE attacker is hit before the PRE attack is completed? Does damage disrupt the attack (it wouldn't for a punch haymaker) or do you need KB, or does it just have to be something silly: getting hit with a custard pie would probably disrupt any attempt to be scary.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

And that, so far, is the only really convincing argument I've seen against it.

 

The other drawbacks - the -5 DCV, the extra time - I can see applying. But it doesn't seem to me to make a lot of sense that a PRE attack can fail because the targets moved.

 

Maybe some other balancing factor can be substituted?

 

Or it could just be reduced to a 2d6 bonus. Being willing to take the extra time and the DCV penalty should be worth something in combat, shouldn't it?

 

To me, it makes no less sense than denial of the ability to Haymaker when the drawbacks would not be as relevant (ie the suggestion that you cannot Haymaker the cell door if you are imprisoned because the extra time and reduced DCV do not disadvantage you).

[director13]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

Entangle + Presence Attack + Haymaker =

"The Greatest Love of All" by Whitney Houston

[Naanomi]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

How about on the 'dramatic intimidating entrance' of monsters? Most monsters appear, do some roaring, eat a bystander or knock over a building.... before attacking the heros. That sounds like a Haymaker'ed PRE attack to me.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

How about on the 'dramatic intimidating entrance' of monsters? Most monsters appear' date=' do some roaring, eat a bystander or knock over a building.... before attacking the heros. That sounds like a Haymaker'ed PRE attack to me.[/quote']

 

Actually, that's Surprise plus Extremely Violent Actions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

Entangle + Presence Attack + Haymaker =

"The Greatest Love of All" by Whitney Houston

 

 

...er...yes, quite...but it made me think: can you haymaker several things at once as a MPA?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

How about on the 'dramatic intimidating entrance' of monsters? Most monsters appear' date=' do some roaring, eat a bystander or knock over a building.... before attacking the heros. That sounds like a Haymaker'ed PRE attack to me.[/quote']

 

Except that if a monster appeared, started drawing attention to itself, looking a but homovore, and then waited 2 full segments while at -5 DCV, it would have already been the subject of a coordinated alpha strike multiple MPA before it finished.

 

Good for comedy effect, but I'm not sure it emulates the genre that well

[director13]

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

 

...er...yes' date=' quite...but it made me think: can you haymaker several things at once as a MPA?[/quote']

 

1) This is one of the times where brevity slid into ambiguity. What I *meant* to say was that hearing someone talk about this song is nigh unto a Presence Attack itself. But being trapped in an elevator where I couldn't escape? I'd need to refer to the Sanity loss thread.

 

2) Multiple Attacks each require a To-Hit roll (my players scream bloody mureder at the thought of a MOCV based "to-hit" roll for Presence Attacks, the whiners)), Combined Attack (which I think is the new version of MPA) counts as a type of Strike.

 

 

Yes?