Game Master Lament

[LordGhee]

I just announced to our gaming group that I will be running a Musketeers game. In the announcement I mentioned that there would be home work. The players needed to watch one of two Four Musketeers Movies (the 1973 or for those with kids 1948 version). Also I will have a few pages of notes and a couple of 3 minute videos from the web to watch. This is so everyone is on the same page and understands the kind of game this will be. Now I have already put in 40 hours of work, bought a copy of the Three Musketeers (the queens diamonds 1973), checked that blockbuster has the 1948 one at .99 cents for five day rental and have not even started on the villains. I do plan to go the extra mile on this game. So when they read my announcement and two players stated that they do not do home work for games. I was stunned, really stunned, and hurt that my game was worth no effort and no effort was expected. The parties stated that gaming is fun and should not have any work.

 

Was I right in what turn into outrage that I was expected to spend hours of time to set up a game to entertain all and expect no effort other than creating a charater from my players?

 

this is a game that my players asked me to run also.

 

What to you as gammaster expect from your players.

(if some one more clever than I could set a poll on this subject that be cool.)

 

Sincerely

Lord Ghee

[mayapuppies]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

Man....if I were you there'd be an upsurge in body bag orders.

 

I take my games very seriously and I expect my players to do the same. If you're a player that wants a beer and pretzels dungeon crawl and that's it, then go somewhere else. I only want serious gamers that are willing to put as much effort into this hobby as I am.

 

I feel you're completely justified and would, in all seriousness, tell those players to piss-off. I mean unless you asked the to watch the D&D Movie or English Patient, it should hardly be considered work.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

Some players use gaming as a short escape from all the pressures of life. They show up at the table, play make believe for a few hours, then go home.

 

They don't want it to become like everything else, they're casual about it because it's fun for them that way.

 

Some may have busy lives and fitting in just the gaming might be difficult already, and wedging in more time to it might be more than they'd like to put into it.

 

So - yeah, on one level you are wrong. You should have approached them first and asked "Hey, I'd like to present a game with a really specific feel, so I'd like to get some source material together first so everyone knows what to expect, it that cool?'

 

Or better yet, turn a game session into a discussion on, look into and general 'this is it' on the source material. No homework, everyone sits down and watches the movies.

 

Sure, the GM puts a lot of work into the game, supposedly because it's fun for them to do so. Remove the fun from any one participant and it's no longer a relaxing activity.

 

The GM gets no special rights because of all the work they do beyond the Players paying attention AT the game. Homework? you can't require it, it's not a class, it's fun time.

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I'm with G-A on this one. Coming up with a very nice period game was good work. But demanding that the players take time out of their lives (besides what they're already commiting to the game) to do homework for the game...a bit much. Now, if you dedicated the 1st session of said game to a beer & pretzels movie night to get everyone warmed up to the game. There you go.

[Steve Long]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I have to agree with G-A as well. I think you are definitely to be commended for your willingness to work so hard to prepare a campaign, and I'm sorry that the effort's apparently going to go to waste. I've been in the same boat, and it's not much fun for you. But ultimately people game to have fun, and if they don't want to have to do something to have fun, that's they're prerogative. The best bet is, as G-A suggests, to either make sure everyone's interested in what you want to do before you put in all the work, or to try to make the "homework" fun somehow.

 

Or, you simply have to enjoy campaign prep in and of itself. For example, take the STORMlords campaign that I've been blogging about. It's looking like the campaign "handout" could easily become a 150-200 page book. One of my players will probably read the whole thing, find the best/most effective/most efficient way to create his character, and be the most prominent character in the group as a result. One will read through some of it, but definitely not all. One will probably show up at the first game without a fully-finished character, and maybe having not read the handout at all. That's just how they are -- but I don't care, because (a) I'm enjoying preparing the "handout" regardless, and ( ultimately we're all going to have fun.

 

Too bad you don't live around here. I'd love to play in a game like this.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

You all are far too soft on them. It's that kind of mentality that's making this nation soft.

 

 

 

What?

[Jagged]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

this is a game that my players asked me to run also.

 

 

I think you were perfectly right to expect a certain amount of effort from your players. If they couldn't be bothered they should have at least told you up front.

 

The reason I am not running a campaign now is because I don't feel I have the time to devote to one. So if I went to the effort of making time I would be similarly annoyed if my players couldn't be bothered to watch a .99 movie rental or follow a couple of links I sent them

 

There's also the other players to consider. If your players have immersed themselves in the genre they are also likely to get annoyed if one individual is constantly breaking the mood, whether through ignorance or design.

 

Still, turning one session into movie-night will almost certainly be more productive than having a rant, however justified

[KA.]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I feel very strongly both ways . . .

 

If you are not up for long hours of thankless work with little appreciation and no compensation, then you may not be cut out to be a GM.

As Ghost Angel said, you become a GM because you like and expect to do 99% of the work. If that part isn't fun for you, don't do it.

 

On the other hand, the players should at least respect the effort you are putting in, and show up ready to play. Everyone has time pressures and responsibilities, but if you are going to show respect for your GM and your fellow players, there is a certain amount of effort you have to be willing to invest.

 

Imagine a group of four friends that like to play golf together.

Three guys show up about half an hour before the scheduled tee time and are ready to go.

Jack shows up three minutes late, stuffing his feet into his golf shoes as he hops toward the first tee.

"Sorry Joe, I was busy and I couldn't get out the door."

On the first tee, Jack says:

"Oh, Bob, can I borrow some balls? I didn't have time to get any yesterday, and they are too high at the clubhouse."

After a couple of holes:

"Fred, can I use your sand wedge? Mine needs a new grip and I haven't gotten the chance to replace it."

 

Nobody is saying that Jack is a bad guy. He may be the greatest guy in the world and spends all of his downtime feeding the homeless. But when it comes down to it, Joe and Bob and Fred are probably nice guys too. And they don't deserve to have their leisure activity disrupted because Jack can't be bothered to prepare himself for the game.

 

I have seen this same thing happen with RPG'ing time and again.

There are always some borderline people who want to play, but they don't want to put any effort into it.

They are the guys who never want to read the rules ahead of time, so you spend half the night explaining it to them as the game goes along (bringing everyone else's game to a screeching halt because they already know the rules). The problem is that this is unfair to the rest of the players who did the right thing.

 

I understand that not everyone might want to tackle reading the ever-expanding Hero rules, but when it comes to watching a movie so that the proper tone can be achieved, I don't see that as unreasonable.

Again, they are trading their time, which they don't want to "waste" watching a movie, for everyone else's time, when you have to retcon the whole campaign, because you didn't realize they were going to shoot Cardinal Richelieu with a Matchlock pistol the first time they saw him, and before any of the court intrigue played out.

"What? He's the bad guy, right? Well there you go! Boom! He's dead! So, what next, do we have a sword fight or something?"

 

I don't expect players to learn Klingon or Elvish or Mandarin.

I don't expect them to memorize 800 pages of rules.

 

But if they can't be bothered to watch a movie, with plenty of advance notice, then they aren't cut out to play in my campaign, not just because of the value of my time, but because of the value of the other players' time.

 

That doesn't mean they are bad people and we can't be friends. It just means that they should probably come over to watch movies or play Yahtzee, or do something else that doesn't require any prep time.

 

Otherwise, I am being unfair to myself, and all the players who do prepare.

 

KA.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

Man....if I were you there'd be an upsurge in body bag orders.

 

I take my games very seriously and I expect my players to do the same. If you're a player that wants a beer and pretzels dungeon crawl and that's it, then go somewhere else. I only want serious gamers that are willing to put as much effort into this hobby as I am.

 

I feel you're completely justified and would, in all seriousness, tell those players to piss-off. I mean unless you asked the to watch the D&D Movie or English Patient, it should hardly be considered work.

 

I'm with G-A on this also. and Mayapuppies the reason the country is in bad shape is your elitist attitude. Oh and by the by before you claim there would be upsure in body bags, you may want to make sure your not going to be on of them!

[KA.]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

???

[Vondy]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I think you need to talk to your players before "giving homework."

 

I do think players should put some effort into the game, but you have to keep in mind that they may not have the time you have, or the desire to dedicate as much time as you do. You're running the game, and created the world, because you had a yen to. If they'd had that they'd have done it.

 

I think asking them to watch one film or a few episodes of a show is reasonable if they aren't familiar with what you want to emulate, though you need to give them enough warning for them to work it into their schedules. As we grow older we have more and more to do and less free time.

 

I have a wife, two daughters, a job, an evening seminar, and I'm running a game. If someone were to say watch a few movies by the weekend I'd tell them they should have given me more warning. Unless I was having a once-in-a-blue-moon slow week I'd need to juggle things and schedule it. The same goes for handouts.

 

As for literature, I've had gamemasters who wanted players to read entire novels. Unless the whole group is really committed that's not going to happen. A short story or two, maybe. But novels? No way. For that kind of commitment its going to have to be something I'd want to read. And that's going to mean it has to stand up to my haute-literateur ruthless " impress me or find the book bouncing off the wall" standards.

 

In Steve's example, I'd read his whole handout eventually, but it would be in discrete pieces. I'd need a heads up in advance because I'd have to schedule time to read it. In terms of handouts I try to limit myself to a short house-rules document (1-2 pages), a character design handout (1-2 pages), and no more than 10 pages of setting notes. I might ask the players to watch a film, read a short story, or look some artwork over. But I try to run my games in such a way that, if they don't do it, it won't fall apart.

 

I guess my bottom line is: gamemasters are a rare breed. Uber-players who go all out for a game are just as rare. You have a right to expect players to put in some effort, but overall, keep the required effort to a minimum and give them plenty of time to work it into their schedules. The hard-core players will happily do extra credit on their own.

 

That said: I booted a long term member of my gaming group out because he refused to read a four-page (yes, a whopping four pages and mostly bullet points) handout that covered both house-rules and character design. We had a personality conflict to start with and he was being asinine on purpose. He made a character that didn't fit and told me he didn't read the document because he couldn't be bothered and then proceeded to demand I let him ignore it and play the character he made unchanged. I'd sent everyone the doc in email two weeks in advance. End of gaming relationship.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

(Vondy got in a post, this directed somewhat at KA, and somewhat in general)

 

So you're going to ruin one guys fun "in the name of the group" ... nope. Bad choice.

 

This is not some Vulcan "The needs of the many" BS Crap.

 

And it is utter BS. Either the group figures out how to fit each level of participation in, from the guy who reads the 150 page campaign intro to the guy who shows up with dice only. Or you find something else to do.

 

If you want to get seriously involved in a campaign, you should always say "Hey, we're going to geek out on Regency, we really want immersion, you can either join us or skip the tuesday game" or whatever.

 

Don't tell people how to have fun. I show up to my DnD game with dice and my character. If the GM ever said I needed to do some homework I might skip out - I don't want to for that game. On the other hand, I've done a serious amount of help on my Star Hero Game.

 

Yeah sure, it always sucks when there's the one guy disrupting the game, I've walked out on plenty of those - in fact there's a few people I don't game with anymore because of it. But that was my choice to say "Hey, I'm not having fun." Instead of me telling them they needed to stop having fun so I can.

 

Sometimes you don't have a choice, and it's not really possible to leave someone out of the group. You need to change strategies - and saying "Do homework because I said so and you'll ruin the game otherwise" is not the answer. I don't care how slighted you feel.

 

There are solutions.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I agree with everyone...except NinjaBear...you're on THE LIST buddy...

 

Which is why I tell all prospective players what I expect from my players. They are sufficiently forewarned of my expectations. If they don't like those terms and decide not to join, cool, better now than later. If they agree to those terms and show-up deliberately unprepared...I have no sympathy.

[Jagged]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

Re-reading the OP it sounds like they were at least upfront about it. Still, I would not bother including them if they couldn't be bothered to watch a movie and read a few pages. Sounds like they're being deliberately argumentative. I mean, how long does it take to build a character? I often build characters while watching a suitable movie anyway

 

Perhaps you should ask them, in all seriousness, if they'd like to GM?

[lemming]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I'd see if people would like to have a movie night to prep for the campaign.

[IKerensky]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I think your error was to assign them homework... that doesnt sound like fun. A lot of players even didn't like reading rules...

 

I guess making it a more casual, relaxed evening while you all see the film together while drinking, eating, having fun than discussing what they would like to play as character in this setting would have worked far much better.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I guess making it a more casual' date=' relaxed evening while you all see the film together while drinking, eating, having fun than discussing what they would like to play as character in this setting would have worked far much better.[/quote']

 

Exactly - turn it into a group event, you'll probably get better group characters than if everyone goes off in a vaccuum.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

You need to set your expectations clearly. If your group is the kind to be into that level of effort, then great, but for you to demand it of them is probably not reasonable.

 

You have to understand the motivation of your players to show up at your sessions every week. If you want to see a particular type of behavior, motivate them to do so with Heroic Action Points, extra points, or something along those lines. Or, if the movie is required and oh-so important then watch it together.

 

Everyone games for different reasons, and those of us who GM also have our motivations. You have to discuss them and understand them openly so you don't end up in this situation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I'd see if people would like to have a movie night to prep for the campaign.

 

Exactly - turn it into a group event' date=' you'll probably get better group characters than if everyone goes off in a vaccuum.[/quote']

 

I agree this is the most reasonable solution. That, or do without those players who do not have the same time to devote to the out-of-game homework you want.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

Lemming has it right. Plan a session for character creation, and show whichever version of the movie you like best before making the characters.

 

I have to admit, if a GM told me 'you have to do homework' for a game, I'd be tempted to blow it off as well. Even if they like Musketeer-style games, that doesn't mean they're going to like the movies you assigned them, and they're certainly not going to waste 90 minutes watching it.

 

I can't imagine assigning homework for a game. Recommending things, perhaps. Asking 'have you seen such-and-such?', certainly. But saying 'you have to watch this before I run the game?' Ridiculous.

 

It's also entirely possible they get the Musketeer thing and don't need to do the homework.

 

If you have to put more work into a game than you get fun out of it, it's not a game. It's work.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I expect my players to show up* and stay sober for at least the first 20 minutes+.

 

No, hang on...that's what I expect of me. I expect the players to bring pizza.

 

 

I'm notorious for my lack of preparation as a GM, although, to be autofair, I do generally knock up the characters (the attractive ones at least - no - hang on - that's LARP), and at least have a vague idea where I want the game to meander, but, to be honest, the players are so good at making stuff up I generally just co-opt what they've suggested and make out like it was the plan all along.

 

This may sound like too much honesty, but they know what I'm like

 

 

 

* or at least tell me if they are not going to**

+ well, at least 10 minutes++

 

 

** or at least say sorry afterwards

++ or, if already drunk, at least say sorry afterwards

[ghost-angel]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

The OP mentioned the players asked him to run a Three Musketeers style game.

 

Now, they're pretty much pop-culture references, everyone knows the basic idea of it. And from a gaming POV, maybe they wanted to run around France having sword fights.

 

Then the GM comes back as says "Alright, watch these movies, this is how the game will go."

 

I'd probably be pretty upset as a Player. Actually, The GM would have a movie lodged somewhere. I kind of hate those versions of the 3 Musketeers.

 

To expand further: Many things went wrong here. The players asked something of the GM, but likely didn't convey the intent of their meaning. So the GM is left to create from a half sentence request. And comes back with a very specific style of the overall idea. And says "watch this, it's required for the game." Which is another no-no.

 

Many have suggested the whole - group movie night to get the idea. But the GM also needs to ask the players what it is they had in mind when they asked him to run that in the first place. . .

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I find this whole conversation weird. I play games with friends. We, you know, get on.

 

It is different if you've just moved somewhere and are starting up a new game with strangers - but if so I'd be less ambitious. I can't imagine this situation occurring to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I play games with three different face to face groups, one online real-time chat group, and several play-by-post groups that has some overalp but are essentially different groups.

 

I have a lot of different play styles and expectations with in that set of people. And I'm trying to get in with a few other groups of friends I know that game regularly but I only manage to hop in with them during conventions.

 

for me, having different expectations from different people is par for the course. It's opened my mind to a whole slew of game styles, attitudes and approaches.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Game Master Lament

 

I show up to my DnD game with dice and my character. If the GM ever said I needed to do some homework I might skip out - I don't want to for that game.

 

Heh. My level of prep for that game is:

 

Encounter 3:

Grove, cave on one end, heroes enter from trail on other.

 

4 acolytes

4 wardens

 

If the heroes succeeded on previous skill check, guards are unaware. If not, guards are lying in ambush and will attack as soon as the heroes go past.

 

So I don't blame my players for not prepping. OTOH, I give out extra XPs for anyone who brings something extra. A journal written from the POV of their character, stats for a monster or trap I can use, a little extra background info on the character or the world, that sort of stuff. It's not required, it's just a little bonus for the players who go "above and beyond" (and it's just a few XPs -- nothing that would lead to the "uberplayer" soon dominating everyone else).