Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Actually, Superman is quite a bit more powerful than when he started out, and Spidey couldn't lift 10 tons right off the bat and was slightly less agile, and he certainly hadn't fully developed his fighting style at that point. And if ever there were a hero who qualified for 9 def worth of combat luck, it's Spidey. Heroes power up over time quite a bit in comics, albeit not necessarily with the mathematical efficiency of RPG characters. They also get powered down on occasion, which is a fictional trope.

The point of the thread was to look at what it takes to actually beat the toughest villain in the CU. I'd imagine that would be either an endstate/endgame accomplishment in a campaign, or a stepping board for a game of larger scope (Galactic Champions or somesuch). But of course one can power up villain writeups as well, so even beating a 2900 point villain doesn't necessarily mean there are no challenges out there.

 

If a 500 point character can't avoid being hit by a 2900 point villain, don't throw them up against the 2900 point villain. But they can probably dodge Holocaust with their eyes closed. And when they're 650 points, maybe they can pull it off against Dr. D, too.

[pinecone]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

the current "stock" writeup has a plethora of 30 DC ranged attacks' date=' has a 16 DC melee attack, and defenses that equate to a 150 AP setting (before his one-turn DR gets switched on, that is). He's not unhittable, but hurting him requires either a hefty number of dice(20+), or a very large number of 12-14 DC attacks. And the downside to that is he's knocking off roughly 1 hero per each of his 8 phases. Basically, it's a math equation--can you do enough damage, quickly enough, before his firepower overwhelms your side?[/quote']

 

I've never faced the "new" version...but the basic Big Bad tactic is to go after he/she does...anyone attacked Aborts to a big defense (Martial dodge plus levels, or Desolid? Nowadays Dive for Cover! seems like a good one) and everyone else lets off a big bad pushed coordinated etc attack. Wash, rinse repeat.

 

I suspect the "modern" version is built up to stop this sort of thing to some extent (FW, DR...) but it should still work in principle...

[Escafarc]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Going back to 1E DD the groups I've played with(as a GM I've never used him) have been able to foil his plans and beat his doubles but he always gets away. He is the only villian to kill a PC(to add insult to injury he then resurrected and brainwashed her, outfitted her with cybernetics and had her beat the crap out of us) in our games.

[Badger]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

you doctor the rules?

 

Ha, not in actuality. But, he wanted to know how beat Dr. Destroyer. It is either that or create a NPC named Chuck Norris.

[lemming]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I think Artful Dodger from the old Protectors game could of taken Dr. D. (15 SPD, forget what the horrific DEX was)

 

But he did come from a campaign that was high powered. Several from our team could of taken Dr. D.

 

However, I think for campaign purposes, if Dr. D is supposed to be stoppable by a team, but it's to be a hard fight, most GMs would have to tweak him to the right parameters.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I think Artful Dodger from the old Protectors game could of taken Dr. D. (15 SPD, forget what the horrific DEX was)

 

But he did come from a campaign that was high powered. Several from our team could of taken Dr. D.

 

However, I think for campaign purposes, if Dr. D is supposed to be stoppable by a team, but it's to be a hard fight, most GMs would have to tweak him to the right parameters.

Yeah, that's true, but I think the current writeup is designed to be a tough fight for a decent-sized team throwing 16 to 20 dice and running around at 90-120 active points. Unfortunately, I don't think most campaigns set in the CU(or using characters from it) feature PCs who are that experienced/capable/powerful.

[Greywind]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

A lot of characters don't always spend XP directly into powering up their attacks. Most often branch out in new areas for their powers.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

A lot of characters don't always spend XP directly into powering up their attacks. Most often branch out in new areas for their powers.

 

Well, of course they do. But a 400 point PC who gains 400 points of experience is likely to spend at least some of that experience on increasing their DC, defenses (including STUN), and CV/combat levels. To not spend any points on improving them would tend to shift the burden on to characters who do. In campaigns I've played, we usually went up about 1 DC per 50 xp, which worked out to 1 or 2 DC per year. In a campaign setting where the top DC/AP/CV levels are permanently capped well below the aforementioned 16+/90+/12+ range, the "official" version of Dr. D is way too powerful to throw at any group of PCs who are limited in that way, regardless of how much xp they have. Because he'd kill all of them.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Well' date=' of course they do. But a 400 point PC who gains 400 points of experience is likely to spend at least [i']some[/i] of that experience on increasing their DC, defenses (including STUN), and CV/combat levels. To not spend any points on improving them would tend to shift the burden on to characters who do. In campaigns I've played, we usually went up about 1 DC per 50 xp, which worked out to 1 or 2 DC per year. In a campaign setting where the top DC/AP/CV levels are permanently capped well below the aforementioned 16+/90+/12+ range, the "official" version of Dr. D is way too powerful to throw at any group of PCs who are limited in that way, regardless of how much xp they have. Because he'd kill all of them.

 

Well, yeah. That could be a problem because I would imagine that there are groups/GMs out there who decide on caps for their campaigns once and then never go back and think about changing them because, by and large, they work for those campaigns. And as long as they're not eager to move out of their comfort zone (and who's to say they're Doing It Wrong by staying there?), it sounds like the official writeup of Dr. D(*) -- or at least the purely mechanical parts of it -- is useless to these groups because they either can't really use him as an antagonist at all or else would need to reinvent him to fit their particular campaign needs anyway.

 

(*) Which I haven't seen yet myself, mind; but from this thread, he does manage come across as just another invincible uber-NPC whose entire character sheet might as well read "HA HA YOU LOSE" and be done with it to me.

[Utech]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

You beat Dr. Destroyer with the MacGuffin Device, of course. He's clearly one of those characters who isn't supposed to be beaten by beating on him. His purpose is to be so overwhelmingly powerful that no PC (or player) should be tempted to take him on in a straight-up fight. If you have a character who could possibly beat him in a straight-up fight, DD needs to be tweaked to make that obviously untenable.

 

Dr. Destroyer is a plot device and should be dealt with as such.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Dr. Destroyer is a plot device and should be dealt with as such.

 

I think that sums it up neatly, Utech. Let's face it - used at any level of competency, Dr. Destroyer is unstoppable in a fight. Unless you go for orbital lasers and pocket nukes.

Maybe it's best to look at his character sheet as a 'toolkit' of options rather than what he routinely has on hand...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Well' date=' yeah. That could be a problem because I would imagine that there [i']are[/i] groups/GMs out there who decide on caps for their campaigns once and then never go back and think about changing them because, by and large, they work for those campaigns. And as long as they're not eager to move out of their comfort zone (and who's to say they're Doing It Wrong by staying there?), it sounds like the official writeup of Dr. D(*) -- or at least the purely mechanical parts of it -- is useless to these groups because they either can't really use him as an antagonist at all or else would need to reinvent him to fit their particular campaign needs anyway.

 

(*) Which I haven't seen yet myself, mind; but from this thread, he does manage come across as just another invincible uber-NPC whose entire character sheet might as well read "HA HA YOU LOSE" and be done with it to me.

 

I think a lot of groups establish caps of this nature. If they don't, the GM has to make up new villains continually, as the published ones all center around the same DC/Defense level, with a few notable expections most of whom are designed not to be fought one on one but to be a challlenge to a team. Alternatively, he can bump up the existing villains in similar fashion, such that both heroes and villains continually add DC's and defenses, being exactly the same in relation to one another, so the PC's don't really feel like they are getting more powerful. Given the end result is "the heros feel no more powerful", why go through all that work to bump everyone up a few DC's and defenses.

 

The source material doesn't suggest that those recurring villains become steadily weaker comparatively over time, although a lot of one trick pony villains become easier to defeat because the hero has figured out their schtick and now has a means of dealing with it. For the Supers to now laugh at previously credible threats who, prior to that, were well nigh unbeatable doesn't seem consistent with the source material.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Well, I think one thing we've all learned, from personal experience and reading these boards for a while, is that campaigns(and game groups) are like snowflakes. No two are quite the same. It's perfectly valid to see Dr. D or Takofanes (and one or two others of that magnitude) as equivalent to plot devices, never to be faced down mano y mano but only to be foiled/survived. It's also perfectly valid to look at him as the Mt. Everest or K2 of supervillainy, the final summit to conquer at the end of a long crime-fighting campaign. Heck, it's even valid to look at him as the opening fodder to be curb-stomped by your team of cosmic heroes, just to establish their level of badassery.

 

You can also bump up some villains and not bump up others, so the PCs have some villains who are a continual challenge, and others who they once struggled against but now beat easily, so that they do feel they are becoming more capable. It's not a binary, either/or. There are nuances available to GMs. And the campaigns I've played in have set starting caps, with the caps increasing gradually based on accumulated experience. PCs aren't obligated to automatically increase their damage, defense, cv etc., though of course since some will, and since the challenge will adjust slightly upward, most will tend to find ways to keep their characters combat-relevant (which may mean diversifying their ability set, adding some support abilities, improving their skill with established abilities, and/or the steady geometric increase in power and toughness). Or one can set a relatively generous cap at the beginning of a campaign(say, 150% of expected starting levels), so that the characters can progress in ability without becoming completely unrecognizable or being distorted beyond original conception.

 

That said, I'm still waiting for a "yeah, we took on the 2900 point(BOTD)(or 2500(CKC), or 1932(4th ed.) version of Dr. D, and beat him straight up/did well enough to drive him off" response. I think there have been a few that suggested that, but it's not clear what version they fought, what the relative capabilities of their characters were, etc.

[casualplayer]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

In 4th ed. my group Shockwave did manage to drive Dr. D off and thwart his plans. The team had a jinx magician that could short out each of his powers, but only after he used them, which was stripping his arsenal. They had some nimble distractors to draw fire, giving the fragile tricksters a chance to work their magic and setting the powerhouse up for his explosive haymaker, which was IIRC an 18d6 explosion paired with a 22d6 move-thru/haymaker. It was perfect teamwork a matter of moments after the team martial artist one-shot Professor Muerte with a boot to the head, so their morale was high.

 

The 2nd time they met one of the team died. It was a radiation accident kind of death but, still, Dr. D snuffed him out like a candleflame.

 

I'm hurt, Mega-P.

 

The first time my team encountered Dr. D was when he was coming to Muerte's laboratory to see the results of a project that he had delegated to Muerte, which was giganto-mutagenic experiments done on the brother of the team's powerhouse which turned him into Grond. Not his home turf, not his chosen battlefield and nothing worth staying and fighting to the death over. There were people on the team who were alt-dimension immigrants and unscanables, so Dr. D was not prepared and I've always played him as being pathological adverse to uncertainty. He fought a terrifying several minutes and then retreated to his jet. IIRC correctly in 4th ed. his personal Flight speed was pretty mediocre.

 

The second time my team met him they confronted him on Destruga, and each member of the team had a lethal Cover on them the moment they entered the airspace. It was a diplomatic mission and one of the members didn't take it seriously, actually trying to play a prank on Dr. D. Destroyer vocalized "Lightbearer, irrevocable, initiate" and a hyper-agile missile chased Lightbearer for several miles before exploding and annihilating his body. Good thing Lightbearer was mostly soulforce by that point!

 

There were some Neutral Ground encounters and a chessmatch played with people as pieces for the control of Olympus that involved Destroyer also, but these were the feature encounters. There were also games where Dr. Destroyer was the motivator but so many levels removed that the players never figured it out.

 

I find the more recent versions of Dr. Destroyer's storylines and support materials to be amazing and his personal stats to be ridiculous and unusable.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

My bad. I did forget that description. I'm guessing this was 4th edition? With the HM rules back then, and DD being a bit less overpowered, I could see that sort of outcome. I do wonder if the power creep will continue with the 6th ed. writeup.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I think that sums it up neatly' date=' Utech. Let's face it - used at [i']any[/i] level of competency, Dr. Destroyer is unstoppable in a fight. Unless you go for orbital lasers and pocket nukes.

Maybe it's best to look at his character sheet as a 'toolkit' of options rather than what he routinely has on hand...

 

I think that sums it up neatly' date=' Utech. Let's face it - used at [i']any[/i] level of competency, Dr. Destroyer is unstoppable in a fight. Unless you go for orbital lasers and pocket nukes.

Maybe it's best to look at his character sheet as a 'toolkit' of options rather than what he routinely has on hand...

 

I'm not sure that I believe this. Takofanes, by the writeup, can send hundreds of 800 point liches after the Doctor. Not to push this in the direction of a "versus" thread (who knows where that might end up?), but there are a lot of characters bought at far less than 800 points in my collection of 5th edition writeups that are plausible, if one-dimensional threats to the Doctor.

Taipan, at 649 points, is just hideous. Spend another 151 points on this build and woah.

Others who could be buffed up into Doctor-busters include: Superstar (CNotW: 520 points); Quantum (UNTIL: 630); Momentum (VVV: 742); Blackguard (VVV: 556); Ha'pele (CWW: 617); Spirit Dragon (VVV: 443 points, in case anyone is asking themselves which CU hero punchest hardest, at least without using Find Weakness.)

 

At this point I'd start listing bricks at this point except there are no 5th edition 800 point bricks that have spent their points on being bricks. I think Mr. Long must have sworn some kind of self-denying ordinance against pumping their points up into the 800 range, because the results would be just too scary. Admittedly, CNotW's Diamond comes in at 758 points, but, like most of the Sentinels, he's an extravagantly inefficient build. Brawler of the Justice Squadron comes in at 520. It's hard to even imagine what a min-maxer might make of an 800 point version of the same. A guy who could close with the Doctor and break his neck? Probably.

 

And that's even before you get into tactics. Now, that can smack of metagaming, but you're not going to have this fight at all without getting rid of the Doctor's teleportation abilities. (At which point Black Rose and Blink of CNotW become credible threats, incidentally.) And, after all, why wouldn't Scorpia hang out with an 800 point gadgeteer with a VPP sunk into a "suppress rPD" gadget, perhaps with one of the "anti-armour acid" special effects beloved of old Iron Man villains?

 

Again, most of these guys can't take a full destroyer blast. (Except for Blackguard, and that's basically his schtick right there.) But a team of 15--20 800 point characters built around a diverse set of Ego attacks, blasts, grapple, NNDs, drains and transforms, plus maybe a healer or three should have no problem with this boss.

[Tasha]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Well' date=' of course they do. But a 400 point PC who gains 400 points of experience is likely to spend at least [i']some[/i] of that experience on increasing their DC, defenses (including STUN), and CV/combat levels. To not spend any points on improving them would tend to shift the burden on to characters who do. In campaigns I've played, we usually went up about 1 DC per 50 xp, which worked out to 1 or 2 DC per year. In a campaign setting where the top DC/AP/CV levels are permanently capped well below the aforementioned 16+/90+/12+ range, the "official" version of Dr. D is way too powerful to throw at any group of PCs who are limited in that way, regardless of how much xp they have. Because he'd kill all of them.

 

Actually my experience is that Character's DCs almost never change in Hero games. They may get extra levels in CV to gain some flexability in combat, but most spend points to buy more powers etc. Most players seem to almost afraid to go above the campaign limits, I guess they are afraid of breaking the campaign.

 

Also I guess that as a GM you would have to use your judgment as to whether your PCs could actually beat the 2900 pt version of Dr D or if another lower point version might be more appropriate for your group. The trick to making a good Master Villain is to have someone that is tough enough that they scare the PC's but, not someone who is so powerful that the PC's can't dent their awesome armor.

 

As for AOE's being so terrible for High Dex characters, I should remind everyone that one can "Dive for Cover" at Dex roll -1 to roll per 2m moved. So unless the AOE's are really big. Then the annoying Dex person will avoid them as well.

[Tasha]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

That said, I'm still waiting for a "yeah, we took on the 2900 point(BOTD)(or 2500(CKC), or 1932(4th ed.) version of Dr. D, and beat him straight up/did well enough to drive him off" response. I think there have been a few that suggested that, but it's not clear what version they fought, what the relative capabilities of their characters were, etc.

 

Oh we took on and beat the 1529pt version of Doctor Destroyer II from "Day of the Destroyer" which is either a 3rd edition or a 4th ed Champions Adventure (I don't remember. 1990 was a long time ago). Our characters were 100pts +150 Disad, 150ish XP, DC 12, Def 25avg, Dex 23avg, Spd 5 avg team of 5-6 players. It was a close thing and the GMPC was killed as a plot device to justify losing her Focus (ie Radiation accident).

[Tasha]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

My bad. I did forget that description. I'm guessing this was 4th edition? With the HM rules back then' date=' and DD being a bit less overpowered, I could see that sort of outcome. I do wonder if the power creep will continue with the 6th ed. writeup.[/quote']

 

I have to agree that the mega baddies are so over powered as to be unusable in any "normal" champions game. With the amount of work you have to do to make them not annihilate the PC's in a few phases, it doesn't seem like it's worth the effort. I miss when he was designed around the idea of a regular party of heroes being able to fight him. Yeah the fight would be tough and some teammembers would be down in GM's option, but the PCs had a chance to defeat him.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I have to agree that the mega baddies are so over powered as to be unusable in any "normal" champions game. With the amount of work you have to do to make them not annihilate the PC's in a few phases' date=' it doesn't seem like it's worth the effort. I miss when he was designed around the idea of a regular party of heroes being able to fight him. Yeah the fight would be tough and some teammembers would be down in GM's option, but the PCs had a chance to defeat him.[/quote']

 

Honestly, I would like to see one (or more) products that "pitch" to a 650/750/1000 point hero "skew"(ala JLA or Avengers or somesuch), and gives good advice on making it work. I think Galactic Champions was a good start, but unfortunately that just became a one-off.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Five Superheroes, Coordinated Attacks, and Luck...

 

 

That and some excellent tactics by the Players.

 

 

QM

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Five Superheroes, Coordinated Attacks, and Luck...

 

 

That and some excellent tactics by the Players.

 

 

QM

 

Nice. Version? Damage Classes, CVs, etc?

[Tasha]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Honestly' date=' I would like to see one (or more) products that "pitch" to a 650/750/1000 point hero "skew"(ala JLA or Avengers or somesuch), and gives good advice on making it work. I think Galactic Champions was a good start, but unfortunately that just became a one-off.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't mind that in a supplement Specifically for such high point games. It's quite annoying that most of the master villains for 5e were unusable because they pushed beyond the limits of the "Average" Champions campaign that the books SHOULD be written for.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I think Galactic Champions was a good start' date=' but unfortunately that just became a one-off.[/quote']

A pity, that - Galactic Champions has potential, but it just died in its tracks. This is off-topic I know, but... why?

Was it due to its 'oh, by the way, the magic is going to go away and all powers will go with it and you can't stop it' plot device?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

A pity' date=' that - [i']Galactic Champions[/i] has potential, but it just died in its tracks. This is off-topic I know, but... why?

Was it due to its 'oh, by the way, the magic is going to go away and all powers will go with it and you can't stop it' plot device?

 

Incidentally, it's pretty clear they're going to have to change that timeline by the time 7th edition rolls out, because 2020 isn't all that far away now.