No more Figured Characteristics?!

[tracer]

My worldview is shattered.

 

Oh well, time to make DCV Man....

[Steve Long]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

This isn't a question, so I've moved it to the Discussion board.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

As discussions go, this one looks ominously familiar....

[Escafarc]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Let's ignore it and maybe it will go away....

[Lord Liaden]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Go figure.

[JmOz]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

you know I figure if we make it into a joke for long enough it will go away...

 

seriously...this has been talked to to death. Try it you might like it, I hated the idea, but have grown to find it liberating, and if you want to talk about it use search fu to find one of the dozen other threads...

[Escafarc]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Move along now, nothing to see here

[tracer]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Lots of threads about this topic? That's odd.

 

I originally posted this in the 6E Questions forum, after searching for threads there with "Figured" in the subject. (There were none.)

 

When I came over here (to the HERO System Discussion forum), and looked for threads with "Figured" in their subject, there were only two from the last YEAR. Including this one.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Lots of threads about this topic? That's odd.

 

I originally posted this in the 6E Questions forum, after searching for threads there with "Figured" in the subject. (There were none.)

 

When I came over here (to the HERO System Discussion forum), and looked for threads with "Figured" in their subject, there were only two from the last YEAR. Including this one.

 

see attached (an image from the bottom of this webpage)

[rjcurrie]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

A lot of the discussion took place in the special discussion forums for 6E which were around for about 18 months before 6E came out.

 

There was also a lot of discussion in this group in various thread discussing 6E changes.

 

You have to remember that 6E has been out for a year now so most discussions on the topic of changes are long over.

 

If you have things you want to discuss about the removal of Figured Characteristics, bring them up. If you just want to complain about them being gone, it's probably best to keep it to yourself -- we've been through that several times before.

 

Oh, and one more thing, the 6E Rules forum is for questions to Steve Long about how the rules work. Steve does not answer questions about design philosophy or about how to build something.

[tracer]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

If you have things you want to discuss about the removal of Figured Characteristics' date=' bring them up. If you just want to complain about them being gone, it's probably best to keep it to yourself -- we've been through that several times before.[/quote']

 

Generally speaking, I actually LIKE the removal of figured characteristics.

 

It does occur to me, though, that in the old rules, you could basically get +1 OCV and +1 DCV for 6 points, by buying 3 points of DEX. (I say 6 points, even though 3 DEX used to cost 9 points, because you got 3 of those 9 points back when you bought up your SPD.) In the new rules, you have to buy up OCV and DCV separately, for 5 points each. This will probably lead to a lot of characters with huge amounts of one but hardly any of the other. (I'm guessing it'll also increase the use of Combat Skill Levels.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

It does occur to me' date=' though, that in the old rules, you could basically get +1 OCV [i']and[/i] +1 DCV for 6 points, by buying 3 points of DEX. (I say 6 points, even though 3 DEX used to cost 9 points, because you got 3 of those 9 points back when you bought up your SPD.) In the new rules, you have to buy up OCV and DCV separately, for 5 points each. This will probably lead to a lot of characters with huge amounts of one but hardly any of the other. (I'm guessing it'll also increase the use of Combat Skill Levels.)

 

DEX was clearly the bargain in 5e (and before), for exactly the reason you state. Combat skill levels were hugely overpriced by comparison (and they are still a bit overpriced IMO, but the situation is improved).

 

I think DEX is overpriced (or PRE and INT are underpriced) in 6e. I don't think OCV and DCV are too far off.

 

Low DCV, high defense characters are pretty common in source material, and are now a viable choice in the game. To me, that's a plus.

[algesan]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

DEX was clearly the bargain in 5e (and before), for exactly the reason you state. Combat skill levels were hugely overpriced by comparison (and they are still a bit overpriced IMO, but the situation is improved).

 

I think DEX is overpriced (or PRE and INT are underpriced) in 6e. I don't think OCV and DCV are too far off.

 

Low DCV, high defense characters are pretty common in source material, and are now a viable choice in the game. To me, that's a plus.

 

The need for high DEX on virtually any character build was an issue I had with the entire system, but it was just one of those things to be dealt with. I'm not able to comment on all the rest of 6E (okay, I'm just not going to without having the full system in front of me ), but I'm thinking about trying to tinker with my current campaign's PCs since I'm not running for a few months (we take turns running games) and see what happens with 6E stats and the rest 5E.

 

A quick survey of PC/NPC power levels leads me to believe that breaking the DEX/SPD/OCV/DCV combo is worth the stat change.

 

Face it, even though it was pricey, 23 DEX was almost a requirement in higher powered NCM games (heroic or low power superheroic) and well worth the price. Sure it cost you 18 points for those last three, but you got the equivalent of 16 points (2x 8pt CSLs) + 5 pts (+1 DEX rolls) + 3pts (for SPD). (Yes, we can quibble over the numbers, but if you figure cheaper for the CSLs, the bonus for the DEX rolls can be figured a LOT more expensively.) If the PCs are exploiting (err, using legally) the rules, then it starts becoming an arms race.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

DCV Man, DCV Man

DCV Man hates OCV Man

they get in a fight, OCV wins

OCV Man

[Lightning91]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

DCV Man, DCV Man

DCV Man hates OCV Man

they get in a fight, OCV wins

OCV Man

 

I need to add to Chris Goodwin's rep so badly.... but alas the system says I need to spread it around first!

 

P.S. I think removing figured characteristics allows for more options in character generation and otherwise makes the game more accessible to new players.

[Matt Holck]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1881743,00.html

 

The speed of movement

 

Every hero want's to able to move around.

Nothing can be more frustrating then to defeat a villain only to watch him get away as he out distances the hero.

But before buying more meters in running, take a look at the character's speed.

After all, the hero's overall movement in a turn is multiplied by its speed.

For example,

a hero with a 3 speed and 30 m running could double its movement buy buying 30 more meters of running

or the hero could buy +3 speed to double his movement and be taking twice as many actions.

[ned-kogar]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

I need to add to Chris Goodwin's rep so badly.... but alas the system says I need to spread it around first!

 

I plopped some onto him on your behalf. I've not spotted this whole rep thing previously. I'm slow. Which is one reason why decoupling characteristics has allowed me to build myself more accurately.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Why must you keep bring up this painful subject? Lalalalalala never happened.

[randian]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

This will probably lead to a lot of characters with huge amounts of one but hardly any of the other.

With CVs lower generally, what in your mind constitutes a huge disparity between OCV and DCV in 6e?

 

Nobody built low-Dex bricks with lots of cheap 3-point levels for OCV in your 4/5e games? Or even 2-point levels for the punching brick? That seemed like a natural build concept to me. Low is relative, of course: 18-20 Dex. In 6e, I expect to see a lot of 8-Dex, 3-DCV bricks with nothing but OCV or 3-point CSLs.

 

I don't think I've ever seen a low OCV martial artist, though their DCV was naturally significantly higher than their OCV.

(I'm guessing it'll also increase the use of Combat Skill Levels.)

I doubt it. If you thought combat levels were overpriced in 4/5e, that goes double for 6e. With the compression of CV generally in 6e, combined with the extra cost of paying for formerly figured characteristics, spending 10 points on an all-combat level vs 5 points for 1 CV makes for an easy decision in favor of straight CV. The damage feature of CSLs is rarely used in my experience, and lower overall CV makes each point of it more precious and not to be wasted on damage.

[Enforcer84]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

I doubt it. If you thought combat levels were overpriced in 4/5e, that goes double for 6e. With the compression of CV generally in 6e, combined with the extra cost of paying for formerly figured characteristics, spending 10 points on an all-combat level vs 5 points for 1 CV makes for an easy decision in favor of straight CV. The damage feature of CSLs is rarely used in my experience, and lower overall CV makes each point of it more precious and not to be wasted on damage.

 

wouldn't it still be 10 pts for CV? Since you'd have to buy both to get the same advantage as the 10pt level.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

With CVs lower generally' date=' what in your mind constitutes a huge disparity between OCV and DCV in 6e?[/quote']

 

DEX kept them pretty equal in prior editions. You never saw a 3 DCV Brick, for example. We had one occasion when, asked his DCV, the player replied "4". Someone looked at him and incredulously asked "What's your DEX?" "23. But this nobody I've never heard of can't possibly pose a serious threat, so I can't be bothered to weave out of his way. 4 DCV."

 

Nobody built low-Dex bricks with lots of cheap 3-point levels for OCV in your 4/5e games? Or even 2-point levels for the punching brick? That seemed like a natural build concept to me.

 

Saw those on occasion, but they tended to have 20 or 23 DEX and no more than 2 or 3 levels.

 

Low is relative' date=' of course: 18-20 Dex. In 6e, I expect to see a lot of 8-Dex, 3-DCV bricks with nothing but OCV or 3-point CSLs.[/quote']

 

I had hoped to see this kind of re-thinking in the initial sample characters, and play through the 6e published character builds, but no such luck so far.

 

I don't think I've ever seen a low OCV martial artist' date=' though their DCV was naturally significantly higher than their OCV.[/quote']

 

Generally, they had lower OCV because maneuvers enhanced DCV, but the requisite high DEX required a high base OCV anyway. I see a lot use their levels to avoid being hit, rather than to enhance their own chances of hitting - and why not when you have more phases and lower defenses.

 

I doubt it. If you thought combat levels were overpriced in 4/5e' date=' that goes double for 6e. With the compression of CV generally in 6e, combined with the extra cost of paying for formerly figured characteristics, spending 10 points on an all-combat level vs 5 points for 1 CV makes for an easy decision in favor of straight CV. The damage feature of CSLs is rarely used in my experience, and lower overall CV makes each point of it more precious and not to be wasted on damage.[/quote']

 

I don't understand your concern about CV "compression". A 3 OCV hits a 4 DCV just as often as a 13 OCV hits a 14 DCV - 50%. Drop, or raise, everyone's CV by an equal amount, and one level has exactly the same impact on likeliness to hit, so one level means exactly what it did in previous editions in that regard. If they decompress, that might change things. No sense putting my levels in DCV if the game norm is a 10 OCV and I have a 4 DCV.

 

I rarely see levels used for damage either, but if the 3 DCV Brick has a high enough OCV to hit reliably, why not use those levels to hit harder, rather than to move from a 15- to hit to a 21- to hit? Putting them in DCV won't help him much if he gets hit on 7- instead of 1-.

 

I think levels are priced a bit high (10 points for +1 OCV or +1 DCV when you can have +1 OCV and +1 DCV for the same cost is out there), but a Multipower of +4 OCV and +4 DCV, all Flex slots, would cost 28 points (7 per level) without factoring in the ability to add damage or mental CV's.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

 

I don The damage feature of CSLs is rarely used in my experience, and lower overall CV makes each point of it more precious and not to be wasted on damage.

 

Different strokes for different folks. In our games the damage feature is used constantly. Good to have the versatility in any event.

[Matt Holck]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

another natural build would be the absent minded professor who can't see the woman next to him

with high intelligence and low perception.

[Greywind]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

That isn't exactly how that one works out...

[Tasha]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

I think it will be a couple of years till we all change the way we build characters. It's a cultural thing at the moment. Everyone is still clinging to their old notions of how to build characters, and some are experimenting, but nothing really solid has come of it. We also have a ton of conversions of 5e material and that will enforce the 5e status quo. Once we start to get more and more stuff written from a purely 6e point of view we should see some experimentation of different Characteristic values start to take place. So be patient it will happen, but evolution doesn't take place overnight.