Does This Seem Shady?

[Omen]

So, I'm new to the HERO System. I found it extraordinarily complicated at first. However, I'm also a very fast learner and have even built a couple of character sheets for our local chronicle since the ST didn't have enough time to get to them. He looked them over and only changed something in the background story, so I'm fairly familiar.

 

Let me set some scene: We're all students at the X mansion. Characters between 14-16 years old.

 

Recently there was a lot of concern that one of the characters (son of Superman/Wonder Woman) was sincerely overpowered as compared to the rest of us. We were assured that this was due to extreme power limitations (i.e. kryptonite, red sunlight). (The ST has stated that he does not especially mind playing favorites and giving more points to people he trusts to play more powerful characters.)

 

I have actually seen this character sheet now, so please tell me if this is shady to you.

 

First, the character sheet has 78 spent experience points on it. This character has not been altered since it was first created, so the implication I'm trying to make is that the sheet was built with 78 more points than everyone else's was.

 

My big concern, however, is that the power limitation on ALL of the character's powers involved a (-2) for the conditional power "red sunlight" limitation.

 

In the book, I found a couple of charts that basically showed me that this limitation should be a (-1/4) limitation AT BEST and that, if the character sheet had been build with the (-1/4) instead of the (-2), the 189 points that were spent on powers would have actually been [189*3=567*0.80=~] 454 points.

 

I don't have the .hdc file, so I my math might be wrong there, but it's got to be damn close. The chart in the book states that, with a (-2) limitation, a power would almost never be usable. Since the game takes place on earth, I find this an unacceptable number.

 

Anyone else think this is shady?

[Escafarc]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

It does sound a little strange a -2 Limitation is huge in HERO terms.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Definitely seems shady, but you can always look at it from another light. Does the other character having all this power make the game un-fun for you and the other players? If not, don't worry about it. If so, i'd suggest asking the GM (privately) about the character. Sometimes GMs have crazy plot ideas that require characters to be something in particular.

[Omen]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

It actually doesn't make the game unfun. Yet.

 

My problem is that the ST looked me in the face and lied to me when he assured me that the character sheet was created with the same point limit as everyone else's.

[Stone]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

First, the character sheet has 78 spent experience points on it. This character has not been altered since it was first created, so the implication I'm trying to make is that the sheet was built with 78 more points than everyone else's was.

 

My big concern, however, is that the power limitation on ALL of the character's powers involved a (-2) for the conditional power "red sunlight" limitation.

 

In the book, I found a couple of charts that basically showed me that this limitation should be a (-1/4) limitation AT BEST and that, if the character sheet had been build with the (-1/4) instead of the (-2), the 189 points that were spent on powers would have actually been [189*3=567*0.80=~] 454 points.

 

I don't have the .hdc file, so I my math might be wrong there, but it's got to be damn close. The chart in the book states that, with a (-2) limitation, a power would almost never be usable. Since the game takes place on earth, I find this an unacceptable number.

 

Anyone else think this is shady?

 

The 78 XP points is a bit of a concern for me even if that character got those points on credit (meaning until that characters earns 78 XP to cover the cost of the extra 78 points at creation, that character cannot buy any new or increase any existing stats or abilities).

 

-2 Limitation is way too high IMO. How often is the character likely to encounter Red Sunlight? I would say 1/4 limitation at best IMO, but as JohnOSpencer suggested talk to the GM/ST privately and see what the deal is.

[Omen]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

I certainly intend to speak with him. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't totally on glue and that my concerns were worth mentioning.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

One of the HERO mantras is that a Limitation that doesn't actually limit the character isn't worth any points.

So if the character's powers are all built with a "not under red sun & near kryptonite" he's basically asking the game master to have those situations come up in game play.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Yeah, a -2 limitation is basically 'this power is almost never usable'. Is the GM also new to HERO? It's possible he may have misunderstood how power limitations work.

[Omen]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Negative. He's been playing and running HERO for years.

[Cygnia]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

The GM has already lied and admits to playing favorites? BAIL!

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

A -2 limitation implies that between 2/3rds and 3/4ths of the time, the power is unusable. A equivelant limitation is a 8 or less activation roll.

Very unreccomended for a major power.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

The GM has already lied and admits to playing favorites? BAIL!

 

Seconded.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Negative. He's been playing and running HERO for years.

 

I would strongly suggest looking at the Superman builds in my Signature below (there are 350 5e and 400 6e versions) that are built to RAW (rules as written) as close as possible with the intent of building the character on such limited points.

[Omen]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Brilliant, thanks. I've found about 8 other prefab Superman sheets and all of them either list Kryptonite and red solar light as Disadvantages only, or they package them together as a (-1/4) power limitation like this. This, I find totally reasonable.

[baronspam]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

It depends on what the red sunlight thing is. If it is "doesn't work in red sunlight" and the characters spend most of their time on earth, then it is -1/4 at best and probably actually -0 unless you guys are going to be going to other star systems.

 

If is is "only works in red sunlight" and you spend most of your time on Earth, then that might be a -2, but those powers will almost never be available.

 

Overall, I would ask for clairifications on this. At minimum it seems very fishy, and it sounds like you are going to have one character who is vastly more powerful than the others. Maybe for a group of HARDCORE role-players who are really just interested in story and character this would be ok, but if you are looking for a game with significant tactical/combat elements it really isn't fair to let one character overshadow everyone else.

 

A more useful thing to look at than points, look at this character's damage class on his attacks, his defences, speed, etc. If he is significantly above everyone else without some kind of compensatory weakness then something is wrong. The first thing a GM should do for a champions champaign is sit down and crunch the numbers in terms of minimums, maximums, and averages for attacks, defences, key stats, etc. There certainly can be some variance between charaters, but there needs to be overall balance. The really strong/tough (max strength, max defences) character needs to be below par elsewhere, like combat values and Speed, so there is a general balance in effectiveness. Or characters with slightly weaker combat abilities need to have significant utility/out of combat abilities.

 

In short, it sucks to be Robin if you have Superman in the group.

[Lucius]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

It actually doesn't make the game unfun. Yet.

 

My problem is that the ST looked me in the face and lied to me when he assured me that the character sheet was created with the same point limit as everyone else's.

 

Then you simply have to keep in mind that you can never trust him.

 

If you're having fun, you don't have to bail out yet. Unless you have a strong moral objection to beig lied to, which is understandable. But it sounds like a situation that could definitely go bad, so don't get too invested in the game and be ready to pack up and leave if it gets unfun.

 

And if it goes bad, don't judge Hero in general or Hero players in general by this bad example.

 

The extra points could be "on credit" as that sort of thing is done sometimes, but the -2 Limitation for Red Sun with an experienced Hero System Story Teller (I take it your group plays White Wolf usually?) ....it sounds like he's twisting the rules into pretzel shapes to benefit this person. Unless you're all going to find yourselves on Krypton for an extended period. If that happens, we can all revise our judgment.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks this Power is shady, and likes it that way:

Casting Shade: Change Environment (-1 to Normal Sight PER Rolls, -3 Temperature Level Adjustment), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 8 Hours (-0), Area Of Effect (32m Radius; +1) (22 Active Points); OAF (A staff to be planted in the sand at the area of effect; -1), Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), No Range (-1/2), Conditional Power Only in the Desert, during the day (-1/2), Incantations (Calling the cloud spirits; -1/4) Real Cost 5

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Heh. Are the GM and the 'son of Superman and Wonder Woman' player dating?

[Cygnia]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Heh. Are the GM and the 'son of Superman and Wonder Woman' player dating?

 

Ooof...reminds me of the time I was in a DCAU alt!Titans freeform game, where we had been told "No connections to Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman" for our characters. GM's wife ran the new Batgirl, personally trained by "Uncle Tim" and had cyberpath powers that put Oracle's hacking and computer skills to shame.

 

Yeah, that game ended up dying -- oddly enough in part to the marriage trouble of the GM and his wife.

[Omen]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Hah! No, they're not dating.

 

But his wife is playing a crazy powerful daughter of Nova and the Human Torch who inherited the Power Cosmic.

 

She can do everything most of the players can do, sometimes better than them.

 

I'm less bothered by her, because she actually IS made with 200 points.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Definitely shady, I would want to look at the Campaign Guidelines. Then build a Red Sun Powered HERO with Kryptonite for Blood.

 

 

QM

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Hah! No, they're not dating.

 

But his wife is playing a crazy powerful daughter of Nova and the Human Torch who inherited the Power Cosmic.

 

She can do everything most of the players can do, sometimes better than them.

 

I'm less bothered by her, because she actually IS made with 200 points.

 

This freaked me out until I remembered that there was a Nova other than Richard Ryder. o.O

[fbdaury]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Half Kryptonian/Amazon and Power Cosmic wielding Characters built on 200 points- not bloody likely unless they're in the school's toddler daycare!

[Tasha]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Half Kryptonian/Amazon and Power Cosmic wielding Characters built on 200 points- not bloody likely unless they're in the school's toddler daycare!

 

I am thinking that they are built on 200 base point plus some disadvantages. Which is probably 150 in disads to make a 350pt character. Otherwise I can't see anyone even someone built on -2 limitations to actually feel superheroic. Not with character concepts like Daughter of Nova and Human torch with Power Cosmic, Child of Supers and Wonder Woman.

 

I would talk to the GM. Try to be non confrontational in tone, but explain that you don't think it's fair that the character is built on both Extra points and with a Hefty limitation that is too generous, since the character would have to leave the system for it to come up.

 

At best "Not under the light of a Red Star" is worth a -1/4 it is probably worth a -0 esp if the group is planet bound on earth.

 

-0 Power loses Less than a fourth of it's overall effectiveness

-1/4 Power loses about a fourth of it's overall effectiveness

-1/2 power loses about a third of it's over all effectiveness

-1 Power loses about half it's overall effectiveness

-1 1/2 Power loses about two-thirds of it's overall effectiveness

-2 Power loses all of it's overall effectiveness

 

This is the chart from 5er Pg 298, and in 5e pg 194 also 6e1 pg 382 (That's 5th Edition revised, 5th Edition, and Sixth Edition Book One).

 

If the GM won't fix the issue, I would consider leaving the group. You might still have fun, but a character that was built on many more points than average could overshadow everyone. In Hero point totals can be deceiving. The best assurance that the GM can give you is that the character throws the same Damage class as the rest of the party and doesn't have defenses that are too high.

 

Superboy sounds like is hiding behind some shady limitations. That's not a good start. Even with all of that he could still do the same damage as the rest of the party and not be so tough that noone can KO him (ie defenses are again in range with the rest of you). One could concieveably spend a ton of points to buy all of Supe's powers (and that doesn't even include WW powers).

 

If the GM can't see a Kryptonian/Amazon being built on so few points. It sounds like you are in a "New Mutants" game. Perhaps there are things that the New Superboy hasn't figured out about his powers yet. The Smallville Clark Kent can provide great inspiration for how to slowly powerup a Superman character over time.

[Blue]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

Simply put, if you have to ask if it's shady then it probably is.

 

-2 is WAY overpowered. It's all about how often something comes up. If you're fighting in a galaxy with a red sun then it's valid. If you're fighting on Earth then it's worth -0.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

 

I would like to point out that I'm tickled by the use of the term "Shady" to be used with the solar powered hero.

 

I'd also say, bail if it's unfun.

 

However, if Superboy is being mollified by big points - the player needs to be that powerful, and the rest of you are having fun then, ride it out, not everyone HAS to be the uber-hero.