My Elves Are Different!

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

To' date=' me, the standard honor complex is that of the stereotypical martial artist. Always wants to fight matches in the open that no one else can interfere in. His honor is more important than law or justice. It may have a code vs killing, but often does not. It always makes things more difficult, which is often part of the fun. It is a personal set of rules that must be followed, no matter what. It does not have to be understood or even followed by teammates, although many with a personal code will try to force it on associates. It would not surprise me at all to find others in this discussions mean something very different.[/quote']

 

You need to talk these things out with your players. I always liked to give my character a "code of behavior" (honor, PSL, or whatever.) that suited both my style of play and the genre. When you say "Honor Code", those words might not mean what you think they mean to someone else. I'd hate to lose a good plot hook if the other guy's "Honor Code" doesn't fit your definition of an unacceptable disadvantage except for the words he chose to call it.

 

(/Hijack)

 

I never had a problem with elves. I have run a few fantasy campaigns where Tolkienesque non-humans never existed. Instead, there were Humanoid apes descended from animals which escaped in the apocalypse that begat the present situation. I've had various humanoid species of other animals that co-evolved and adapted to living in close proximity with each other (essentially, human and the humanoid animal creatures "domesticated" one another).

 

But as many have pointed out, you can't alter your "Different Elf" very much before it stops being an elf and becomes "something else".

[Kraven Kor]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

On the contrary, and much as I hate to contradict someone flatly, unless you wanted to play a Thief there was a benefit to playing Human, in that in every class EXCEPT Thief, your level was capped at some point. Even Elves had an upper limit in Magic User, that if I recall meant that the 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells were the exclusive province of Humans.

 

One could argue it wasn't much of a benefit compared to the immediate benefits enjoyed by what were called the "demi-humans" (?) but it was definitely not a case of emphatically "NO, I repeat NO" benefit.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The benefits of a palindromedary

 

I didn't start until AD&D 2nd Edition. I think the only benefits of humans in that version was if you wanted to multi-class, or if you used the psionics rules as humans had a better % chance for that.

 

Do you realize how many anagrams of Palindromedary include the word old?

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I didn't start until AD&D 2nd Edition. I think the only benefits of humans in that version was if you wanted to multi-class, or if you used the psionics rules as humans had a better % chance for that.

 

Do you realize how many anagrams of Palindromedary include the word old?

 

That would be off topic

 

Lucius Alexander

 

But I am an old red pry

[dmjalund]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

The benefits of a palindromedary

Enough to help you get a head.

 

:ducks spit:

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I realized where a lot of this comes from.

I am a fully actualized, self confessed Genre Fiend.

So are many of the gamers I've encountered and played with before.

I get along well with my own type.

 

I have also played with those who are Genre Defiant.

I understand this position. It is largely my take on mass media.

However, it drives me frickin' NUTS at the game table.

Some people, when they see a trope they just feel compelled to subvert it.

This is not an invalid gaming style, but it isn't mine.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

The best way (IMO) to vary your elves is via their origin. Ageless First People, mutations, feline-extract humanoids ... Romans, Nazis, whatever.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

You need to talk these things out with your players. I always liked to give my character a "code of behavior" (honor, PSL, or whatever.) that suited both my style of play and the genre. When you say "Honor Code", those words might not mean what you think they mean to someone else. I'd hate to lose a good plot hook if the other guy's "Honor Code" doesn't fit your definition of an unacceptable disadvantage except for the words he chose to call it.

 

(/Hijack)

 

(Hi, Jack!)

I think of this as a problem more with Total Commitment Psych Lims in general than specifically a Code of Honor. Here's my read (and by all means, correct me if I'm wrong), in Orion's game sometimes the good guys need to get a little down and dirty and underhanded. A character with a Total Commitment to being Honorable won't be able to participate in such activities, and depending on the character, may try to intercede and stop the rest of the characters from the operation. The problem isn't so much the Lim itself as that the character is utterly inflexible; he can't suck it up and say 'Okay, I don't like it, but if it's the only way ...'. This is a problem with most any Total Commitment Psych Lim; it impedes teamwork and results in logjams because Character A absolutely will not, under any circumstances, yield his point of view. I have considered banning Total Psych Lims for PCs for precisely this reason; that level of fanaticism is usually not conducive to teamwork. Besides, people who think their way is the only way, and that everybody should do things their way ... well, I tend to question their mental health.

 

As far as the different elf thing goes ... again, I don't see it. If I make a game world (or other work of fiction) and create a quadrupedal creature of animate straw with tusks and say 'In my world, this is what is called an elf', I can't really be wrong. It's fiction ... elves don't exist and never existed, so arguing over the 'real definition' strikes me as kind of weird.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

As far as the different elf thing goes ... again' date=' I don't see it. If I make a game world (or other work of fiction) and create a quadrupedal creature of animate straw with tusks and say 'In my world, this is what is called an elf', I can't really be wrong. It's fiction ... elves don't exist and never existed, so arguing over the 'real definition' strikes me as kind of weird.[/quote']

 

But in doing so you would be completely ignoring everyone else's expectations of what an elf ought to be. Despite the fact that elves are fictional (at least in this corner of the universe) there is a widespread, though sometimes contradictory agreement upon what does and does not constitute an "elf". I could call a clawhammer an "elf", but I would be right in a very narrow and not-very-widely-recognized way.

 

Annoyed by players who really, truly believe that if they look hard and long enough they will find elves? Have them find ruins and/or ANCIENT bones, but never anything more recent than thousands of years ago. The ancient Greeks and Cretans misidentified lots of ice-age remains as fauns, cyclopes, giants, etc. Certainly you could give your players the same amount of leeway afforded to Ancient Greece?

 

Don't want elves? Change the name of the "race" and all your players' expectations hinge upon what information you give them. If you call it a "Smelf" and state that they're sort of like elves with B.O. who eat smelly foods and practice poor hygeine, they will forever after be the "smelly elves". If you instead call them Chironites (or any other name not reminiscent of "elves"), nobody will be disappointed when they turn out to be not very much like elves.

 

What you don't want to do is to find a way to crush their beliefs rather than let them believe in a fantasy. There are plenty of things medieval people believed that subsequently turned out to be so much rubbish. Despite that, the belief was real, even if the fantastic creatures were not. So let them look for elves, and find "evidence" but no live specimens. Sorta like Bigfoot. (Bad example, I know. He's real but very,VERY shy. )

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Annoyed by players who really, truly believe that if they look hard and long enough they will find elves?

 

I wasn't annoyed. I was just...surprised I suppose.

 

Have them find ruins and/or ANCIENT bones, but never anything more recent than thousands of years ago.

 

I wish I'd thought of that.

 

The ancient Greeks and Cretans misidentified lots of ice-age remains as fauns, cyclopes, giants, etc. Certainly you could give your players the same amount of leeway afforded to Ancient Greece?

 

If I were to do something like that....hm. I'd probably have relics of the ancient Elves that were still useful or powerful in some way.

 

Or maybe they'd learn that the ancient Elven mounds were what underlay the acropolises of modern city states and that this knowledge had been forgotten - or suppressed. Of course, digging into an acropolis would be considered an offense against the city and its Gods....

 

You could probably have Elves play an interesting part in a game even if the player characters never actually see a living Elf.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ponders the possibility that Elves created Humans. The first Humans would therefore have been Elf-made men.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Every time I see this thread title I think Elvis....

 

[dmjalund]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Elves have left the building!

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

The straw beast was merely a hyberbolic example, as I tend to do. I wouldn't do that ... on the other hand, I wouldn't care if someone else did, and I wouldn't go 'looking for elves' if a GM told me there weren't any. For a less hyperbolic example, let's consider the elves of the Warlords of the Accordlands RPG, who I definitely would consider using as elves in a gameworld. Some descriptive text:

 

Most elves possess a strong sense of immediacy, and rarely have enough patience to work through any but the simplest plans.

Anyone getting even a glance at a nearby elf also realizes that the tale of elves with pointed ears is but a myth caused by unknowingly looking upon an elf's horns from a distance.

Elves in the world of the Accordlands live short lives of precisely 30 years.

Most simply embrace their recently-returned mastery of necromancy.

 

Also, Peter David, in his Star Trek novels, introduced a race that was nicknamed 'elves'. They were tall and willowy, with blue skin, crystalline eyes, and white mohawks. They also had very limited mind-control capability, kind of a 'hyper-persuasion' power (Kind of like Mind Control with a maximum command level of +10).

 

Now, I don't see a problem with calling either of these 'elves'. I suspect a fair chunk of it is my familiarity with D&D, which regularly accosts mythology, drags it into a dark alley and beats it with an olive loaf ... I simply do not care if the terminology of a game world is consistent with real world mythological sources (unless that game is intended to take place in the real world, at which point none of it exists anyway). I have yet to encounter a player who has voiced any serious objections to this concept, either, when I have used non-feral werecreatures, a neutral-to-helpful Lich, an erudite Minotaur, and similar creatures.

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Harry Potter is pretty popular.

 

I wonder how many people have wanted to play a House Elf?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Legolas is my house Elf

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Harry Potter is pretty popular.

 

I wonder how many people have wanted to play a House Elf?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Legolas is my house Elf

 

Probably not. Ugly suckers.

[Mister E]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Also' date=' Peter David, in his Star Trek novels, introduced a race that was nicknamed 'elves'.[/quote']

 

Because nobody thinks of Vulcans as 'space-elves'.

[Midas]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Because nobody thinks of Vulcans as 'space-elves'.

 

Decades ago, someone ran a DnD world with humans, elves, dwarves, and orcs. The backstory: A Federation ship with a crew of humans, Vulcans, and Tellerites crashed on a planet with after a duel with a Romulan ship. Guess where the "orcs" came from.

 

To me, the ?Vorta? the Changling's administrator race, were a lot more "elfin" than the Vulcans. Ears and rangely build not withstanding.

 

(Which brings us back to the "how do *you* define an elf question.)

 

Re the "few human" question: In original DnD, Gygax was forthrightly humanochauvinist. "In MY SYSTEM! MINE! you can play a member of the important race, or you can be one of the sucky marginal people!" Talk about paging all contrarians.

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Because nobody thinks of Vulcans as 'space-elves'.

 

Except McCoy

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary clarifies that Lucius means the Star Trek character, not the Real McCoy

[Clonus]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Because nobody thinks of Vulcans as 'space-elves'.

 

Did you know that in Spelljammer, unbeknownst to anyone, the Drow have moved into space? Does it come as a surprise that the reason nobody knows is because their ships can turn invisible?

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

This is acutally different from my own usual vision of Elves; but it's what fits into a particular campaign premise I've been working on.

 

 

 

 

The over-arching mythic conflict of the world is between the Orphans of the Titan, and the Spawn of the Wyrm.

 

Orphans of the Titan, also called the Gathic peoples, are recognized by warm red blood, bony internal skeletons, and eyes with an iris and pupil. The Spawn of the Wyrm, also called the Attaric Abominations, are characterized by cold green or blue ichor, a general absence of hard internal parts having either scaly or plated outer hides or else being disgustingly soft and oozy all the way through, and usually faceted compound eyes or antenna or both. Creatures combining traits of both groups are regarded with suspicion as Bastards of the Gods, also called the Tainted Fay.

 

Elves are considered Fay. They have green ichor that is not as hot as Human blood, and antenna. Their skin, hair, and eyes come in a variety of colors, many of which would be considered unnatural on a Human. They are also acknowledged masters of glamour, which deepens the suspicion in which they are generally held, but despite their reputation for deception and manipulation they do have something like honor; or at the least, it is nearly unheard of for an Elf to tell an outright lie or to fail to fulfill an obligation, especially if sworn to. It is also said that it is nearly impossible to force or trick Elves into revealing a secret against their will.

 

This reputation for honesty and discretion and their general nuetrality in the conflicts between the Orphans and the Spawn means Elves are often found as ambassadors, traders, or in other “go between” roles. In fact, in may places, the battles of Humans and their allies against Goblins, Trolls and other Spawn are arranged, regulated, monitored, and judged by Elves, often taking place annually in territory controlled by Elves and set aside specifically as battlefields.

 

Not all Elves remain nuetral; for various reasons some will ally with or befriend people who are either Gathic or Attaric. Some also become brownies, magically geased servants bound to the service of an individual, a bloodline, a particular place, or even to the bearer of some particular physical item such as a ring. Such a servant may be handed down for generations. Most brownies, however, are from other Fay types, not Elves.

 

Elves are capable of crossing with Humans (and a great many other creatures.) The offspring of such unions are regarded as Tainted, as are their descendents, until there is no physical, mental, or spiritual trace of the Taint; this may take from three to seven generations. Ritual ordeals exist to purify someone of an ancestral Taint, but these require a person of considerable spiritual power to conduct, do not always work, and entail some risk to the person being purified. The entire race of Dwarves, in fact, are a purified offshoot of the Gnomes, another class of Fay.

 

The usual Human belief is that Elves were created in ages past by Dragons, infusing their own Attraic essence into humanoid form – the more lurid myths allege that Dragons ravished Human women, perhaps not even bothering to change shape to do so – to create overseers for their Human slaves. Elves themselves say nothing of their own origins.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[Orion]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I realized where a lot of this comes from.

I am a fully actualized, self confessed Genre Fiend.

So are many of the gamers I've encountered and played with before.

I get along well with my own type.

 

I have also played with those who are Genre Defiant.

I understand this position. It is largely my take on mass media.

However, it drives me frickin' NUTS at the game table.

Some people, when they see a trope they just feel compelled to subvert it.

This is not an invalid gaming style, but it isn't mine.

 

Genre fiend - I love it! I couldn't put it into words, but this fits me to a T. I can do typical AD&D, Tolkien, Deryni, Conan, etc. in a fantasy campaign. But, that is the style of the campaign, and no deviation is allowed. If something outside that genre trope is wanted, then a new campaign must be started. As a player, the world background, history, and feel is as important as the type of character I play. As a GM, the world is the most important thing, and where I derive most of my enjoyment. I have never been a GM in a generic, anything goes campaign for any genre, and the closest I've come to playing in one was loosely based on He-Man and Thundercats cartoons.

[Orion]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

(Hi, Jack!)

I think of this as a problem more with Total Commitment Psych Lims in general than specifically a Code of Honor. Here's my read (and by all means, correct me if I'm wrong), in Orion's game sometimes the good guys need to get a little down and dirty and underhanded. A character with a Total Commitment to being Honorable won't be able to participate in such activities, and depending on the character, may try to intercede and stop the rest of the characters from the operation. The problem isn't so much the Lim itself as that the character is utterly inflexible; he can't suck it up and say 'Okay, I don't like it, but if it's the only way ...'. This is a problem with most any Total Commitment Psych Lim; it impedes teamwork and results in logjams because Character A absolutely will not, under any circumstances, yield his point of view. I have considered banning Total Psych Lims for PCs for precisely this reason; that level of fanaticism is usually not conducive to teamwork. Besides, people who think their way is the only way, and that everybody should do things their way ... well, I tend to question their mental health.

 

I think you have a pretty good idea of my current campaign world, and I do agree it is more total commitment problem than anything else. Some villain groups (Viper and Genocide, mostly) will always shoot to kill, and they aren't shy about taking out a busload or three of innocents to get to the hero. The heroes do not have to be killers, but the average character should have a soldier attitude - try not to kill, but if it is necessary to save the hostage or a teammate's life, the villain dies without a second thought, and it won't cripple them psychologically afterward. If players requested, I would run something that was closer to standard comic book, but it's not the default. I'm not going for the comic book genre, but a superpowers in the real world feel, which comes with different assumptions.

 

The best campaign I was ever in had a martial artist with a severe honor code, a mentalist with a strong code vs killing, and a casual killer vigilante that favored ambushes. We spent a lot of time arguing and even fighting with each other, and the vigilante (me) even quit the team once because of his disgust with the other characters. Best roleplaying we ever did, and I miss those days. Since then in other groups I've created characters that did not play well with the group, but they fell flat because the rest of the group didn't want within-group bickering. I went against their assumptions for the genre. They wanted the friendly elf and drunken dwarf and the other genre stereotypes, and when I didn't follow them, it caused more trouble than it was worth.

[Mister E]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Decades ago, someone ran a DnD world with humans, elves, dwarves, and orcs. The backstory: A Federation ship with a crew of humans, Vulcans, and Tellerites crashed on a planet with after a duel with a Romulan ship. Guess where the "orcs" came from.

 

To me, the ?Vorta? the Changling's administrator race, were a lot more "elfin" than the Vulcans. Ears and rangely build not withstanding.

 

(Which brings us back to the "how do *you* define an elf question.)

 

Re the "few human" question: In original DnD, Gygax was forthrightly humanochauvinist. "In MY SYSTEM! MINE! you can play a member of the important race, or you can be one of the sucky marginal people!" Talk about paging all contrarians.

 

Ironically, Gygax's time on the planet only strengthened my disbelief in the existence of humans.

 

Except McCoy

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary clarifies that Lucius means the Star Trek character, not the Real McCoy

 

I've got the X-Men/STAR-TREK comic where someone asks for "Doctor McCoy" and both Beast & Bones respond.

 

Did you know that in Spelljammer' date=' unbeknownst to anyone, the Drow have moved into space? Does it come as a surprise that the reason nobody knows is because their ships can turn invisible?[/quote']

 

My elves don't suffer from funky-forehead imagination-fail syndrome.

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I've got the X-Men/STAR-TREK comic where someone asks for "Doctor McCoy" and both Beast & Bones respond.

 

This is who I meant by "The Real McCoy"

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/member.php/959-McCoy

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The Real Palindromedary

[teh bunneh]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Human player characters are becoming downright rare.

 

Not only are there more alternatives to playing a Human than I can keep track of, "Human" seems to be a downright unpopular choice - to the point I've felt like I get funny looks for playing one.

 

Is this just a local thing, or have any of the rest of you noticed a tendency in fantasy games for Human player characters to become an endangered species?

 

It's not necessarily the case in my games. In my current FH game (The Chronicles of Foxton), we have 5 humans and one elf. However, in my previous game (The Fearless Monster Hunters), we had 1 dwarf, an elf, a hobbit, a darkblood (kinda like a tiefling), and 2 humans. In the game before that (The Black Blood River Expeditionary Company), all but one of the PCs were human (the exception was a godblood, kinda like a D&D Asimar). All of these took place in the same world (different times/places in that world, though). The game before that (The Fellowship of the Dragon), there was only one human PC. So it really depends.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!