bigbywolfe Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Perhaps I would, perhaps I wouldn't. That's rather beside the point. Your argument was that "6th Ed answers are invalid to [you]" even though your edition does it the exact same way. If your point was that you would do it differently regardless of the rules than that's fine, but then why bring up what edition was being quoted? If you disagree with a rule and would make a House Rule to handle it differently than just say so, don't brush off the statement on a false basis. Also, the whole "6th Ed answers are invalid to me" statement seems...silly at best considering this thread is about the cost of Characteristics in Hero 6E. As far as your response to me, how would you handle Iron Man 'scraping his armor'? Would it damage the armor? Scratch the paint job? What? If he can do it than why shouldn't the power be built to represent that, with the afformentioned Adder? Perhaps the problem isn't that "the rules won't allow it" and more that the player built the power incorrectly for what he wants it to be able to do. Either way, Edition doesn't come into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... What question did I ask? I read the board. Questions and builds are not limited by rules edition. Gotta agree with dmjalund on this one Greywind. You make a response regarding a thread with "6th Edition" in the thread title. Someone goes to the trouble to quote a rule from 6e1 with page number into the thread. You then decide to refute it because "6th Ed answers are invalid to me"?!? I'm sorry you have not updated to 6e for whatever reasons but that is the silliest response by anyone I've seen on these boards in a while. For what it's worth, here's the 5er text: from Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter Powers page 123 If characters with unusual Movement Powers (such as Flight or Teleportation) are knocked to the ground, they cannot use those Powers to stand up as a Zero Phase Action unless they have paid for the Position Shift Adder (see below).Wow, exactly the same text was used in 6e. No mention of sfx anywhere. As sfx ruling might be a great house rule for your games but it is not a core rule of the system (6e or 5er). Additionally a GM override of this type would piss me off as a player of another character in same game if my character did pay for the Position Shift Adder on their movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... I'm sorry you have not updated to 6e for whatever reasons... Money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... ... Perhaps the problem isn't that "the rules won't allow it" and more that the player built the power incorrectly for what he wants it to be able to do... This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... If the hero goes desolid' date=' dives behind cover or T Ports away, the villain can grab what he came here to take and make his escape. Who says he's hung up on KO'ing you?[/quote'] Who talked about the Hero having the first action. In Hero vs. Villians fights, the villians have usually the easier goal: Escape with the loot. Icesheet: Who say you manage to stand up in the first place and stay on your and can walk on it? Icesheets tend stay for a while.... Shove: When you fall of the building, I hope you have flight. That way you only loose 1-2 Phases trhough the fallign distance. Flash: Just needs to hold during your next phase, so I can power up my NCM Teleport or activate my other MCN movement. Teleport, Desolid: I move where you can't follow me. Also you generally asume that that one half phase lost would not be relevant. With the plentoria of movement power availible and without knowing how far the enemy can go with a half phase, that cover eh moves behind can be very easily a full move away for you... That first action can mean a lot more, than you think it does. And especially for held actions that are used to intercept an eney attack: Conflicting DEX roll. Sometimes the life of the hostage or the fate of the world hangs upon the question who acts first.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Rules are guidelines. Dramatic and cinematic trumps rules. If Iron Man wants to scrape his armor taking off from a prone position, you going to tell him the rules won't allow it? No. I'm going to tell him that, until he spends a half phase to reorient himself, he still suffers all of the penalties for being prone. If you have only Running, you can stay prone and crawl. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to fly while prone, but you need to spend a half phase to reorient before the penalties for being prone go away. I'd think some form of skill roll, modified for your speed and acceleration, would be appropriate considering you are trying to fly without properly orienting your propulsion systems to move in a controlled fashion. If you don't view that result as consistent with your vision of your character's flight systems, spend the points for the adder, or perhaps buy Aerobatics (an acro roll allows you to stand up as a 0 phase, doesn't it?) - you don't get to avoid the penalties for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Who talked about the Hero having the first action. In Hero vs. Villians fights, the villians have usually the easier goal: Escape with the loot. Icesheet: Who say you manage to stand up in the first place and stay on your and can walk on it? Icesheets tend stay for a while.... Shove: When you fall of the building, I hope you have flight. That way you only loose 1-2 Phases trhough the fallign distance. Flash: Just needs to hold during your next phase, so I can power up my NCM Teleport or activate my other MCN movement. Teleport, Desolid: I move where you can't follow me. Also you generally asume that that one half phase lost would not be relevant. With the plentoria of movement power availible and without knowing how far the enemy can go with a half phase, that cover eh moves behind can be very easily a full move away for you... OK, last one first - to ice sheet, barrier, shove or flash, the villain must attack. His phase ended. He doesn't get a half phase to move away unless he moves away, then attacks (with range penalties). Why should my character not, as soon as the First Mover attacks, either Dive for Cover or Abort to Dodge with all skill levels moved to DCV? I get another phase before you do, so blowing this one is not that big a deal. The ice sheet, shove, etc. are all useful abilities. So is going first. None of them are the Uberpower that will achieve victory in all, or even most, circumstances. They are useful abilities providing some measure of advantage. In some cases, against specific opponents, they may well be gamewinners (but the actual power is typically far more important than being able to use it first rather than weathering a single attack first, then using your Gamebreaker). That first action can mean a lot more, than you think it does. And especially for held actions that are used to intercept an eney attack: Conflicting DEX roll. Sometimes the life of the hostage or the fate of the world hangs upon the question who acts first.... If you delay, you need to make an opposed DEX roll to interrupt a subsequent action, whether or not you otherwise would have gone first. Unless you abort to a defensive action, in which case you get to go first regardless of relative DEX. No one is saying first action has no utility. We are saying it is vastly overvalued compared to other uses of the same points. And the higher the average DEX in game, the more overvalued it is. If a DEX of 18 is pretty much a guaranteed first strike, and I want an 11- DEX roll, that's a 20 point cost. Move this into a game with average DEX of 23, and 30 not being uncommon, I need a 33 to have a good chance of always getting that first strike - a 50 CP investment. I can do a lot more with 50 than 20, but the same benefit of "I normally go first" is the tradeoff. And if I buy PRE instead, I can undertake a PRE attack at any time (ie before you get your first strike), potentially delaying or even denying your action. If you have a 33 DEX to my 8, and I have 70 PRE to your 20, and we are otherwise identical (other than SFX), who's got the advantage? Of course, you'll pull out some PRE cap - if you want to drop PRE by 10 or 20, invest it in extra SPD points. My 10d6 PRE attack will average 35, well over your 20 PRE. A decent soliloquy will bump me to PRE + 20 pretty often, and PRE +10 is highly likely. Sure, they fade with repeated use - but I likely get that first action you're hung up on, plus I have higher SPD to get more actions. If "first strike from DEX" is as important as you make it out to be, "first strike from PRE plus extra actions" seems likely to be even more effective for the same cost. Just the SPD lets me Abort and still act before you move again. First strike is useful, but overpriced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penemue Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... I have not jumped on the 6th ed. bandwagon for a few reasons but mostly because my group would not play it. They resisted 5th ed. and still grumble about it. The changes to 6th edition just don't make sense to me. What made the Hero System quirky, unique and fun is mostly gone. I have run my Champions campaign almost 30 years now. I like 5th ed. and if I was able I'm sure I'd be able to run it for another 30 years based on all of the support material that was created for it. I managed to pick up tons of books at game stores unloading 5th ed. books for 5 bucks when 6th ed. came out. So I'm set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... I have not jumped on the 6th ed. bandwagon for a few reasons but mostly because my group would not play it. They resisted 5th ed. and still grumble about it. The changes to 6th edition just don't make sense to me. What made the Hero System quirky, unique and fun is mostly gone. I have run my Champions campaign almost 30 years now. I like 5th ed. and if I was able I'm sure I'd be able to run it for another 30 years based on all of the support material that was created for it. I managed to pick up tons of books at game stores unloading 5th ed. books for 5 bucks when 6th ed. came out. So I'm set. And I thought the same thing until I actually got to play it; I don't think HERO lost anything in the change to 6E so far as the uniqueness and completeness of the system. But I always play a bit loose with the rules anywho. And by all means, whatever version works best for you is completely your decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... 6th Ed answers are invalid to me. Thank you for playing. Go to 5er pg 123 Other Rules 2nd paragraph for the Same quote Christopher gave word for word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Rules are guidelines. Dramatic and cinematic trumps rules. If Iron Man wants to scrape his armor taking off from a prone position, you going to tell him the rules won't allow it? Sure I'll allow him to do it, but since he's only has regular flight and needs to get his feet under him to fly I would say that it takes a half phase to orient himself, then he can start to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... I have not jumped on the 6th ed. bandwagon for a few reasons but mostly because my group would not play it. They resisted 5th ed. and still grumble about it. The changes to 6th edition just don't make sense to me. What made the Hero System quirky, unique and fun is mostly gone. I have run my Champions campaign almost 30 years now. I like 5th ed. and if I was able I'm sure I'd be able to run it for another 30 years based on all of the support material that was created for it. I managed to pick up tons of books at game stores unloading 5th ed. books for 5 bucks when 6th ed. came out. So I'm set. The funny thing is that once you get beyond Character gen, the differences between 5e and 6e are pretty minor. I just like how much easier it is to build characters that I like. But whatever works for you. I really don't want to reignite another 5e vs 6e debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... There is no Debate. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penemue Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... haha.. I missed the whole debate on here it seems. Really, not an option for me really. I rely on my players and if I switched up editions they would be grumpy and not want to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... And I thought the same thing until I actually got to play it; I don't think HERO lost anything in the change to 6E so far as the uniqueness and completeness of the system. But I always play a bit loose with the rules anywho. And by all means, whatever version works best for you is completely your decision. 6E is essentially the same game, and plays pretty much mechanically the same, but how characters are represented oftentimes has a lot to do with whether or not I decide to play a game system. I simply do not like the decoupling of Secondary Characteristics. It throws off the cost structure of the Primary characteristics, as evidenced by the sheer number of posts regarding that specific topic. Other changes I don't like include the dropping of Elemental Controls, the removal of Find Weakness (though designing it as a Naked Advantaged AP with the Requires Skill Roll limitation works pretty well) and the dropping of Transfer as well as the changes to cost structure of Skill Levels and Combat Skill Levels. (Overall Levels were expensive enough at 10pts a pop. 12pts each is way too much IMO) The more I read and absorb the 6Ed, the more I realize that I will probably stick to FREd. If I "fixed" all the issues I have with the 6Ed, what I would essentially be doing is playing 5Ed, just changing "inches" of movement to "meters" of movement and calling it 6th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... What did kennethgweber12 say that was ban-worthy ? Yes. See' date=' "Holding An Action" (6e2 20).[/quote'] Is that what one chooses when they have to use the bathroom, but can't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Yeah, there's really no meaningful mechanical differences in how combat works in 6th vs. 5th ed. Most of the differences occur in the character creation phase. Delinking figureds is a pretty big deal, but has a side benefit that you don't have to be a minimaxer to do a decent allocation of characteristics points. What you see is what you get. Most of the powers changes are primarily tweaks. You don't have to take as many points in disads now. Decoupling Dex and CV was a pretty big deal, too. It enables the low-DEX, high OCV brick type, among other things--or the acrobat who's untrained in fighting. Overall, I prefer 6th to 5th. My only concern is page count creep. 700 plus pages of rules is not a system appealing to newbies or casual gamers. I suspect 7th will be even worse on this score, and that we'll have to have a new author write up a highly streamlined 8th edition(likely using a "meta tag" system to classify powers--e.g., Damage, Protect, Sense, Move, Change, etc.--merging PD/ED into "Defense", dropping SPD and permitting the purchase of "extra actions per turn", etc.) that isn't bulletproof and doesn't require KS: Previous Versions of Hero System, 14- to learn and play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... a system appealing to newbies or casual gamers. Speed versus Detail. Business versus Integrity. These age old battles will continue on into the foreseeable future... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Yeah' date=' there's really no meaningful mechanical differences in how combat works in 6th vs. 5th ed. Most of the differences occur in the character creation phase. Delinking figureds is a pretty big deal, but has a side benefit that you don't have to be a minimaxer to do a decent allocation of characteristics points. What you see is what you get. Most of the powers changes are primarily tweaks. You don't have to take as many points in disads now. Decoupling Dex and CV was a pretty big deal, too. It enables the low-DEX, high OCV brick type, among other things--or the acrobat who's untrained in fighting. Overall, I prefer 6th to 5th. My only concern is page count creep. 700 plus pages of rules is not a system appealing to newbies or casual gamers. I suspect 7th will be even worse on this score, and that we'll have to have a new author write up a highly streamlined 8th edition(likely using a "meta tag" system to classify powers--e.g., Damage, Protect, Sense, Move, Change, etc.--merging PD/ED into "Defense", dropping SPD and permitting the purchase of "extra actions per turn", etc.) that isn't bulletproof and doesn't require KS: Previous Versions of Hero System, 14- to learn and play.[/quote'] You could make "Low Dex, High CV" Bricks in the old Hero System, you just needed to use Combat Skill Levels to facilitate this, which is almost the same cost structure as just buying Combat Value in 6th. You could also simulate the Acrobat that is untrained in combat as well. Decent but not astronomical Dexterity score (say 15. Not all Acrobats need an 18+ DEX, Acrobatics is after all a skill that can be bought up independently from Dexterity) and say +3 in Acrobatics for a 15 or less skill roll. I understand it though. Decoupling Secondaries from the Primaries makes the system just that much more flexible than before. Now I wouldn't necessarily have a problem playing a game using the 6th edition, but as a GM, most likely I will be using 5th to run my games in the foreseeable future... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Well, at some point, the old editions tend to wear out. That said, we went from 216 pages in 4th, to 432 in 5th, 592 in 5th revised, and around 800 in 6th. Is 6th four times better than 4th? At this rate, 7th Revised Expanded will clock in somewhere between 1000 and 1500 pages. At which point people will finally be screaming for brevity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... If Hero 6E Basic had a few more of the rules (Multiple Attacks, Time Limit and Damage Negation being the three I can think of off the top) I'd be using that exclusively. I'm all about brevity. Edit: But I think the Hero 6th goes a long way (maybe too long) to explain the concepts of Hero with examples. In a way, that is a really good thing. It is also very intimidating for the potential newcomers to see two huge books on the shelf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Chicken and egg. DEX has always been a ridiculously good deal in HERO so players bought a lot for their characters so gaming sessions were designed to emphasize DEX so players bought a lot for their characters so..... The games we play reflect not only the tools we use but the tools we favor. Sherlock HERO would probably have INT cost 2 pts per. My main reason for not liking DEX at 2 pts per, and house ruling it to 1 pt per, is that it is aesthetically unpleasing to have one basic stat with a different cost structure. Makes it a pain for adjustment powers and also explaining character generation to new folks. Being exceptionally costed draws the attention and encourages inappropriately inflated stats leading to chicken, egg escalation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Chicken and egg. DEX has always been a ridiculously good deal in HERO so players bought a lot for their characters so gaming sessions were designed to emphasize DEX so players bought a lot for their characters so..... The games we play reflect not only the tools we use but the tools we favor. Sherlock HERO would probably have INT cost 2 pts per. My main reason for not liking DEX at 2 pts per, and house ruling it to 1 pt per, is that it is aesthetically unpleasing to have one basic stat with a different cost structure. Makes it a pain for adjustment powers and also explaining character generation to new folks. Being exceptionally costed draws the attention and encourages inappropriately inflated stats leading to chicken, egg escalation. Ideally, all "primary" stats would be similarly costed, AND each point would have game-mechanical significance(e.g., a meaningful difference between a 9 and 11 INT.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Ideally' date=' all "primary" stats would be similarly costed, AND each point would have game-mechanical significance(e.g., a meaningful difference between a 9 and 11 INT.)[/quote'] Yep, and it wouldn't take much more than changing CHAR Rolls to Roll Success = < relevant CHAR on 3d6 and restructuring the modifier charts for difficulty. Huh. It actually wouldn't. Hmmm, might have to flesh this one out and see if it runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Give Me Granularity, Or Give Me Death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.