A Crisis of Faith...

[Badger]

Me personally, I've always been good at math so adding up stuff doesnt bother me as much (in fact it can be fun, gasp:D )

 

But, people's taste change. Six or seven years ago I thought you couldnt no better than the Star Wars series. Then I started watching some anime and liked it (plus there was that Phantom Menace incident) so I got turned off of Star Wars. So you can change taste in just about anything. I used to play Star Wars RPG but I (and most of my friends) got bored with it because you couldnt create a wide diversity of characters. We got onto HERO because of a wider variety basically. And like it was earlier stated HERO isnt gonna "divorce" you if you leave for awhile and come back. LOL.

[Fedifensor]

I really enjoy the HERO system, but I've only experienced it twice over the past several years (ran it once at a convention, and played it once at another convention). I can't get my fellow gamers to even give it a try, and I was thinking about the reasons:

 

1) Complicated character generation. Let's face it, HERO is much more complicated than class-based systems such as D&D. Even more freeform systems (such as Storyteller) are significantly less work. Even superhero games such as Aberrant have simpler chargen than trying to make a starting 350-point super. Sure, you could just roll randomly on the tables in the Champions book, but personalizing a character in HERO takes much longer than adjusting a few skills or feats in D&D.

 

2) Rules-heavy. Oddly, D&D is beginning to emulate HERO in this respect. There's a trend to have a rule (as opposed to a guideline) for everything. Want to pick up something while moving? Suddenly you have to figure out if you can do so while in motion, and apply various modifiers to the roll. Heaven forbid you want to do something like peek out from behind a wall, fire a gun, and slip back behind the wall before the bad guys can get a bead on you...

 

3) Too much reading. The section on character creation in 5E HERO covers pages 11-224, or 214 pages. The latest rules FAQ available for download from the website is 155 pages! That's over 350 pages of material you're expected to go through to make sure you have a "legal" character.

 

4) Logic gaps and unnecessary complexity. I respect Steve Long for the titanic task of updating HERO to 5th edition, but there are some real pain-in-the-you-know-what rules that defy common sense. A horrendously-expensive Shape Shift that is way more complicated and less useful than the 4th edition version. A description of Healing-as-Regeneration that takes more space in the book than the entire 4th edition writeup of Regeneration as a separate power. Force Walls with Power Defense that disintegrate if someone tries to speak with you telepathically or shines a bright light your way. Noncombat movement that costs lots of points to travel at 100 MPH...but you can go supersonic speeds for less than 10 points (Flight 5", Megascale). It isn't restricted to power writeups, either. Every 5 points of Strength *doubles* your lifting power, but only gives you an extra hex or two of throwing distance.

 

It's these sort of things that makes HERO a hard-sell. Sure, a good GM can overcome much of this by taking on the extra workload and making judgment calls or house rules, but players who want to learn the system are going to hit all of these pitfalls.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Fedifensor

I really enjoy the HERO system, but I've only experienced it twice over the past several years (ran it once at a convention, and played it once at another convention). I can't get my fellow gamers to even give it a try, and I was thinking about the reasons:

So, out of several hundred pages of rules you only have 4 problems? That doesn't sound so bad.

[Fedifensor]

Originally posted by Monolith

So, out of several hundred pages of rules you only have 4 problems? That doesn't sound so bad.

Well, actually, my current situation can be summed up rather quickly... THUMP!

 

That's the sound my Hero System 5th Edition book makes when I drop it onto the gaming table. The eyes of my players widen when they see how big the book is.

 

One eventually comments, "Well, I'm assuming not all of that is the rules. There's an adventure, or world background, or some other fluff in there...right?"

 

I reply, "Nope. The first 334 pages are rules, and then there is a small (25-page) section on gamemastering and tweaking the rules."

 

"Er, right. So, when are you running D&D...?"

 

"Come on, at least flip through the book..."

 

(flip, flip) "Man, I've seen stereo instructions that are less work to read. Look at pages 106 to 108...three pages to describe how to tie someone up?"

 

"Well, it's a flexible system...."

 

"Flexible? Look at all the Combat Modifiers! Is there a rule that tells you how your character goes to the bathroom, too? Sheesh! Look, it's either D&D, or I walk."

 

(heavy sigh) "Okay, let me get my $200 worth of D&D rulebooks so I can start working on an adventure..."

 

"Yeah, whatever. I noticed you've got about $200 of Hero books on your shelf, too. So much for the one book argument."

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Fedifensor

Well, actually, my current situation can be summed up rather quickly... THUMP!

I think every person's experiences are different. I have 5 players who love to make characters. I have 2 players who have completely new characters, with origins, which they give me each game to use and add to my villain roster. So from that standpoint I can say that my player's experiences are different than yours.

 

I am not disagreeing with your points, but I will say that once the players get past character creation the rest of the rules in FREd that the players would need to know only constitute about 80 pages. So, for 99 out of 100 game sessions the players only really need to know a small amount of material. That is really not too much of a problem, and those 80 pages are probably less than what they need to know in d20.

 

And while character creation is less math heavy in SAS and M&M any good player would put the same amount of time into creating a personalized character in those game systems as they would in HERO; in some regards possibly even more because more information in those two games systems is on the fly material. For some players it is much harder to just make something up than it is to have choices to pick from.

[Lord Liaden]

Perhaps when the HERO System Sidekick comes out, you can try again with your group. 128 pages makes a far softer and less intimidating sound when it hits the table.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Fedifensor

Well, actually, my current situation can be summed up rather quickly... THUMP!

 

That's the sound my Hero System 5th Edition book makes when I drop it onto the gaming table. The eyes of my players widen when they see how big the book is.

 

One eventually comments, "Well, I'm assuming not all of that is the rules. There's an adventure, or world background, or some other fluff in there...right?"

 

I reply, "Nope. The first 334 pages are rules, and then there is a small (25-page) section on gamemastering and tweaking the rules."

 

"Er, right. So, when are you running D&D...?"

 

"Come on, at least flip through the book..."

 

(flip, flip) "Man, I've seen stereo instructions that are less work to read. Look at pages 106 to 108...three pages to describe how to tie someone up?"

 

"Well, it's a flexible system...."

 

"Flexible? Look at all the Combat Modifiers! Is there a rule that tells you how your character goes to the bathroom, too? Sheesh! Look, it's either D&D, or I walk."

 

(heavy sigh) "Okay, let me get my $200 worth of D&D rulebooks so I can start working on an adventure..."

 

"Yeah, whatever. I noticed you've got about $200 of Hero books on your shelf, too. So much for the one book argument."

 

Just show them FATAL first, walk through a bit of it, then, when they're doubting your sanity and fear the game, you can pull out HERO and they'll breathe a sigh of relief and happily play.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Fedifensor

2) Rules-heavy. Oddly, D&D is beginning to emulate HERO in this respect. There's a trend to have a rule (as opposed to a guideline) for everything. Want to pick up something while moving? Suddenly you have to figure out if you can do so while in motion, and apply various modifiers to the roll. Heaven forbid you want to do something like peek out from behind a wall, fire a gun, and slip back behind the wall before the bad guys can get a bead on you...

 

You must never have played 1st Edition D&D. Expecially the Survival Guides. They had rules for figuring out what temprature it would be inside your chainmail vest after walking three hours, then climbing a hill during a light misting rain while carrying a halfling on your shoulders. Then they applied stat modifiers appropriatly.

 

If anything, Hero was less complicated then the stuff that was out back in the 3rd edition days, and has chosen to refine it's rules set while the rest of the industry has gone mostly rules-light. D&D 3.5 is only complicated if you are used to Storyteller and it's ilk.

[Farkling]

2nd largeset mistake in the world lies in teaching a new RPG system.

(the first blunder is getting involved in a land war in asia )

 

I reply, "Nope. The first 334 pages are rules, and then there is a small (25-page) section on gamemastering and tweaking the rules."

 

"Er, right. So, when are you running D&D...?"

 

"Come on, at least flip through the book..."

 

(flip, flip) "Man, I've seen stereo instructions that are less work to read. Look at pages 106 to 108...three pages to describe how to tie someone up?"

 

"Well, it's a flexible system...."

 

"Flexible? Look at all the Combat Modifiers! Is there a rule that tells you how your character goes to the bathroom, too? Sheesh! Look, it's either D&D, or I walk."

 

Give 'em the campaign outline and ask what kind of superheroes thay want to play and what kind of world. Have them list the top three-five powers or abilities they want.

Then assemble the characters...taking feedback from the specific players over "cans and Cant's" for the startup game.

 

The power of the HERO stuff is the "build anything" concept.

Run a high level fantsy if you must (Belgariad, Exalted, Arabian Nights, High End Conan, Simon Green style fantasy, Recluce, Wheel of Time), all those can be simulated in the HERO system as a high level supers-type fantasy game. Hell, run a Forgotten Realms level HERO game.

 

And if they will only play DnD system and refuse to even TRY to broaden their minds, let 'em walk and play the new Lord of the Rings RPG (surely the D20 is out for it by now...).

 

Or my favorite solution is as follows::

 

Look, it's either D&D, or I walk.

 

THUMP...

THUMP...

THUMP!

Here's the basic books you need on loan. Let us know when the campaign is ready to play. We'll be playing cards and board games while you set it up, or trying this HERO game.

Place write up for world on table, including blanks for player input on the world

[Alibear]

Me too.

 

I GM Hero but am happy to play anything what's it gonna be?

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Perhaps when the HERO System Sidekick comes out, you can try again with your group. 128 pages makes a far softer and less intimidating sound when it hits the table.

LL, depends if it is hardback, and the height it is dropped from, but your point is made . And I'm looking forward to Sidekick.

 

on topic: Yamo, as others have said, Gaming is a hobby and should be fun, if is is not longer fun then why play? If whatever system you use brings the fun factor up do it.

 

You aren't gonna loose the friends here just because you're now playing a different game. You can still contribute to HERO discussions, offering advice on ways to build things etc.

[Badger]

D&D should be considered a complicated game too. I rmember one of my friends explaining a rule to me one time, cant remember the rule but here is how the conversation basically went:

 

(friends gives detailed explanation, badger's eyes glaze over)

 

Badger: Wouldnt it be easier to just do it this way (badger explains simpler way)

 

Friend: But they dont do it that way

 

Badger: But it would be easier....

 

Friend: But they dont

 

Badger: But...

Friend: No!

[Badger]

In any case though the thing to do maybe make things easier until they get used to it. I would have to know what is confusing to them to think of examples. Depends on the group. As far as getting them to try it. I would basically try to persuade them with the "Just try it one time, if you dont like it then we can go with something else" approach. Course most of the guys I hang out with are math-freaks like me, who actually want rules with most things. But, I guess the thing to remember is you cant expect a man to be able to do Calculus if hasnt taking a math class more complicated than your general arithmetic. If all that makes sense.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Badger

In any case though the thing to do maybe make things easier until they get used to it. I would have to know what is confusing to them to think of examples. Depends on the group. As far as getting them to try it. I would basically try to persuade them with the "Just try it one time, if you dont like it then we can go with something else" approach. Course most of the guys I hang out with are math-freaks like me, who actually want rules with most things. But, I guess the thing to remember is you cant expect a man to be able to do Calculus if hasnt taking a math class more complicated than your general arithmetic. If all that makes sense.

 

I would ask "Just try it for three sessions," because one session of a new game often doesn't work well, then you go and find out why, then you retry it. We're in the midst of that with M&M, we did one game, it's been taking us forever to get back to it but we will, and see how it goes for a couple more games at least, just to get it under our belts. My group has no interest in migrating to M&M (nor do I) but they are cool with me trying it out on them.

[Farkling]

I have ONE math freak in my six superheroes,

 

He is reading the Rule Book in his free time, when he can borrow it from his neighbor. He's fond of White Wolf. I have had him ask me AFTER the games what rule/penalty I asessed in a certain situation. He also kept me up two hours one night after the game askign about flavor powers and just how much it would cost to framework them in his Multipower.

 

The others treat it like DnD...

"I roll against THIS number for my skill check and score under?"

looks at three dice

"Rolling UNDER 14 seems pretty easy with 3 dice...so I'm GOOD at that, right?"

 

We use the Champs THACO table, so they can throw the 3d6 and add OCV....cross index for "I hit a DCV 12"

I was adding range penalties to the target DCV up until recently. Now all but one of them is interested in knowing the penalty before they roll, and applying it themselves. They have the "feel" for the to hit rolls now.

 

The dedicated DnD player (he plays a dwarf, no matter what it is he picks, it fights and looks like a dwart), pretty much described and built a dwarf in Champions. High CV, High DEF, High STR, nothing much else. After a month, he was looking at the depth of two of the amateur (I hesitate to say veteran) HERO players, and was starting to buy an EB. After a game one night, he asked me if there was any way to buy the energy powers faster (he figured it'd take at least 12 more games to get the EB, so sometime next year)...and offered that he would trade his defenses and STR and maybe some of his combat ability for "a few things like this" ... he still has his hyper running, can boost his STR temporarily ... and has a nice Multipower for some EB's and a damage shield (+1 custom mod). He's having a LOT more fun now too.

 

I still think it is ALL in the presentation. Basically I let them describe their actions, and where appropriate, I have clarified my combat (penalties/bonuses) manuevers after the combat. Half the group played with a GM that was lucky if he could hold a combat AND roleplaying in the same session. I got two combats into the second game...and have averaged one combat each game since.

 

I'm a very freeform GM though...

[Vondy]

Hell Yamo - the PBEM game I'm running now doesn't even have a system. The players sent me "vampire characters" (1 Storyteller, 1 Hero Conversion, 1 Gurps Format) and I said: "thanks." I don't even know if the players know the other players are "playing a different game."

 

It won't work for a table top game, but the point is this: if it fits what you are doing, and you're enjoying it, then its the right system - Hero or no.

[Rene]

I think Tri-Stat is a very cool system. But there is something that is true of all systems: the more you play it, the more you notice it's flaws. Tri-Stats's flaws aren't many, but they do exist.

 

1) VERY shitty rules for Mind Combat and Telepathy. That is the system's worst sin.

 

2) Some weird power costs derived from the level system used in the powers. For instance, Cosmetic Shape-Shift and Invisibility to Sight are too cheap for what they do. Flight at high speeds is too expensive, etc.

 

3) "Power Modifiers" have fixed costs. This makes them more attractive for big powers and not so for small powers.

 

4) Attack roll and Defense roll completely unrelated, like in GURPS, creates some weirdness. Thankfully that is easily corrected by the use of some optional rules.

[PCD]

Re: A Crisis of Faith...

 

I really like HERO. A lot. It has nearly everything I need. The only weakness it has, is that it takes a lot of prep time and play resolution is a bit slow. I am thinking about using Tri-Stat and making it a bit better by incorporating the best HERO has to offer, to it...

[tkdguy]

Re: A Crisis of Faith...

 

I used the BESM rules for my last game, which the players liked because of the system being light on mechanics. I want to get them back into playing HERO, but that will be a while, since they found it a bit overwhelming. Maybe after they get used to universal gaming systems I can wean them from BESM and get them used to HERO.

[Gunrunner]

Re: A Crisis of Faith...

 

2nd largeset mistake in the world lies in teaching a new RPG system.

(the first blunder is getting involved in a land war in asia )

 

 

 

Give 'em the campaign outline and ask what kind of superheroes thay want to play and what kind of world. Have them list the top three-five powers or abilities they want.

Then assemble the characters...taking feedback from the specific players over "cans and Cant's" for the startup game.

 

The power of the HERO stuff is the "build anything" concept.

[/i]

 

Well said. One thing that people don't take into account with the Hero System when they criticize it is that all the many rules in the book are all OPTIONAL!!! You can make your game as simple or complex as you want. The only reason Hero has so many rules is to have an objective way of handling every possible situation that can occur, that doesn't mean you have to use them all if they're slowing down the game. You can still can't "wing it" when you want to keep things moving fast and efficiently.

 

I also agree that it is not a good idea trying to explain the Hero system fully to new players. I don't know how sidekick is (I ordered it online), but it seems to address the Hero system's intimidation factor perfectly

 

Even if you don't have sidekick you can just teach your players on a need-to-know basis. For their first characters, Hero is flexible enough where you can create your players' characters just by having them describe in detail what kind of character they want to make. Assure them that once they learn some of the rules, you'll let them make a few tweaks to their characters if they find something in the system they want to apply to their characters.

 

One of the most important things in a rpg is to keep things flowing steadily. If you have to make something up because you don't want to research the exact ruling in the book, then by all means do so

 

At least Hero has the option to find an exact ruling in the book (if that is your desire) as opposed to a newer system where you're forced to make something up because the system doesn't account for how something works.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: A Crisis of Faith...

 

Sidekick is a great solution. I will be running demos using sidekick at a local con. 1 hour to make characters and 1 hour of slugfest.

 

As for prep work, your GMing style largely determines that. I think a lot of people get hung up on "doing things the right way", but don't carry it to the point that your game gets derailed while you try to work things out.

 

Some tips:

1. Use the players as guides. If one character is a ninja master and you attack the group with a ninja master how different is the bad ninja master going to be from the good one? Not very. If the good one is DEX 23 OCV 8 + Martial Arts, STUN 30, 12PD/6rPD you have your villain with 0 prep work. Change the style (UMA has a list of styles) to make it interesting. Make him faster/slower tougher/stronger.

 

2. Evil monster grabs a character and tries to hold him. How strong is the monster? How strong is the character? If it is going to be a challenge, make the monster equal or stronger (but not much, consider if the character pushes). Just make note of how strong so you are consistent when you grab the next character.

 

3. Rely on published stats. Need a giant agressive tough land animal with fire breath? Look up Rhino in the bestiary and add 8d6 EB (Fire) Cone. It's all in how you describe it.

 

4. Prepare your speed chart ahead of time. Either use a spreadsheet with a macro, HeroCombatSimulator, HeroHelper, a combat sheet, or a deck of cards. My group (former Deadlands junkies) love cards. After a couple sessions of the random card system (and people sitting out for actions in a row) everyone now hads a 3x5 card with their phase number and initiative (DEX.INT.COM). When their action is over, they move the card to a discard piile. If they have a held action, the card is face down. In a 4 hour session I can run 2-3 combats of equal challenge, in addition to story and roleplay.

 

5. Force your players to learn the rules. How? Tell them you will do your best and tell them all difficulty modifiers when they make an action. If they want to know how that was done, and possibly challenge them, they have to figure it out. Most HERO mods are easy to apply (slight -1, moderate -2, hard -3). That doesn't mean you have to be 100% right, just mostly right. If you are wrong either it won't matter or they will take the time to learn the rules and then it won't matter cuz you'll be right in the future. I think the greatest subtlety involves invisible targets/attackers and halving of DCV and hit location. Luckilly, there is a simple chart that lists these and once you explain it to the players they will be all over it.

 

6. Don't respond to threads that are nearly 1 year old.

[Misery Lad]

Re: A Crisis of Faith...

 

I need some feedback on this. Now, I love HERO as much as anybody, but lately, I've been a tad conflicted.

 

Recently, I've discovered a free game system called Tri-Stat dX . It was previously featured in games like Big Eyes, Small Mouth and Silver Age Sentinels, but I had ignored the system up until now because of its close association with anime and superheroes, two subjects I despise.

 

 

Tri-Stat has interested me for some time now and a free introduction into it is certainly a good incentive to check it out. However, I followed your link but could find no way to download the document. How exactly do you go about it?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: A Crisis of Faith...

 

http://www.guardiansorder.com

 

Unfortunately their site is down (nice).

 

I have the Tri-Stat dX book sitting right here. I think Tri-Stat is a nice system, but I don't think it has the depth of HERO. It's fast, easy, and pretty comprehensive, but I think it comes down to playing style.

 

If you are looking for light and fast I would point you to Savage Worlds (http://www.greatwhitegames.com/). The supers book is coming out tomorrow. It is a universal system with Fantasy (2 settings), WWII, Vietnam, Supers, and the new Deadlands Reloaded will be in Savage Worlds. It is a lot of fun to play, mechanically and experientially, and I think has more crunch than Tri-Stat plus a lot of flavor. It is my game of choice when not playing HERO. If that's what you are looking for, grab Savege Worlds Test Drive.

 

Personally I want more detail in my regular games, and and only one other system provides that (GURPS). Unfortunately, that other system doesn't handle juiced up nanopunks throwing derelict cars at each other very, um, cinematically (i.e. lots of guacomole after the first throw), so HERO it is.

 

I understand how players can be... it took me a couple of years to get my group to even consider HERO but now that's pretty much all we play. The options can be daunting, but the options are what make it tastey. Just because you have a whole spicerack doesn't mean you must add every spice to your dish. Be selective. Go with sidekick. Use some of the materials produced by HERO, materials from the fans (http://www.killershrike.com/, http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/, http://www.starherofandom.com/h_trekhero/index.php, plus more), or Narosia if you are looking for more fantasy material. There are a lot of options out there. System is important, but I think the whole experience is what will sell it to the players. If they play in an awesome setting with a great story the system will be more transparent than otherwise. What you don't want is the system to poke through at inappropriate times and break the spell -- the system should work, and support any actions the characters take, logically, consistently, and quickly.

[Gadodel]

Re: A Crisis of Faith...

 

I agree with pretty much everything you just said.

[G.W.Lerose]

Re: A Crisis of Faith...

 

6. Don't respond to threads that are nearly 1 year old.

 

 

Hmmm, the challange is on, must now find a thread over a year old to respond to....