Question

[Balabanto]

What do you guys think Jason should have Champions kickstart next?

[Zen Archer]

Re: Question

 

Hard call.

 

A lot of folks around here seem to want the core rules back in print.

 

I get that, but I'm more interested in new material, so I'm more likely to hold out for Darren's Golden Age Champions.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Question

 

I like the idea of a Golden Age or Silver Age Champions.

[Grailknight]

Re: Question

 

Probably should get the core rules back. I would consider soft cover to save costs.

[baronspam]

Re: Question

 

I would agree with getting core rules back in print. Not being able to get a physical copy of the rules, IMHO, is a limiting factor on reaching new players, which is what Hero needs to do to survive. Also, paperback, perfect bound might be good idea, as the cost of the core rules for this game is considerable.

[Christopher]

Re: Question

 

I have no specific interest in new books (lack the money for it anyway).

But I agree that unavailibility of the Core Books in print is simply an unacceptable state.

 

These two are the most important books for HERO* and people who wanted to buy them could not. I can only wonder why they haven't started a Kickstarter yet.

 

 

*Seriously, people not being able to purchase the stuff they want to pruchase (and need to, if they want to start) is the single most bad thing that can happen for a Company with a declining Customer Base.

[phoenix240]

Re: Question

 

I'd like to see a "People with Powers" setting like Heroes, Misfits of Science or Alphas.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Question

 

I would agree with getting core rules back in print. Not being able to get a physical copy of the rules' date=' IMHO, is a limiting factor on reaching new players, which is what Hero needs to do to survive. Also, paperback, perfect bound might be good idea, as the cost of the core rules for this game is considerable.[/quote']

 

To my mind, this raises four distinct issues.

 

The first is the availability of the two core 6e rulebooks for retail purchase. Volume 2 (Combat and Adventuring) is freely available online today, not only at the Hero Store but also on internet juggernauts like Amazon and ebay, and at a discount to the $39.99 MSRP no less. Volume 1 (Character Creation) is less widely available online (at least at anything near the original $39.99 retail price). But damaged copies (for $19.99) and PDFs are still available in the Hero Store. Are there really a financially significant number of people, I wonder, who want to buy these books but who refuse to purchase them online at a discount to their full retail price?

 

The second issue is whether, if these two books were freely available in game stores via a traditional retail distribution network, the Hero System would attract a statistically significant number of new players. Steve Long has said here before that it was essentially impossible for the Hero System to attract a large number of new players, and certainly could not attract enough of them to offset the attrition of current players who move on to other games over time.

 

The third issue is whether the $80 retail price of these two core rulebooks was off-putting to new players, and, relatedly, whether, if they were re-printed in soft cover with B&W interiors, that would save enough on the production cost side to reduce the price of the rulebooks sufficiently. Would $30 each (for a total of $60 for both books) attract more buyers/players? I am skeptical about this proposition, because any interested buyer could go online today and buy these two rulebooks for $60, if they desired. And I am even more skeptical that re-printing these 800 pages of rules in any format could be done in a way that would cost significantly less than $60 retail.

 

The fourth and final issue is whether Kickstarter is an appropriate funding vehicle for the re-printing of the core rulebooks. I suspect (based on absolutely no facts whatsoever, admittedly) that the vast majority of 200-ish people who have supported each of the four Kickstarter projects to date are committed fans of the Hero System who already own the 6e core rulebooks. Would such people still support a kickstarter program to re-print the core rulebooks they already own themselves?

[Christopher]

Re: Question

 

To my mind, this raises four distinct issues.

 

The first is the availability of the two core 6e rulebooks for retail purchase. Volume 2 (Combat and Adventuring) is freely available online today, not only at the Hero Store but also on internet juggernauts like Amazon and ebay, and at a discount to the $39.99 MSRP no less. Volume 1 (Character Creation) is less widely available online (at least at anything near the original $39.99 retail price). But damaged copies (for $19.99) and PDFs are still available in the Hero Store. Are there really a financially significant number of people, I wonder, who want to buy these books but who refuse to purchase them online at a discount to their full retail price?

You calculation has a important flaw:

You ignore the Bundle Price.

 

When you could buy both books seperately for the same price the bundle was offered, there would be no problem. But because Hero Games is out of stock you have to pay more (afaik $20) for the same content. And the price is already rather big.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Question

 

But because Hero Games is out of stock you have to pay more (afaik $20) for the same content. And the price is already rather big.

 

You raise a valid issue, Christopher. But my broader point is that these two core rulebooks are not currently unavailable. Indeed, they are both freely available online right now for a price (including domestic shipping within the United States, at least) significantly less than their combined retail price of $80.

 

Any initiative to re-print either (or both) of those two core rulebooks needs to be considered in light of that fact. The retail distribution channel may have dried up, but that's not synonymous with "now unavailable" in this internet age.

 

And their relatively easy online availability makes me skeptical about the actual degree of unmet demand.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Question

 

I personally don't have a problem with not having physical copies of books. I prefer eBooks anyway. I can always print out parts that I want to be more readily available while ignoring the sections I have no interested in employing. The only issue I have with the PDF's is that I have bought so far is that I wish they were better formatted for my Nook.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Question

 

Barring the rules...I still want to see Lovecraft Hero..or whatever they were going to call it....

[Beast]

Re: Question

 

This might be a time for a single core book like the 4th ed Hero system book at say 30 to 40$

 

I believe that GAC is Darren's baby and cannot wait to see it from Silverback Press

 

Too much stuff has been reprinted stuff or too narrow a focus ,has been what I have seen

If it was covered in 5th ed I can pretty much convert to 6th

 

My vote would be to have something new covered or at least update something from 4th and before that was a good seller

To my mind, this raises four distinct issues.

 

The first is the availability of the two core 6e rulebooks for retail purchase. Volume 2 (Combat and Adventuring) is freely available online today, not only at the Hero Store but also on internet juggernauts like Amazon and ebay, and at a discount to the $39.99 MSRP no less. Volume 1 (Character Creation) is less widely available online (at least at anything near the original $39.99 retail price). But damaged copies (for $19.99) and PDFs are still available in the Hero Store. Are there really a financially significant number of people, I wonder, who want to buy these books but who refuse to purchase them online at a discount to their full retail price?

 

The second issue is whether, if these two books were freely available in game stores via a traditional retail distribution network, the Hero System would attract a statistically significant number of new players. Steve Long has said here before that it was essentially impossible for the Hero System to attract a large number of new players, and certainly could not attract enough of them to offset the attrition of current players who move on to other games over time.

 

The third issue is whether the $80 retail price of these two core rulebooks was off-putting to new players, and, relatedly, whether, if they were re-printed in soft cover with B&W interiors, that would save enough on the production cost side to reduce the price of the rulebooks sufficiently. Would $30 each (for a total of $60 for both books) attract more buyers/players? I am skeptical about this proposition, because any interested buyer could go online today and buy these two rulebooks for $60, if they desired. And I am even more skeptical that re-printing these 800 pages of rules in any format could be done in a way that would cost significantly less than $60 retail.

 

The fourth and final issue is whether Kickstarter is an appropriate funding vehicle for the re-printing of the core rulebooks. I suspect (based on absolutely no facts whatsoever, admittedly) that the vast majority of 200-ish people who have supported each of the four Kickstarter projects to date are committed fans of the Hero System who already own the 6e core rulebooks. Would such people still support a kickstarter program to re-print the core rulebooks they already own themselves?

[Christopher]

Re: Question

 

And their relatively easy online availability makes me skeptical about the actual degree of unmet demand.

So I need to hunt them down online, instead of using the company shop? From my PoV that just looks unprofessional.

 

It should not be that hard for me to give Hero games my money for the prodcuts I want.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Question

 

Kickstarter Projects: Hero System Sourcebooks

Mythic Hero

Hero System Vehicles

The Martial World

Millennium City

Horror Hero

Cyber Hero

Victorian Hero

Profit & Purity (Argent & IHA)

Cthulhu Hero

Time Travel Hero

PRIMUS

Regency Hero

Western Hero

Golden Age Champions

 

 

TheQuestionMan's Sourcebooks Wish List

01.) PRIMUS 6E (The emerging Law Enforcement World meets The Superhero World)

02.) Regency Hero 6E (Shelly has had a long enough break...time to crack the proverbial whip)

03.) San Angelo; City of Heroes 6E (West Coast Campaign Setting)

04.) The Tiger Squad 6E (Adventure & Super Group Sourcebook)

05.) VOICE of Doom 6E (Supervillain Teams and Mastermind)

06.) Terror International 6E (Begining Supergroups Challenging, but not over powering Mastermind)

07.) Strike Force 6E (Aaron already offered to write a Blog. Perhaps the new method of selecting new HERO System Sourcebooks is better.)

08.) Kingdom of Champions 6E (The Stronghold of Magic, Authurian Legend, Celtic Mythology, and Progenitor secrets. Dragon(Mana) Lines.)

09.) Champions Down Under 6E (Working Title Only; Superhumans, the Near Future, meets the Dream Time)

10.) Land of the Rising Sun 6E (Working Title Only; Superhuman, Mecha, Anime, meets Ancient Magics, Spirits, and Gods.)

11.) The Neo Soviet Union 6E (Working Title Only: Superhumans, The Government/Political World, Factions, and Old meeting new.)

 

 

Most important of all Campaign/Adventure Plots, Character Sub Plots, and Alternate Versions as much as settings.

 

 

QM

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Question

 

I would like to add my vote with TheQuestionMan for a vehicle book and a western book.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Question

 

So I need to hunt them down online' date=' instead of using the company shop? From my PoV that just looks unprofessional. It should not be that hard for me to give Hero games my money for the prodcuts I want.[/quote']

 

I might quibble with the adjective 'unprofessional,' but I understand your point, Christopher.

 

From my perspective, the issue is about gauging the extent of unmet demand for these books. And if Book 2 remains available today for sale with the click of a mouse on two of the top English-language websites in the world, and Book 1 remains available for sale (albeit with a damaged cover) on the company website, I suspect the demand for them may be weaker than we fans would hope.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Question

 

I would like to add my vote with TheQuestionMan for a vehicle book and a western book.

 

The "Time Travel Hero" book that was once enumerated on the company's Future release schedule always intrigued me, personally.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Question

 

I like the idea of a Golden Age or Silver Age Champions.

 

klikewise also mikes martial artists

[Sketchpad]

Re: Question

 

As far as Champions goes, I'd like to see the following books:

PRIMUS 6e

Aaron Allston's Strikeforce 6e

Enemies Reborn: Old Enemies with 6e stats and backgrounds (heck, I'd be happy to help on that one )

Champions Team book (including 6e stats for the 4e and 5e Champions, plus some others. Like a history of the team).

Plot Point/Adventure Path books

Scott Heine's West Coast Champions/Protectors city book

 

For Hero in General:

Horror Hero

[Hawknight]

Re: Question

 

Should we have a poll? I vote for Western Hero, revamped Enemies & team Enemies, and Fell's Point from a list written in the last decade.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Question

 

yes a poll would be a good plan

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Question

 

Strikeforce for 6e is a great idea. (I'd even be enthusiastic about a reprint of the hard-to-find 4e version, along with 6e conversions added at the back.)

 

I also remain intrigued by Balabanto's proposed "Imaginary Friends" adventure. As he teased it going back to last summer, I thought the core idea was very original.

[Steve Long]

Re: Question

 

Just a few quick responses from my PoV. Please keep in mind that I'm not speaking officially for Hero Games in anything I say, just for m'self.

 

1. Just to make sure there's no confusion, Golden Age Champions and Silver Age Champions are Darren's projects through his company Silverback Press -- they're not Hero Games projects and wouldn't be things Hero would be Kickstartering.

 

2. I can absolutely sympathize with those of you who'd like to see 6E1 reprinted, but that issue's nowhere near as simple as many of you seem to think. There are many factors that have to be considered, not the least of which is the enormous cost. I don't have any actual figures on hand, but at an educated guess I think that the printing alone (never mind shipping costs) for a color book that size would be at least twice what any Hero Games Kickstarter has raised so far, and quite possibly much more. Even if Hero wanted to Kickstart a new printing of the core rules (and personally I don't think it should), the evidence so far is that Hero Games cannot generate the financial support necessary for a venture of that undertaking through Kickstarter. (And as to the suggestions of making it b&w or softcover -- I think either choice would be a mistake. Having chosen the color hardcover route, the company should stick to it. If it can't print them that way now, it should wait until it can.)

 

3. As to other suggested books, I think it's important for Hero to pay attention to what's been learned in the past six months. The evidence tends to suggest that any given HERO System-related Kickstarter from Hero Games will raise about $15,000 from about 200 backers. That's it. So it can't do any books that are going to cost more than about $13,000 to produce (due to KS's own cut)... and even at that the company would only be breaking even, which isn't any sort of valid long-term plan. It can't even consider large projects that would take multiple months to write and lay out and require a lot of art -- all the evidence tells Hero that its customer base isn't willing to pay for that type of product. It's got to focus either on much smaller products that require relatively little new art, or find some other "hook" that will draw in more backers. So virtually every book that's been suggested in this thread, and certainly all of the "major" ones (Cthulhu Hero, Western Hero, Time Travel Hero, and so on), are more than likely out of bounds.

 

If Hero could get a significant number of ]HERO System[/i] fans to support even one book to the extent that, say, Deadlands fans are supporting DEADLANDS NOIR, that would be a complete game changer. It would give the company all sorts of room to maneuver and plan. But so far all the evidence points to that never happening.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Question

 

I think it's important for Hero to pay attention to what's been learned in the past six months. The evidence tends to suggest that any given HERO System-related Kickstarter from Hero Games will raise about $15' date='000 from about 200 backers. That's it. [/quote']

 

I couldn't agree more, Steve. That 200 number in particular has a lot of 'uncomfortable truth' in it, I think. Only very small subset of the hundreds of people who visit these forums regularly (maybe even daily) backed any of these projects.

 

It's been said here before that some believe a game system only remains 'alive' so long as products continue to be published in support of it. But a mere 200-300 people simply can't sustain an ongoing publishing venture.

 

If I were Hero Games right now, I would look around for anything else to publish that's already been written and laid out (as were "Empress" and "Champions Villains 3"). Only in such a case may the work involved in producing the product be worth the relatively small returns on a Kickstarter of this size, I suspect.

 

In that vein, I wonder whether Aaron Allston retains not only the rights to his "Strikeforce" characters, but also the copyrights to the original 1988 "Strikeforce" publication (including the interior art). I suspect not, unfortunately. But if so, I would think a viable Kickstarter project for Hero Games might be to license from him the right to re-print that 96 page supplement from 1988 in its entirety, and to commission from him some sort of introductory commentary of a few pages. Then perhaps Hero Games could produce 6e stats and append them at the back. (A Google search revealed to me that as far back as 2004 fans were asking Steve about reprinting this supplement. So there does seem to be some long-term demand for this.) And I see from his blog that Aaron Allston will be at Origins this weekend, as, apparently, will Hero Games...

 

Along similar lines, I suspect that there'd be significant interest in a re-print of the very rare/expensive/controversial "Wings of the Valkyrie" adventure for 4e Champions from 1987, one with 6e stats appended at the end. I've never read it myself. But the prices it sells for on ebay and Amazon suggest very significant interest by at least a few people.