Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Ok so we've firmly established that there are some people on either side of the gender line who are shallow. Some who don't take hints, some who don't pick up on signals or hints, and some who are evil.

 

And then there are others who do all those things. But it's still a crapshoot.

And by and large I can totally see why women feel uncomfortable in certain geek domains.

[Hermit]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Ok so we've firmly established that there are some people on either side of the gender line who are shallow. Some who don't take hints, some who don't pick up on signals or hints, and some who are evil.

 

And then there are others who do all those things. But it's still a crapshoot.

And by and large I can totally see why women feel uncomfortable in certain geek domains.

 

What are you trying to do, end the thread with a clear headed summary?

[Cancer]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Well, the thread has achieved some good already. There's some appalling behavior among the male con goers. I don't go to many cons (it's been years since I went to a gaming con, and I've gone as a pro to one local sci-fi con the last two years, and that's it), and I'm not female, so I wasn't aware of how bad it can be.

 

What I don't know is how pervasive the situation is. Are the a**holes numerous enough that every woman at every con has this happen to her? Yes, once is too many; but compare with the inevitable other crime that happens like pickpockets and minor larceny which happens to a few people at cons just like everywhere. I am aware that theft is a crime; I don't do it and I report (or act to interrupt it) if I witness it; the nature of the event is that I haven't seen it at a con (since it's usually an opportunistic thing in sparse quarters). I don't think I see the acts of harassment that make the horror stories, and I am hoping that if I am inadvertently doing a creep-out I hope that is brought to my attention. But ... it may be worse than I think, and I don't hear about it. And that lack of awareness is my real issue.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

What are you trying to do' date=' end the thread with a clear headed summary?[/quote']

 

Yes?

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

29 pages of criticizing geeks for having poor social skills. Huh.

 

Dividing people into groups results in generalizations, by definition. The women criticizing geek culture are making the same mistake as the men who don't show them their comic books. Grouping me in with rude guy at comic book store is doing a disservice to me. And the rude guy at the comic book store. The fact is many people, men and women, are shallow. Many men and women don't know how to deal with other people in anything but a shallow manner. Many people have anger issues or harbor resentment towards others and don't deal with it well.

 

Is it any surprise that the woman with the Kickstarter of "why video games hate women" got a negative overreaction from nerdy guys who like video games on the internet? Breaking news, guys on 4chan post offensive picture. Film at 11. Trying to use this as proof that there's some overriding issue with "geek culture" however, is just as big a problem as the comic book guy saying "women make up 1% of my customers, I'm not spending another moment on this broad, there's a new Penny Arcade I have to read".

[Cancer]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Actually ... and I am saying this without re-reading all of what has gone before ... I think I am more guilty of generalization from the few to the full set than many of the points made by the women posters. My take-away is that there are ugly incidents in gamer culture (even absent the motivated-by-revenge items you note) and that (1) they may go unacknowledged and (2) it's possible to be wholly unaware of them. I don't think I saw any direct general accusations against the population posting here, but I do admit I did a "TL;DR" on some of the linked items.

 

A point I tried to make early on was that early gamer geek (which I choose to be the boardgamers of the 1960s and 70s and the early RPGs in the 70s and early 80s) culture was, in fact, a collective largely formed by social-reject males who had good reason to believe they were ostracized (and among the ostracizers were the girls around them) explicitly because of their hobby of choice. We all know it and we all feel it. That certainly has colored gamer culture.

 

But the painfully sharp gender division has diminished over time, more women are buying stuff out of comics and games and allied genres, and (to pull a line that gets featured in these forums every now and then) I think we male geeks ought to consider saying something like, "I, for one, welcome our new female overlords."

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

29 pages of criticizing geeks for having poor social skills. Huh.

 

Dividing people into groups results in generalizations, by definition. The women criticizing geek culture are making the same mistake as the men who don't show them their comic books. Grouping me in with rude guy at comic book store is doing a disservice to me. And the rude guy at the comic book store. The fact is many people, men and women, are shallow. Many men and women don't know how to deal with other people in anything but a shallow manner. Many people have anger issues or harbor resentment towards others and don't deal with it well.

 

Is it any surprise that the woman with the Kickstarter of "why video games hate women" got a negative overreaction from nerdy guys who like video games on the internet? Breaking news, guys on 4chan post offensive picture. Film at 11. Trying to use this as proof that there's some overriding issue with "geek culture" however, is just as big a problem as the comic book guy saying "women make up 1% of my customers, I'm not spending another moment on this broad, there's a new Penny Arcade I have to read".

 

I will say that perhaps you should read some of those 29pages of comments before you comment.

 

I have participated in many discussion about Video Games and sexism. Most women would love to have a game that features them in positive roles. Allows them equipment choices that don't all look like lingerie and string Bikinis. Has quests that don't reduce women to objects for rape. When I have advocated for those things, a loud minority (which is still a lot of guys) will attack us for wanting these things. They say pretty hateful things up to and including the kind of stuff you saw on Anita S's Kickstarter site.

 

In a convention. Treat us like people who like the things you do. We may be dressing up like Wonder Woman, She Hulk, Bat Girl etc but we are doing that because we are HUGE fans of that character. Not because we want a bunch of guys leering at us, and making sexual comments. Treat us with respect.

 

AGAIN this thread is not to single out any guys that post here. The thread is designed to raise your awareness of this bad stuff happening to women who happen to like your hobbies. Hopefully that awareness will help some of you to shut down the jerks who do participate in this kind of behavior.

 

There have always been women who do Geeky things (ie RPG game, Play Video Games etc). At first there were only a handfull of us, now games like Vampire the Masquerade and World of Warcraft have drawn many more women to these activities. Also the Superhero movies are also drawing in more women to love comics. Also the stigmas about being a woman who likes these kind of things are starting to loosen. So it's time to speak up to help change things for the better so my little (3 year old) niece will have a nice community to participate in when she gets old enough to geek out with her mom and her aunties

[input.jack]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Dang. It wont let me rep Tasha again yet.

[gojira]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Got her.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Me too.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

29 pages of criticizing geeks for having poor social skills. Huh.

 

Dividing people into groups results in generalizations, by definition. The women criticizing geek culture are making the same mistake as the men who don't show them their comic books. Grouping me in with rude guy at comic book store is doing a disservice to me. And the rude guy at the comic book store. The fact is many people, men and women, are shallow. Many men and women don't know how to deal with other people in anything but a shallow manner. Many people have anger issues or harbor resentment towards others and don't deal with it well.

 

Is it any surprise that the woman with the Kickstarter of "why video games hate women" got a negative overreaction from nerdy guys who like video games on the internet? Breaking news, guys on 4chan post offensive picture. Film at 11. Trying to use this as proof that there's some overriding issue with "geek culture" however, is just as big a problem as the comic book guy saying "women make up 1% of my customers, I'm not spending another moment on this broad, there's a new Penny Arcade I have to read".

 

I'd call it more than a negative reaction.

I have a negative reaction to it. Seriously I see the discussion as a one-sided diatribe against my manly bits. Which it is, sadly they have a point. I might not behave badly, but I've seen it. Still, my first instinct is to get defensive. I react badly.

 

I do not threaten a woman on her blog, make a "Game" where the point is to punch her face until it's mush, hack her accounts to say horrible things about her, grope girls at cons, or belittle them in stores. That's beyond acting badly. All of which has happened on not so isolate incidents.

 

I didn't know about half this stuff before this thread. So it's served the purpose of informing me.

 

Casually dismissing it is your right, of course.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

The Internet is a great enabler of bullies, sad to say.

 

I'd love to see a law enforcement effort to track the little bastards down and deal with them.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Dang. It wont let me rep Tasha again yet.

 

yup

[input.jack]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I'd call it more than a negative reaction.

I have a negative reaction to it. Seriously I see the discussion as a one-sided diatribe against my manly bits. Which it is, sadly they have a point. I might not behave badly, but I've seen it. Still, my first instinct is to get defensive. I react badly.

 

I do not threaten a woman on her blog, make a "Game" where the point is to punch her face until it's mush, hack her accounts to say horrible things about her, grope girls at cons, or belittle them in stores. That's beyond acting badly. All of which has happened on not so isolate incidents.

 

I didn't know about half this stuff before this thread. So it's served the purpose of informing me.

 

Casually dismissing it is your right, of course.

 

ARGH! I cant Rep Enforcer either!!

[gojira]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I got him too.

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I will say that perhaps you should read some of those 29pages of comments before you comment.

 

I have participated in many discussion about Video Games and sexism. Most women would love to have a game that features them in positive roles. Allows them equipment choices that don't all look like lingerie and string Bikinis. Has quests that don't reduce women to objects for rape. When I have advocated for those things, a loud minority (which is still a lot of guys) will attack us for wanting these things. They say pretty hateful things up to and including the kind of stuff you saw on Anita S's Kickstarter site.

 

In a convention. Treat us like people who like the things you do. We may be dressing up like Wonder Woman, She Hulk, Bat Girl etc but we are doing that because we are HUGE fans of that character. Not because we want a bunch of guys leering at us, and making sexual comments. Treat us with respect.

 

AGAIN this thread is not to single out any guys that post here. The thread is designed to raise your awareness of this bad stuff happening to women who happen to like your hobbies. Hopefully that awareness will help some of you to shut down the jerks who do participate in this kind of behavior.

 

There have always been women who do Geeky things (ie RPG game, Play Video Games etc). At first there were only a handfull of us, now games like Vampire the Masquerade and World of Warcraft have drawn many more women to these activities. Also the Superhero movies are also drawing in more women to love comics. Also the stigmas about being a woman who likes these kind of things are starting to loosen. So it's time to speak up to help change things for the better so my little (3 year old) niece will have a nice community to participate in when she gets old enough to geek out with her mom and her aunties

 

I did read some of them. And then I stopped.

 

There are guys who don't know how to behave. Some of those guys are nerds. Some of them are not. Anywhere you go, you will have to deal with this. Go to a bar, there will be a guy there to leer at you. Go to work, there will be a guy there who will leer at you. Go to a male-dominated location, such as a comic convention, there will be a guy who will leer at you.

 

There are guys who are sexist. Some of those guys are nerds. Some of them are not. You post something they see as insulting to their hobby and they will respond. Of course, there are millions of nerds out there who didn't post photoshopped pictures. There are millions of nerds who didn't make a "punch the woman in the face" game. Had she drawn the wrath of Pittsburgh Steelers fans, she'd have probably gotten a similar reaction. Had she targeted fans of country music, she'd have probably gotten a similar reaction.

 

Look at all the hateful things you see about Barack Obama. Shake your head and say "oh those mean Republicans show no respect to our President". Now realize that I saw that same crap posted for 8 years about George W. Bush. And I shook my head and said "oh those mean Democrats show no respect to our President". If you feel yourself start to justify any of them ("Well he's really dumb..." or "But he invaded Iraq...") then realize you're part of it too. Realize that people on the internet say mean things.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]45054[/ATTACH]

 

Somehow this pic did not provoke the same reaction from you as the ones responsible for this thread. I have not been sexist in this thread. I have simply said that some people don't know how to act in society. I'm sure there are nerds who make you uncomfortable from time to time. I am sure there are guys who leer at you in your Squirrel Girl outfit or whatever it is that you wear. I am sure that these guys don't look like George Clooney and probably don't fill out their Superman costume very well. You probably don't want them leering at you. I understand that. My response is... deal with it. You're a grown up. Women do the same damn thing to men but they try and justify it and say it's okay. I don't judge all women on the basis of the skanks, bitches and hoes.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I did read some of them. And then I stopped.

 

Realize that people on the internet say mean things.

 

You're a grown up. Women do the same damn thing to men but they try and justify it and say it's okay. I don't judge all women on the basis of the skanks, bitches and hoes.

 

Casual dismissal noted. Longwinded defense of casual dismissal snipped. Yeah some people say mean things and there are mean girls out there, congratulations on pointing that out.

And yeah, the internet is a big place. But of course the discussion was about game shops, conventions, and face to face interactions as well.

 

So other than acting as defensive (which is totally ok, as I said I get that way too) what would you like to contribute to the discussion?

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

A 3 word response to 4 solid paragraphs and a picture with a monkey? Casual dismissal, indeed.

 

I know how the NGD board works. I've been here for years. Disagreeing with a popular poster is tantamount to heresy. Especially if it's a cute chick (or someone pretending to be a cute chick... or two cute chicks). Yuppers! But my points are valid. Sexism exists, yes. And I'm sure you'll run into it in a hobby that is still 95% male and 80% virgin. Being upset because you were stared at by the Horny Adolescent Club and they're yucky is something a high school girl would do. If someone treats you rudely and without respect, be upset with them, not every guy with a Batman shirt.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Well, I am pretty cute.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

However, long winded also doesn't necessarily mean well thought out. Your points are popular, not sure I'd call them valid.

I'm pretty certain the women in the discussion aren't talking about a kid in a batman teeshirt looking at them.

 

They're talking about being trreated as morons by the male geeks because of their fem-parts. The oggling is secondary, until it become harassment. But again, you are just trying to evoke my white knight reflex, which is cool enough I suppose.

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

However, long winded also doesn't necessarily mean well thought out. Your points are popular, not sure I'd call them valid.

I'm pretty certain the women in the discussion aren't talking about a kid in a batman teeshirt looking at them.

 

They're talking about being trreated as morons by the male geeks because of their fem-parts. The oggling is secondary, until it become harassment. But again, you are just trying to evoke my white knight reflex, which is cool enough I suppose.

 

Some of what they're talking about is being treated as morons by males, some of it is being ogled, some of it is people posting mean pictures. There's been just about every kind of complaint possible listed at one point or another in this thread, either by a poster here or by a linked article. But again, so what? There's anecdotal evidence that some men in some regions don't treat women well. Stop the presses. It happens in reverse all the time as well, women treating men like they're complete idiots when we venture into their territory.

 

So let's turn this around. Let's see why the guy might be this way.

 

There's a good deal of territorialism in this world. "This is my place. It is not for you. Stay out." For some nerdy guys that's the comic book shop. It's the same reason guys don't get invited to baby showers. It's why women have Girls' Night Out. For some guys the game store isn't just about a hobby, it's about male bonding. For guys who feel constantly discriminated against by women, the nerd store and online games are the last places they have left. So you're a nerdy guy. You don't get laid. Women don't want to talk to you. When you approach them and ask them out, they say no. Every interaction you have with women is disappointing. So you go to the game store because you don't want to be Mortimer Snerd anymore. You want to be SkullAssassin the Barbarian. You want to adventure with your buddies and lay waste to entire kingdoms. It's how you deal with the fact that women in real life call you "Stinky Mortimer". Now a girl shows up and she wants to play. She doesn't want to date you. She just wants you to show her how to play. She wants to dress like Wonder Woman but she doesn't want you to look at her tits. She wants to play her elf priestess but she doesn't want SkullAssassin, defiler of women and father of a thousand bastard sons, to try and get in her pants. She wants to take away your game. Now you aren't having fun anymore because all your real life problems are suddenly reflected in your escape world.

 

Think that's not a real issue? Think again. There's a reason the game store smells the way it does.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Some of what they're talking about is being treated as morons by males, some of it is being ogled, some of it is people posting mean pictures. There's been just about every kind of complaint possible listed at one point or another in this thread, either by a poster here or by a linked article. But again, so what? There's anecdotal evidence that some men in some regions don't treat women well. Stop the presses. It happens in reverse all the time as well, women treating men like they're complete idiots when we venture into their territory.

 

So let's turn this around. Let's see why the guy might be this way.

 

There's a good deal of territorialism in this world. "This is my place. It is not for you. Stay out." For some nerdy guys that's the comic book shop. It's the same reason guys don't get invited to baby showers. It's why women have Girls' Night Out. For some guys the game store isn't just about a hobby, it's about male bonding. For guys who feel constantly discriminated against by women, the nerd store and online games are the last places they have left. So you're a nerdy guy. You don't get laid. Women don't want to talk to you. When you approach them and ask them out, they say no. Every interaction you have with women is disappointing. So you go to the game store because you don't want to be Mortimer Snerd anymore. You want to be SkullAssassin the Barbarian. You want to adventure with your buddies and lay waste to entire kingdoms. It's how you deal with the fact that women in real life call you "Stinky Mortimer". Now a girl shows up and she wants to play. She doesn't want to date you. She just wants you to show her how to play. She wants to dress like Wonder Woman but she doesn't want you to look at her tits. She wants to play her elf priestess but she doesn't want SkullAssassin, defiler of women and father of a thousand bastard sons, to try and get in her pants. She wants to take away your game. Now you aren't having fun anymore because all your real life problems are suddenly reflected in your escape world.

 

Think that's not a real issue? Think again. There's a reason the game store smells the way it does.

 

Guess what things are changing. It's the nature of the world. Sorry that some women treated you badly. If you turn off that anger some and start to treat women like people you might find some geek woman who is your match.

 

Now a girl shows up and she wants to play. She doesn't want to date you. She just wants you to show her how to play.

 

Most of the women gamers I know of actually know how to play. They want to have fun in the rpg too. You may be surprised at how many of them enjoy a rampage across the continent. She doesn't know the girls who called you "Stinky Mortimer" (though hopefully you take showers and wear deodorant so the stinky part doesn't apply). To her you are just another player at the table. She wants to play her bad ass Half Ogre Ranger who shoots arrows the size of small trees out of her Longbow and one shots T-Rexes at 1000 yards. She doesn't care about your issues or history, unless you do something to make her aware of it. She also isn't there to pick up guys. She also hopes that the guy who plays Skull Assassin would respect that rape isn't a good subject. esp since She probably has friends who have been raped or worse (or perhaps she has been a victim of that crime herself).

 

Most game stores and Comic Stores that I shop in and have shopped in smell like a regular store. Perhaps with a more book and ink smell, but still just a store. Most store owners treat me quite well. esp once they talk to me and realize that I have been a gamer for a VERY long time. That I not only have money, but I will spend it if they treat me well. That I am a loyal customer that tells her friends what stores are good places to shop and what ones aren't so good. It's been awhile since I have run into the stereotypical Geek who seems to think that Hygiene is for other people.

 

Oh and I know lots of nerdy guys that found true love and have regular relationships with Women (or whomever they are attracted to). There's a bunch of great guys here on the boards that are married and some of them have kids. They found the magic formula that attracted that other person. I would imagine that part of it was letting go of any anger toward women(If they had any). Beyond that, I'll let them chime in if they want to supply you with pointers.

 

Also with the exception of Spaces for Abused women, women's spaces tend to be pretty open to guys too. I know of many activities that tend to be women dominated are actually really open to guys who want to learn. Like everything YMMV and there are definitely groups of women who don't want men around, but the great majority are open. Bridal Showers can be as open as the bride wants them to be. I have seen coed Bridal Showers.

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I am not Stinky Mortimer. I've been blessed with, well, a whole bunch of things really. My issues with women tend much more to the "fear of commitment" level than the "I hate you for making fun of me in junior high" level. I do know Stinky Mortimer, however. I've listened to the Stinky Mortimers complain over the years, and I know why they feel the way they do. A dog that has been beaten will bite you, even though you're not the one who beat it. If sexism is any more rampant in the geek community than in other traditionally male arenas, that's why. But the internet is a hive of scum and villainy. Being upset because someone posted mean pictures or left nasty comments? Anonymity has allowed people to say the meanest things they can think of with zero consequences. Don't believe me? Google "I can count to potato".

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

A 3 word response to 4 solid paragraphs and a picture with a monkey? Casual dismissal, indeed.

 

Yeah, the monkey pic (it's an ape, though) really adds gravitas to your arguments.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

A squeaky wheel get the oil. I was brought up to speak up when things aren't right. Unless we all talk about stuff they will never change. Making excuses for bad behavior doesn't make things change. "Stinky Mortimer"(s) really should do whatever it takes to let go of that anger before it changes them into something they don't like.

 

Hell, I know women who were treated like crap by guys in High School. People who are different tend to be treated badly by the majority. It scars you and makes for sensitive spots in the personality. Eventually those go away or if you allow them to they can drive your life and make you a quite unlikeable person.

 

Yeah the Internet is full of jerks who hide behind their Anonymity. Allowing them to be jerks and not speaking out when they are being jerks just enables them. Always stand up to jerks and bullies. This world can and will be a better place if everyone take responsibility for themselves and treat others like they would want to be treated. I am thinking that because of groups like Anonymous that nasty trolling and stalking may become a thing of the past. They already went after one jerk after he got a girl to commit suicide. Also because of a few jerks, some services are thinking about making people post with their real names (ie Facebook).