Suppressing my rage

[Sean Waters]

Here’s something that winds me up: suppress.

 

Suppress in 6e is a Drain variant. What you do, right, is start with Drain and then add ‘costs END’, and you have Suppress.

 

Suppress differs in a number of ways from Drain. Most obviously it is now a constant power. Secondly it costs END…er, but it cost END before. Thirdly it works differently – instead of having a ‘fade rate’ it becomes ‘all-or-nothing’. It does not fade while you maintain it.

 

I absolutely loathe ‘compound modifiers’: they are anathema to my vision of Hero, which is the ability to build what you actually want, not what someone else’s vision of the system should is*.

 

Either Drain and Suppress are sufficiently different that they should be separate powers, or Suppress should be something you can build with Drain+modifiers.

 

*sigh* It IS, Sean, it is Drain + a modifier.

 

No, it bloody isn’t. Costs END does not make powers constant. It does not change the way they work. Costs END is a limitation.

 

*sigh* So, all you are really hacked off about is the name? OK, call it ‘Drain Modifier 1’, and it does the same thing, Happy now?

 

No, I am not: the point is not the label, it is what it actually does. It does good things (“advantages”) and bad things (“limitations”), at the same time. Actually, that is debatable. Drain already costs END, and a power made constant (usually an advantage) that costs END, costs END per phase, so all we have so far is a +1/2 advantage, not a -1/2 limitation. So what do we have left? We have ‘does not fade whilst you maintain it, then goes all at once’. That, in itself is a compound modifier, goddammit! ‘Goes all at once’ is a limitation, doesn’t fade while you maintain it’ is an advantage.

 

Crunch. The problem with all of this, of course, is that we have active points: what you need to think about here is that the overall effect may be less powerful, or no more powerful, but STILL costs more in active points, which makes balancing things difficult. So maybe a separate power after all? Maybe a combination of

 

What to do? What to do? It will take a better man to decide what we should do, but it doesn’t take much of a man at all to tell you what not to do. Right is far harder to spot than wrong. We shouldn’t be doing this.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

*Yes, I know.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

I more or less agree but it doesn't bother me enough to worry about it. If there is a public forum for discussing the next edition I will be right behind you lobbying hard for this to be changed. In the meanwhile, meh.

[gojira]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Hopefully though, 7e is a long ways off. I think 6e has a lot of work to go before the fanbase is large enough again to withstand another rules change.

[The Main Man]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Suppress is not Drain that Costs Endurance; it's Drain that Costs Endurance to Maintain. Let's be accurate at least.

[Tasha]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Suppress is not Drain that Costs Endurance; it's Drain that Costs Endurance to Maintain. Let's be accurate at least.

 

Right which makes the power roll once for effect, and pay end to keep that effect working. ONce you stop paying end. All Drained points come back to full.

 

By making it constant, it allows you to roll once to hit. Then keep rolling the dice each phase for greater effect. Stop paying end, the points fade as per the fade rate.

 

Which is why the first is a limitation and the second is an advantage.

[Ndreare]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

I disagree. Compound modifiers are not only okay with my group, i have used them for defining special effects. Such as all magic has a , limitation called Magic, which includes several other modifiers but they belong together and should not be included in active point calculations. This is how we treat most talents as well. Simply writing the name of the talent rather then the whole description.

[psyber624]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

I personally think Suppress should be a different power as well (although not as vehemently as Sean). When trying to build a number of powers using suppress I often run into issues getting it to work "just right" because of the odd nature of it (it isn't its own power, it is a power bought with a unique limitation that changes the way the power works). For instance there are many instances where I think a 0 End Suppress would be called for, which is not normally allowed RAW. Especially when you are talking about "Suppression Fields" that cover an area. Also, it states that you cannot apply Costs Endurance to Activate to the power, and RAW does not even state that the GM can permit this if he wishes. However it is easy to come up with examples of effects where this would be appropriate. Why can't we build a power like this? I understand that there are balance considerations but in nearly every other case this is handled with increased points costs or Caution or Stop Sign's, but because of the way Suppress is defined this we cannot do for some reason. It seems to be counter to the design philosophy of HERO.

 

For an example power that I have considered, i have a Gravity Manipulator. I want to create a gravity field, surrounding my character, with a number of special effects. One of those is a Suppression Field on Running, Strength, Leaping and Flight to represent the effects increased gravity has on those abilities. I envision this power as requiring effort while I change the gravity in an area, but not requiring effort once the gravity has been changed. It is definitely a suppress, not a drain, as your abilities return to normal as soon as you leave the affected area (no fade rate). However, RAW, I can't build this. I can either build it to cost END the entire time, or (with GM's permission) to never cost END (and the reasonably common way to regain is to leave the affected AOE.)

 

And all of this is because instead of giving Suppress its own power entry, it is defined as "Drain that Costs Endurance (to maintain) (-1/2)".

[Greywind]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

The RAW doesn't need to state, because the GM can allow whatever he wishes in his game.

[Tasha]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

My Opinion: A power should only be removed from the ruleset if replacing said power with others doesn't make writeups harder. in 5e we lost Regeneration and it was a PITA of a handwaving writeup using a "Special" form of healing that was cumulative and blah blah. I had to crack open the book everytime I wanted someone to have regen. Losing instant change and handwaving it by using Transform was annoying too. Never really understood how removing it helped the rules.

 

In 6e we lost Force Field and Armor, but Resistant protection does the same job and is just as easy to use as the others.

 

We lost Transfer and gained a clunky way to replace it with Drain and Aid. It shouldn't be been removed IMHO.

 

Suppress probably should have been left alone as well. It worked well enough, it made things like Anti Magic Fields easy to do. Now you use drain and a Limitation to do the same thing.

 

Balance is Important, but Making powers easy to find/use is also very important. If a new player wants to write up a power that allows clothing change in a 0 phase, then they have to somehow know that it's done with a Stopsign power that's called Transform. Not user friendly.

 

Perhaps in 2020 when we start to work on 7th edition the authors will keep new players in mind and make choosing powers as user friendly as possible.

[Lucius]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Perhaps in 2020 when we start to work on 7th edition the authors will keep new players in mind and make choosing powers as user friendly as possible.

 

There seems to be a general bias - no, not a bias, an assumption that there is no such thing as a new player, that Hero can't or won't or for some reason shouldn't recruit. Or that any new players will always have experienced players there to show them the system.

 

 

 

What I want to know is, why are we discussing Drain and Suppress in isolation from Aid and Boost?

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary puts in for a Transfer

[Christopher]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

For an example power that I have considered, i have a Gravity Manipulator. I want to create a gravity field, surrounding my character, with a number of special effects. One of those is a Suppression Field on Running, Strength, Leaping and Flight to represent the effects increased gravity has on those abilities. I envision this power as requiring effort while I change the gravity in an area, but not requiring effort once the gravity has been changed. It is definitely a suppress, not a drain, as your abilities return to normal as soon as you leave the affected area (no fade rate). However, RAW, I can't build this. I can either build it to cost END the entire time, or (with GM's permission) to never cost END (and the reasonably common way to regain is to leave the affected AOE.)

 

And all of this is because instead of giving Suppress its own power entry, it is defined as "Drain that Costs Endurance (to maintain) (-1/2)".

A few points regarding that:

A simple approach is to drain STR. When the STR drops low enough you can't run at full speed (encumberance penalties from your own weight) or might be unable to move at all.

Another way is Telekinesis, AoE. You literally press the people down, thus countering thier STR. A good example seems to be the Avengers fight against Graviton

 

 

I see the following elements in gravitons attack:

He has to target each "group" of heroes that attacks him seperately.

Once his concentration is disrupted, the power fades.

The hulk was literally able to "break out" of the power (when he first started punching of the first wave of containers, he seem not hindered at all).

All these elements are perfectly covered by Telekinesis, Area of Effect used to Grab the targets.

 

About "sticking to an area instead of a person":

I would consider that a +0 Advantage for a Supress. It does affect people/effects getting into the area, but it also means the enemy is back to full power once he moves out (asuming of course you don't do stuff like megaarea on the same power or this would water down the effect appropirately [more area, less dice/effect to use]).

 

 

About Seans original question:

You could alsways make Supress to a +0 modifier.

 

What I want to know is' date=' why are we discussing Drain and Suppress in isolation from Aid and Boost?[/quote']

I think it is people being "hung up" on certain special effects, like the gravity field.

But I agree that there is a problem for powers working similar to the D&D Spell "Antimagic Field":

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Antimagic_Field

(small note about term "Summoned creature": the creature is held by the spell "in this world" - similar to hero summon - hence surpress works against it. The same creature aquired by other means [follower, came to this realm on own power, the much more difficulty Planar Ally spell series http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Planar_ally] would stay.)

 

But I don't see how this can not be simply done by saying "sticks to area instead of people" for +0. You might not get the "absolute" effect of the original (it depends how many AP your power is allowed to have and how weak yoru opponents are) but it would work.

[psyber624]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Telekinetic STR or Drain STR are definitely abilities that I would consider adding to his repertoire but not sure how either would affect flight or leaping and I believe (i could be wrong) that using TK would require me to use a Grab Maneuver to affect them as well (allowing them to use strength to enhance their flight, which seems odd to me.) The drain Flight was to simulate that they are trying to move more weight (a topic that HERO handwaves, but I can pull up FUZION:Power Core for very comparable ruleset to add to a campaign that covers the effect of added weight on Flight.) Of course this is HERO, either solution works, it just depends on exactly the special effects you are trying to represent. (And it still, IMO, doesn't change the fact that Suppress should be it's own power, Boost as well while we are at it)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Getting a little off the original topic...

 

re: Gravity Manipulation

 

The main issue with using Telekinesis to model it is that TK is at its core STR at Range. As such, a valid defense to it is having a high STR. If Graviton (in the Avengers: Earth's Mightiest animated appearance) had only been facing the Hulk it wouldn't have even been a contest. He just* lifts him into the air. Hulk's only attack option would be a hand-slap and G's forcefield seemed more than up to the challenge considering what it did protect him from in that episode.

 

* This is the trick though. To (Grab) and lift Hulk with Telekinesis the HERO power it would need to have a STR higher than the Hulk or be built with the NND Advantage (the latter option has been ruled illegal by Steve L.). And while it is arguable that Graviton's ability could generate a TK STR to rival that of the Hulk (he did lift the island of Manhattan in the episode) not all characters who should be able to lift the Hulk should also have to defeat his personal STR (example: Storm from the X-Men). She can generate winds that can easily lift Hulk's mass. The only way he could resist being lifted into the air though would be to grab something anchored to the ground (like a telephone pole or similar). The only way to model such an effect via RAW would be to use Flight with the Usable as Attack Advantage.

 

re: Drain to represent Gravity effects.

The main issue I have with this is how it interacts with Power Defense. Flight UAA used to push a character into the ground is much simpler imo since it just becomes a movement vs. movement contest for the character to move from the spot they are on. It also explains how Hulk was able to escape Graviton's initial trap. He Leaped out of it (he can leap miles at a time).

 

just my 2 nickels

[Christopher]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

How STR-Drain helps:

From the rules about 0 STR (6E1 42) "At STR 0, halve the character’s Running, Leaping, Swimming, Swinging, Tunneling, and Flight based on muscle power (such as most types of wings). The GM may require the character to succeed with STR Rolls just to stand up, walk, and perform similar mundane exertions. At STR 0, halve the character’s DCV." There are more effects described in the rules.

 

How TK-STR AoE helps:

Yes you have to make a Grab. But AoE TK allows you to "hit" multiple foes at the same time and the only attack roll you need is against the area (DCV 3). And as long as the "limb" you grab is the torso and all ranged attackers land "face down", nobody will be able to attack you.

To keep him grabbed, you need a high STR. But how often are Brick types "Grabbed" at range in this manner, only to break out in the next round in the Soruce Material? Too often to count.

And even just being grabbed already reduces your defenses considerably.

 

Some notes regarding normal Gravity and TK:

By the Rules normal Earth Gravity is considered identical to a 10 STR Telekinesis, "Only to pull objects down". In fact that is how Artificial Gravity generator for Superhero Starbases are built (and I guess for Star Hero Bases too).

Even more interesting is that both the example Star Base and the Underwaterbase in Champions 6E have a "Cell Block Artificial Gravity Pinner" built as: 40 STR Telekinesis, Area of Effect, Only to pull objects Straight Down (-1).

 

Getting a little off the original topic...

 

re: Gravity Manipulation

 

The main issue with using Telekinesis to model it is that TK is at its core STR at Range. As such, a valid defense to it is having a high STR.

Yes, like the Hulk was stronger than Graviton when that one tried to keep him on the ground...

 

* This is the trick though. To (Grab) and lift Hulk with Telekinesis the HERO power it would need to have a STR higher than the Hulk or be built with the NND Advantage (the latter option has been ruled illegal by Steve L.). And while it is arguable that Graviton's ability could generate a TK STR to rival that of the Hulk (he did lift the island of Manhattan in the episode) not all characters who should be able to lift the Hulk should also have to defeat his personal STR (example: Storm from the X-Men). She can generate winds that can easily lift Hulk's mass. The only way he could resist being lifted into the air though would be to grab something anchored to the ground (like a telephone pole or similar). The only way to model such an effect via RAW would be to use Flight with the Usable as Attack Advantage.

Sorry, but not correct. You only need STR that is high enough to lift the target. Not one STR more. And you need to hit the target (at the torso) to move it.

You need a higher STR to keep the Target grabbed.

But every time a non-flying brick is grabbed and lifted in the Source Material the foe either follows up with an attack (that the brick type can defense normally against) or the target breaks free. Every. Single. Time. That looks like too me like the Source Material shows the same limitations in such powers as the game material.

 

re: Drain to represent Gravity effects.

The main issue I have with this is how it interacts with Power Defense.

I doubt that it a problem of how power-defense interacts with drain. It's a problem how Power Defense works at all, wich is somewhat "counter-intuitive". And making the STR drain a NND (+0; negated by Gravity Powers) is a simple solution for that.

But anyway I think TK, AoE to Grab the torso is the simple solution.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

And making the STR drain a NND (+0; negated by Gravity Powers) is a simple solution for that.

But anyway I think TK, AoE to Grab the torso is the simple solution.

 

Simple but illegal according to the Rules FAQ:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=telekinesis+nnd&dateString=

 

[h=3]Q: Can a character apply the No Normal Defense Advantage to Telekinesis, and if so, what effect does this have?[/h] A: Characters cannot apply NND to Telekinesis.

 

 

That pretty much contradicts all the TK as Gravity examples in the books as well. Flight w/UAA is a rules legal way around this and UAA already requires the choice of a defense at ability creation just like NND.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

So, let me get this straight. People have a problem with Suppress in 6e because it doesn't work like 5e?

 

Why not just use the power from 5e? It's not like Steve Long's going to come to your house personally and tell you that you're doing it wrong. Running in 4e or 5e, but you really like a power in 6e? Used to be, lots of GMs wouldn't think twice about borrowing that power.

 

Same with the NND on TK. If the GM says it's okay, who cares if someone not in the group doesn't like the build?

 

Sure, it's handy to have Steve Long to answer rules questions, but in the end, he's describing a certain version of Hero. If that doesn't match the stories you're trying to tell, you're free to use the toolkit another way.

 

JoeG

[psyber624]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Ternaugh, true, but that leads to a number of issues. First, not everyone has access to all of the previous versions (I, for instance, have only 6th Ed.) so I can't easily reference an old version of the power. Second, it adds complication to an already complicated system if you are pulling different rules from various editions. Third, it introduces another element of potential conflict in a group. Everyone in the group has to be on the same page.

 

Now, none of those issues are in any way intended to represent that it is IMPOSSIBLE to simply make it work like we want it to. I think most people agree that this is just a game and the HERO system itself encourages you to take what you want and modify the rest. Some of us believe, however, that if a future version of the game was ever printed, it would be an improvement to have the power work on its own, instead of having a modifier that changes the way a DIFFERENT power works in order to allow us to have the 2nd power. While Drain and Suppress are similar, they have too many differences for a simple modifier to one to accurately manifest them. IMO it would be like eliminating Killing Attack from the game and introducing a +2 Modifier to Blast that makes Blast work like KA does now, changing how damage is assigned, changing the defense, etc all with a single modifier.

[Christopher]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Simple but illegal according to the Rules FAQ:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=telekinesis+nnd&dateString=

 

 

 

That pretty much contradicts all the TK as Gravity examples in the books as well. Flight w/UAA is a rules legal way around this and UAA already requires the choice of a defense at ability creation just like NND.

That might be so, but how does this affect STR Drain (wich you cited)?

 

Also, how does the prohibition of NND on TK prevents artificial Gravity from working?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

I think 5e Suppress was perhaps more straightforward, but I see nothing wrong with the 6e Suppress. The limitation "Costs END to maintain" could be phrased better, or broken down into two modifiers "Costs END to maintain (-¼)" and "Suppressed points return instantly when Suppress shuts off (-¼)" for clarity, but that is a lot of extra verbage.

 

Also, RAW state you can buy Suppress with 0 END, but if you do, you lose the "Cost END to maintain" limitation, so you can still build that Anti-magic field no problem, you just pay a few more points for it. Granted that is a bit clunkier than a 5e Suppression field, but still workable.

 

That said, I think Suppress should come back as its own power in 7e (whenever that may be). You can make it work as a modified Drain, but there are too many special exceptions which make it tricky and confusing in a way that the 5e Suppress wasn't.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Hello. Couple of points I'd like to chime in with...

 

Yes, Drain + Costs END (to maintain) is Suppress in 6e, which means that we are adding Costs END in a non-standard fashion, which is an even bigger crime against humanity than compound modifiers.

 

It is still a compound modifier anyway because it does two things. Three things:

 

1. Allows you to maintain the power so that the affected points do not face (advantage),

2. Costs END while you maintain it (but that is how powers you maintain work anyway, so that is largely irrelevant, and should not be the focus of the modifier), and

3. Returns all affected points when the maintain ends rather than allowing them to fade (limitation, but not much of one).

 

If nothing else it lacks clarity and elegance. Personally I would argue that the ability to maintain the fade is more useful than losing all points when you stop is a limitation. You only have to hit the bugger once and the points go away for as long as you can make them stay away.

 

The issue with not being able to build a 0 END version of suppress has already been addressed, but is worth mentioning again: again it is a detraction from the fundamental principle (to me) that you build what you imagine.

 

Finally, and I have to say this contractually, I suspect that trying to draw conclusions from an episode of Avengers v Graviton is an exercise in futility, as clearly the author has little of no grasp of even comic book physics* OR they are not gravity powers, you're just assuming that from the name. For example someone with the ability to reverse gravity would have very little trouble defeating Hulk, if you think about it.

 

 

 

*Or decent scriptwriting

[Christopher]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Hello. Couple of points I'd like to chime in with...

 

Yes, Drain + Costs END (to maintain) is Suppress in 6e, which means that we are adding Costs END in a non-standard fashion, which is an even bigger crime against humanity than compound modifiers.

 

It is still a compound modifier anyway because it does two things. Three things:

 

1. Allows you to maintain the power so that the affected points do not face (advantage),

2. Costs END while you maintain it (but that is how powers you maintain work anyway, so that is largely irrelevant, and should not be the focus of the modifier), and

3. Returns all affected points when the maintain ends rather than allowing them to fade (limitation, but not much of one).

Crime against humanity? Really? Aren't you a little bit overdramatizing the effect of a Rulesconstruct in a Roleplaying gamesystem here?

 

 

As is see it the limitation of having to maintain the power (at costs equal to what it would cost to fire it every, single phase) + the need to be not knocked out or stunned to maitain it + the need to not switch out the frameworkslots (if it is part of a Framework) is equal to the slight benefit of not having to deal with fading.

Many people here have told time and again, that combats are short. Few even go a even a minute (5 Turns). So a fading of 5/turn would be logically not that severe. Wich in turn means stopping that fading is not that big an advantage, compared to the drawback of loosing [END cost time SPD] END per Turn. And loosing it in total when you are even as much as Stunned.

I personally would prefer the fade rate over supress every day of the week. That shows to me that it is indeed a limitation.

 

Finally' date=' and I have to say this contractually, I suspect that trying to draw conclusions from an episode of Avengers v Graviton is an exercise in futility, as clearly the author has little of no grasp of even comic book physics* OR they are not gravity powers, you're just assuming that from the name. For example someone with the ability to reverse gravity would have very little trouble defeating Hulk, if you think about it.[/quote']

1. It has been clearly stated (Multiple times from Multiple Sources) that he does indeed controll gravity.

2. He did threw Ironman into Low Earth Orbit (despite him trying to resist)

3. He clearly was not above killing (he tried to destroy the entire city, residents and all).

4. Yet he did not even seemed to consider throwing the hulk into outer space.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Crime against humanity? Really? Aren't you a little bit overdramatizing the effect of a Rulesconstruct in a Roleplaying gamesystem here?

 

No.

 

 

As is see it the limitation of having to maintain the power (at costs equal to what it would cost to fire it every, single phase) + the need to be not knocked out or stunned to maitain it + the need to not switch out the frameworkslots (if it is part of a Framework) is equal to the slight benefit of not having to deal with fading.

Many people here have told time and again, that combats are short. Few even go a even a minute (5 Turns). So a fading of 5/turn would be logically not that severe. Wich in turn means stopping that fading is not that big an advantage, compared to the drawback of loosing [END cost time SPD] END per Turn. And loosing it in total when you are even as much as Stunned.

I personally would prefer the fade rate over suppress every day of the week. That shows to me that it is indeed a limitation.

 

I can see why you might think that, but then it all rather depends. Points return PS12, which is not the same as per turn, especially as combat starts on segment 12. Realistically, if you are KO'd or stunned then you have probably lost the fight anyway. Also it depends on the build and effects. Bear in mind that people pay +1/4 to move the fade rate up the time table one point. Also I do not know how it is supposed to work now, but IIRC, separate adjustments ALL returned at 5/turn, even if they were from the same source, making stacking possible but problematic. That might have changed though, I'm not sure.

 

Also the biggest single problem with this build (apart from the compound nature of the modifier, which I have already clearly stated, is of such seriousness that we might as well euthanise the planet rather than live with it), is that you can't build a 0 END version because the power automatically costs END because of the modifier and you can't have Costs END and Costs No END on the same build. Oh, and spending END is how you maintain powers that you want to maintain (like Mind Control), so either we are creating an inconsistent rule or it isn't actually any kind of limitation at all, it is an advantage (can be maintained +1/4 - based on your observation that combat rarely exceeds a minute and changing the fade rate to 5/minute would cost +1/4). In either event you best keep me away from that big red button.

 

 

1. It has been clearly stated (Multiple times from Multiple Sources) that he does indeed control gravity.

2. He did threw Ironman into Low Earth Orbit (despite him trying to resist)

3. He clearly was not above killing (he tried to destroy the entire city, residents and all).

4. Yet he did not even seemed to consider throwing the hulk into outer space.

 

Bad scripting and poor grasp of physics then. I was trying to be generous.

 

If he threw IM into orbit, we should look at that. Gravity affects the weight of an object, and the force is proportional to the ass of the object gravity is affecting. So, in order to be able to move IM he has to be able to be able to generate enough 'force' to counter the strength of the IM armour. IM armour can lift between 1 and nearly 200 tons, depending on which version he has on. Let's say this one allows him to fly and carry 40 tons. Let's say 10 tons in fact, that should be easy enough. So, 100kg IM (say) v 10 tons is a factor of about 100. i.e. to make a 100kg mass 'weigh' 10 tons, you need about 100G. OK, I'm not great at physics either, but 100G is a hell of a lot.

 

Thor is even stronger than IM and he was gravtied (if is really is gravity) back against a building*: that probably needed about 500G. Apply 500G to Giant Man who is not proportionally much stronger than a normal human, and, well, he'd crumple and all his bones would snap.

 

I know, I know, fantasy, not reality. Mind you all the best fantasy only departs from reality when it has to.

 

 

 

 

 

*Also why did the building not crumple: 2 or 3G would probably be enough to do that. And how did a window and a bit of steel frame stop a 50+ton Thor?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Crime against humanity? Really? Aren't you a little bit overdramatizing the effect of a Rulesconstruct in a Roleplaying gamesystem here?

 

It's called hyperbole.

[Christopher]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

Realistically' date=' if you are KO'd or stunned then you have probably lost the fight anyway.[/quote']

You ever heard of Characters being in a team? You know, with fighting togehter and all that? Because that is the way most people play Hero, as far as I heard.

And if that Brick suddenly is back to 60 STR makes a huge difference for the rest of your team.

 

Also the biggest single problem with this build (apart from the compound nature of the modifier' date=' which I have already clearly stated, is of such seriousness that we might as well euthanise the planet rather than live with it), is that you can't build a 0 END version because the power automatically costs END because of the modifier and you can't have Costs END and Costs No END on the same build. Oh, and spending END is how you maintain powers that you want to maintain (like Mind Control), so either we are creating an inconsistent rule or it isn't actually any kind of limitation at all, it is an advantage (can be maintained +1/4 - based on your observation that combat rarely exceeds a minute and changing the fade rate to 5/minute would cost +1/4). In either event you best keep me away from that big red button.[/quote']

I can't really see how decreased Fade rate makes your point. People pay +1/4 to make the Fade rate a non-issue in Combattime (it is still in storytime). In addtion to the normal advatnages of Drain:

Non need to maintain it or keep is slotted.

 

Supress is still the worser version, except we talk about keeping it up for hours (wich will have limits because of recovery and the need to sleep even if outside a Framework).

 

 

Also, how can't you built a Supress that costs 0 END? The rules (6E1 197) say differently:

"Reduced Endurance: Characters can only buy this Advantage for Suppress with the GM’s permission. Since Suppress is a Drain that Costs Endurance to maintain, by definition it has to cost END. However, the GM could allow a character to buy

Reduced Endurance (½ END; +¼) if desired. If he goes further and lets a character buy Suppress to cost 0 END, then the value of Costs Endurance (to maintain) goes down to -0, and the character must specify some reasonably common way for an affected character to regain his Suppressed Char-acteristic or Power (this recovery of power occurs at once when the victim meets the condition)."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suppressing my rage

 

You ever heard of Characters being in a team? You know, with fighting togehter and all that? Because that is the way most people play Hero, as far as I heard.

And if that Brick suddenly is back to 60 STR makes a huge difference for the rest of your team.

 

Team?

 

 

I can't really see how decreased Fade rate makes your point. People pay +1/4 to make the Fade rate a non-issue in Combattime (it is still in storytime). In addtion to the normal advatnages of Drain:

Non need to maintain it or keep is slotted.

 

Supress is still the worser version, except we talk about keeping it up for hours (wich will have limits because of recovery and the need to sleep even if outside a Framework).

 

 

Also, how can't you built a Supress that costs 0 END? The rules (6E1 197) say differently:

"Reduced Endurance: Characters can only buy this Advantage for Suppress with the GM’s permission. Since Suppress is a Drain that Costs Endurance to maintain, by definition it has to cost END. However, the GM could allow a character to buy

Reduced Endurance (½ END; +¼) if desired. If he goes further and lets a character buy Suppress to cost 0 END, then the value of Costs Endurance (to maintain) goes down to -0, and the character must specify some reasonably common way for an affected character to regain his Suppressed Char-acteristic or Power (this recovery of power occurs at once when the victim meets the condition)."

 

The thing is, we have to make up special rules because we've made up silly ones.

 

If we were going to do this, then (as someone already suggested), it would have been much more sensible to to simply say you can decide when you buy Drain if the points fade at 5/turn or all at once unless maintained. This is a +0 modifier. Then we would not have confusing "you can't do this but, if you do, this is what happens" rules.

 

Or we could just overload the LHC and end the universe.