Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

- This may be a bit of nostalgia on my part' date=' but I tend to lean AWAY from the idea of an all-in-one product. Look at how AD&D built its base: a relatively small Player's Handbook, a separate Gamemaster's Guide, and a bestiary. The Player's Handbook contained everything the players needed to know to create characters, including a relatively extensive list of spells. The Gamemaster's Guide had all of the information necessary to run the game, including a relatively extensive list of magic items and suggestions for other treasures. The bestiary provided access to statistics for the fundamental foes of fantasy (orcs, dragons, demons, devils, etc). From there, they started by providing pre-packaged adventures and eventually expanded into full campaign settings. Early in gaming, most campaigns were "immature" and weren't set in a specific setting (or the setting wasn't all that significant). Players could enjoy simply going through various adventures.[/quote']

 

I certainly see where you're coming from, but we can't overlook the changes to the hobby from when AD&D first came out. Tabletop RPGs have a smaller overall audience than in their heyday, and they have to compete with various computer games for gamers' time and money. D&D's model seems to be less effective even for them than it once was.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Tabletop RPGs have a smaller overall audience than in their heyday' date=' and they have to compete with various computer games for gamers' time and money.[/quote']There is a great amount of truth to that statement. In the last year I've literally dumped over 700 hours into Skyrim alone and that is not the only video game I've played. By contrast, I have invested about 10 hours for character creation but actually participated in exactly zero role-playing games in that same year.

 

When I put it that way, I feel kinda sad.

[MrAgdesh]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

So here's the next step: give me three reasons why playing Fantasy Hero is superior to playing D&D' date=' Pathfinder, and their ilk. Please try to be brief and concise. I will be compiling together all of your answers and taking them into account when and if this project gets the green light.[/quote']

 

Would you also like three reasons as to why it wouldn't be?

[Pegasus40218]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I certainly see where you're coming from' date=' but we can't overlook the changes to the hobby from when AD&D first came out. Tabletop RPGs have a smaller overall audience than in their heyday, and they have to compete with various computer games for gamers' time and money. D&D's model seems to be less effective even for them than it once was.[/quote']

 

As someone who has a weekly gaming group that I've been a part of since AD&D's 2nd edition, I believe that the problem D&D has isn't its model, it's the content. Most players were happy with 3rd edition (or 3.5), and they simply "screwed the pooch" with 4th edition by trying to make a tabletop game that plays like an MMO. Now, a few short years later, they recognize that they've made a mistake and are looking to the players to help them create what they should have done in the first place. The other mistake, in my opinion, that the major games (AD&D and Pathfinder) are making is that they're catering to the munchkin power-gamer community. Most of the new books they come out with introduce new player-character classes and races, and the new classes and races are all more powerful than the original "base" classes and races...Consequently, if a GM allows the supplement to be used, many players want to play the new classes or races...From a marketing perspective, maybe that's not a mistake, but GMs are finding that, over time, it destroys games.

 

As for the split books, how difficult/expensive would it be to offer the content both ways (particularly in electronic format)? If the concern is that people won't buy two (slightly less expensive) books -- one for players and one for GMs -- but will buy one book for both, then produce the one book, and ALSO make it available in a split format, at least in electronic format. That would allow purchasers either option. Make it clear that the content of the split books is EXACTLY the same as the combined book, so people won't be upset when they buy one or the other only to find it's the same content that they already bought.

 

One other suggestion for content in a Fantasy game: establish some sort of monetary system. Unlike the superhero genre, money and acquiring treasure tend to be a pretty important part of the game. One thing I tried to come up with when I tried to run Fantasy HERO (the first couple of times) was some sort of translation between the character point cost (Active or Real point costs) of items and the monetary cost/value of that item. Since characters in a heroic game buy equipment, being able to come up with equipment and assign a consistent economic value is almost an absolute must when trying to maintain game balance and provide the players with reasonable rewards for their efforts.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

One other suggestion for content in a Fantasy game: establish some sort of monetary system. Unlike the superhero genre' date=' money and acquiring treasure tend to be a pretty important part of the game. One thing I tried to come up with when I tried to run Fantasy HERO (the first couple of times) was some sort of translation between the character point cost (Active or Real point costs) of items and the monetary cost/value of that item. Since characters in a heroic game buy equipment, being able to come up with equipment and assign a consistent economic value is almost an absolute must when trying to maintain game balance and provide the players with reasonable rewards for their efforts.[/quote']

 

Would you recommend something more detailed than the equipment price list in the 5E and 6E Fantasy Hero genre books?

[Pegasus40218]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Would you recommend something more detailed than the equipment price list in the 5E and 6E Fantasy Hero genre books?

 

The list provided on pages 174-180 of the 6E Fantasy HERO product are a good start for basic equipment. What would be useful would be some explanation at how the prices were arrived at. Is it related to the Character Point [Active or Real cost] necessary to build the effect? Is it based upon historical research as to what the relative cost of such items were in the real world? If you started adding powers/improvements (appart from low/high quality as discussed in the Equipment section of the book) how does the price increase? These things would allow gamemasters to expand the equipment lists and still keep prices consistent.

 

Now, I'm not a huge fan of the idea of buying and selling magic items in a fantasy game; but, most fantasy games have so much magic that it is another commodity that is simply bought and sold...So the system needs to be able to account for that.

 

I was also thinking about something along the lines of the 5th Edition HERO System Equipment Guide (which didn't include any sort of relative prices except for Modern equipment).

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

One thing I tried to come up with when I tried to run Fantasy HERO (the first couple of times) was some sort of translation between the character point cost (Active or Real point costs) of items and the monetary cost/value of that item.

 

This works better for some things than others. Immortality doesn't cost many points, but tends to be rather expensive in practice.

[gojira]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I think Real Points can provide a starting place, but then you have to use your gut feelings after that.

 

For example, defense tends to be under-priced in Hero, relative to its utility. For superheroes, the price structure is fine. But for say fantasy or modern, defenses "realistically" tend to be much harder to acquire, and characters tend to have few options to by-pass defenses (relative to a superhero, at least).

 

Thus if you look at the Fantasy Hero equipment chart, armor is very expensive relative to its real point cost, especially on the upper end of the scale (reinforced chain, plate, etc.).

[Jason S.Walters]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Would you also like three reasons as to why it wouldn't be?

 

Not really: they wouldn't look very good as blurbs on the back of the book.

[Jason S.Walters]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

What if' date=' in addition to the physical book, you offered a mini companion PDF with a small campaign setting to get them started? That way you can keep the cost of the book down and still give them something of a value add.[/quote']

 

Great minds think alike! Yes, one of the ideas I've been considering is to have the PDF package contain a modified version of Tarakian Age and Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds included in it - and, of course, to have the package made available through Bits-And-Mortar so customers shopping at retail stores could get it as well. That way a brand new GM would have a complete world and campaign at his or her fingertips as soon as they purchase the book. Seems like a deal to me.

[Jason S.Walters]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I guess what throws me off about that is that I recently heard on NPR that companies that launch successful kickstarter projects often are able to sell the production rights to other companies' date=' because those products have been shown to be so desirable that people are willing to pay up front for the vaporware version. That's for products in general though, so I can see how the game book industry might see things differently.[/quote']

 

I'm sure that works well for people who are creating revolutionary new clothing lines, gadgets, and so forth - products with mass appeal. But that's not the way Alliance, ACD, and the other big names in tabletop game distro see things.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Great minds think alike! Yes' date=' one of the ideas I've been considering is to have the PDF package contain a modified version of Tarakian Age and Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds included in it - and, of course, to have the package made available through Bits-And-Mortar so customers shopping at retail stores could get it as well. That way a brand new GM would have a complete world and campaign at his or her fingertips as soon as they purchase the book. Seems like a deal to me.[/quote']

 

Me too!

 

As others on the thread have mentioned, it would be good if your heroes are given a home base in either the core book or the PDF, from which to start their campaign adventures: a basic map of a town (not too large) and its immediate environs, interesting locations described, and a few useful NPCs written up or at least described. If you intend to draw on Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds for adventures, said town should be in an area that has the terrain types mentioned in the adventures not too far from it.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I come rather late to the party so apologies if I am only rehashing ideas already put forward (or already rejected).

Personally I'd go for a stand alone fantasy book instead of a companion adapting a superhero game to fantasy. I'd just like to point out that a stand alone fantasy game is very different than a stand alone superhero game. Keeping in mind we would like newcomers to buy the book, I would avoid calling the book "Something Complete" (very uninspiring) or "Something Champions" (it screams super fantasy too much). A title along the line of "Fantasy Hero RPG" or "Dungeon Hero RPG" are both clear and classic imho.

As for content, I would not follow the flow of Champions Complete and I'd rather look at classic fantasy rpgs, D&D, RuneQuest, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, etc. and would follow a similar setup. Again the idea is to cater for what a newcomer would expect from a fantasy game. A few examples:

• character creation follows a progression from races to cultures/environment to professions (expectation of picking and choosing classes/templates to create the character). For each category, choose the most classic templates plus one a bit more special. For instance, races would include elves, dwarves, humans, orcs and another more exotic (plenty to choose from in FH). Each races, cultures/environement and professions should be described and accompanied by a picture (again, plenty to choose from in FH and others). Abilities in templates should be described here in plain English instead of HERO speak (it could be in the PDF appendix though).
  
• following sections describe characteristics, skills, talents and perks and magic. Not much to say about characteristics except maybe that you may want to consider a bit of toolkitting. Maybe you want to omit some characteristics (SPD, END, OMCV, DMCV could be candidates), maybe you want to reintroduce figured stats and adjust costs, maybe you want to rename some characteristics more in genre (for example OCV could become Fighting and DCV could become Defending). Note that I'm not advocating for or against any of this. I'm just saying it is a could time for you guys to ponder how you want to showcase the toolkitting power of the system with rules tailored to the genre and not the other say around. It is probably what newcomers would expect.
  
• Skills should be tailored to the genre by omitting some of them and adding others (armorsmith). The languages chart could be generic or align on a setting like the Turakian Age. Renaming some skills would probably be needed as well.
  
• Talents from Fantasy Hero would be in that section but again in plain English only (HERO speak in the appendix). The idea here is to hide what would be perceived as complexity to newcomers.
  
• Magic, and I do mean magic here not Powers, would follow. I'd like this section to comprehensively showcase one or two (depending on space) magic systems. I feel the powers creation rules should not be presented here. The ability to create abilities and spells from the ground up is probably not a feature newcomers would expect and could only be seen as complexity. Gamers wanting to delve further can always look at Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero or an hypothetical Book of Advanced Magic to support this book. Sounding like a broken record here but spell effects should be described in plain English and the builds kept in the appendix.
  
• A short bestiary (say 12 to 20 beasts) could be presented in tight stats blocks. Aside from the usual horse, choose classic but interesting creatures.
  
• Setting wise I think it would be good to see a close up on a region from the Turakian Age that could be exported to any setting if the buyer would so choose. A short adventure tied to this region would be a nice addition.
  

HERO is great for fantasy because of the freedom to create exactly the character you want, second because the rules can simulate styles from gritty realism to cinematic high fantasy and third for its combat system, both simple and yet very tactical

 

Finally, I want the book to be on the shelves drawing the attention of potential new HERO gamers. If going direct is better, go that route. An advantage kickstarter could bring is through the stretch goals (extra art, full color book, hardcover, cover the production of a companion book, etc...) so maybe it's something to consider as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Keeping in mind we would like newcomers to buy the book' date=' I would avoid calling the book "Something Complete" (very uninspiring) or "Something Champions" (it screams super fantasy too much). A title along the line of "Fantasy Hero RPG" or "Dungeon Hero RPG" are both clear and classic imho.[/quote']

 

Agreed - the game title and art should scream "fantasy RPG".

 

As for content' date=' I would not follow the flow of Champions Complete and I'd rather look at classic fantasy rpgs, D&D, RuneQuest, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, etc. and would follow a similar setup. Again the idea is to cater for what a newcomer would expect from a fantasy game.[/quote']

 

I'm less certain of this. Hero is not an "entry level game" and likely will not be the first game picked up. That said, the possibility could be addressed by a "what is role playing" type intro. I like the idea of "What is Role Playing" and "How does the Hero System Work" as intro segments. The first is aimed at someone not currently part of the hobby, and the second summarizes the philosophies of the Hero system, including differences from other games the reader may have played. These sections should not be lengthy - they should be the kind of intro a browser could read in the store, and decide they want to make the purchase. If they could fit on 2 - 4 pages, they could be offered to stores as leaflets - let the browser read these if you prefer to shrink wrap the product.

 

character creation follows a progression from races to cultures/environment to professions (expectation of picking and choosing classes/templates to create the character). For each category' date=' choose the most classic templates plus one a bit more special. For instance, races would include elves, dwarves, humans, orcs and another more exotic (plenty to choose from in FH). Each races, cultures/environement and professions should be described and accompanied by a picture (again, plenty to choose from in FH and others). Abilities in templates should be described here in plain English instead of HERO speak (it could be in the PDF appendix though).[/quote']

 

I think character creation should be the first aspect presented. D&D presents "Attributes, Races, Classes, Skills, Feats, Gear, Misc, Spells" IIRC. A similar model would work reasonably well, although collapsing Race and Class into "Templates" would work too. Something like "Characteristics, Races and Professions, Skills, Perks and Talents, Gear, Spells, Complications, Misc" would work well for a "game in a box".

 

I'd avoid a lot of toolkitting here in favour of a discussion in a separate section aimed at the GM. I'd stick with standard Hero nomenclature, and probably keep all the characteristics, but provide some guidelines/caps for PC's. Examples in the monsters could showcase higher stats (a Hydra could have a high Speed with all those heads, and have some lost when heads are killed, for example).

 

Skills should be tailored to the genre by omitting some of them and adding others (armorsmith). The languages chart could be generic or align on a setting like the Turakian Age. Renaming some skills would probably be needed as well.

 

I'd minimize renaming, but some skills would not fit and examples of others could be provided (much like D&D has Craft, which includes armorsmith, weaponsmith, etc. and Perform which includes Dance, Oratory and Wind Instruments).

 

Magic' date=' and I do mean magic here not Powers, would follow. I'd like this section to comprehensively showcase one or two (depending on space) magic systems. I feel the powers creation rules should not be presented here. The ability to create abilities and spells from the ground up is probably not a feature newcomers would expect and could only be seen as complexity. Gamers wanting to delve further can always look at Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero or an hypothetical Book of Advanced Magic to support this book. Sounding like a broken record here but spell effects should be described in plain English and the builds kept in the appendix. [/quote']

 

I think one developed magic system, rather than several options, would be best. Perhaps two systems that live side by side (characters would pick one or the other, but both are in the default "setting") would be useful. Overall, I agree with limiting the power construction mechanics in favour of lots of talents, spells, etc. to create a Fantasy Hero Game. However, this presupposes a second publication to refer them to, and Champions Complete doesn't cut it - a generic or a Fantasy specific product is needed. Perhaps the compromise is to note that this game is "Powered by Hero System", make the builds available online, and refer to a plan for a future book which will set out the construction methods for martial arts maneuvers, talents, powers, etc., or the reader could purchase Hero 6th ED (even that last is dicy, since it probably leads to Champions Complete).

 

A short bestiary (say 12 to 20 beasts) could be presented in tight stats blocks. Aside from the usual horse' date=' choose classic but interesting creatures. [/quote']

 

I'd rather see more than less. Perhaps an explanatory document translating "Fantasy Hero Stat Block" to/from Bestiary Character Sheet could be made available online to allow the reader to be referred to the Bestiary, and some of the 5e fantasy enemy books, for more examples. You'd need the "power creation" rules to understand the Grimoire, but it may be practical to have a better guide for the Bestiary.

 

Setting wise I think it would be good to see a close up on a region from the Turakian Age that could be exported to any setting if the buyer would so choose. A short adventure tied to this region would be a nice addition.

 

I like the idea of Turakian as it's classic high magic. I dislike incorporating the "spell costs are reduced to 1/3" aspect of Turakian, but maybe that works with spells presented descriptively, with point costs not spelled out in detail. The online builds can certainly indicate the final costs are 1/3 of the Hero System cost, in accordance with the parameters of Turakian Age (or they could be full priced if that's the preference).

 

HERO is great for fantasy because of the freedom to create exactly the character you want' date=' second because the rules can simulate styles from gritty realism to cinematic high fantasy and third for its combat system, both simple and yet very tactical[/quote']

 

This does, however, make this Powered by Hero game (which still needs much of the Vol 2 rules - we don't discuss those above, but they can likely be rewritten from CC, reflavouored for Fantasy). That means it may showcase some of Hero's strengths, but limits the ability to showcase flexibility. That would be reserved for the "Advanced Guide (?)" to come later.

 

As for marketing, the approach that gets the book on store shelves is clearly to be preferred.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Magic, and I do mean magic here not Powers, would follow. I'd like this section to comprehensively showcase one or two (depending on space) magic systems. I feel the powers creation rules should not be presented here. The ability to create abilities and spells from the ground up is probably not a feature newcomers would expect and could only be seen as complexity. Gamers wanting to delve further can always look at Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero or an hypothetical Book of Advanced Magic to support this book. Sounding like a broken record here but spell effects should be described in plain English and the builds kept in the appendix.

 

I'm mixed in my response to this. On the one hand, I agree that any pregenerated spells should be presented initially in an abbreviated format, for casual browsers who would be put off by the full HERO stat blocks. The Fantasy HERO Grimoire actually does provide such a format at the beginning of each spell write-up, using only the stats a player would use during play: type of Power, number of dice, range, duration, AoE, casting time, etc., plus a textual description of the effect. However, that's followed by the full HERO breakdown for each spell. I'd like to see the spells presented all together in shortened form in one section of the book, with the detailed builds in another section, for when gamers become more comfortable with the system and want to know how it works (and to build their own original spells).

 

OTOH I feel strongly that the Power-building system has to be included in the new FH core book. If we want people to adopt HERO for fantasy over other games they may have played, the advantages of HERO have to be demonstrated, and the system's supremely flexible Powers and Modifiers are its most distinguishing feature. Players are less likely to pick up on that if they have to be referred to another book to see it.

[gojira]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

OTOH I feel strongly that the Power-building system has to be included in the new FH core book.

 

60% to 80% of the Power-building section from Champions Complete, I'd say. While I agree in principle that new players should be exposed to the power of Hero Powers (no pun intended), I think trying to get them to absorb the entire thing at once would be too much. Even if Champions Complete's abbreviated format is used, it's still too much for a lot of gamers. Get the new player started on the powers system, but it's OK to simplify it and leave some corner cases out (mostly, limitations) which aren't strictly needed for a beginning FH game.

 

 

EDIT: Just thinking about this a bit more, many Mental Powers, Advantages and Limitations could be omitted. Other than Mental Illusions, there's not much use for many mental powers in a lot of basic fantasy games. Mental powers are usually added later or in a special section, ime. Images ("hard light illusions") covers most of the illusionary powers in typical fantasy games.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

60% to 80% of the Power-building section from Champions Complete, I'd say. While I agree in principle that new players should be exposed to the power of Hero Powers (no pun intended), I think trying to get them to absorb the entire thing at once would be too much. Even if Champions Complete's abbreviated format is used, it's still too much for a lot of gamers. Get the new player started on the powers system, but it's OK to simplify it and leave some corner cases out (mostly, limitations) which aren't strictly needed for a beginning FH game.

 

EDIT: Just thinking about this a bit more, many Mental Powers, Advantages and Limitations could be omitted. Other than Mental Illusions, there's not much use for many mental powers in a lot of basic fantasy games. Mental powers are usually added later or in a special section, ime. Images ("hard light illusions") covers most of the illusionary powers in typical fantasy games.

 

 

Respectfully disagree. If Hero Games is going to start a new fantasy "complete" line to pair with Champions Complete, the core book that future fantasy publications refer to should have essentially the whole system (with omissions of anachronisms and renaming some things to be more genre-appropriate). I don't think it's a good idea to make too many decisions about what gamers will or won't find suitable for their own games. Mental Powers is actually a good example. It's much easier to mesmerize people to be your unwilling slave if you have access to Mind Control, for instance. For a villain if not a PC.

 

One of the priorities of Champions Complete was to get the entire system into a more easily-digested form while not significantly diminishing its power. IMHO that's a good precedent to follow.

[Ndreare]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

A major problem with the grimoir format is the ten versions of every spell format. I have had multiple played who have scene it comment in a smarmy tone how much "easier" it isto get. I think the example magic spells should have at most one or two options not dozens.

[gojira]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Respectfully disagree. If Hero Games is going to start a new fantasy "complete" line to pair with Champions Complete' date=' the core book that future fantasy publications refer to should have essentially the whole system[/quote']

 

I can see what you are saying, but I'm not sure the priority should be to make another rules-info-dump. I think the priority should be on making something new players are likely to pick up and buy. Tightening the rules up as much as possible would help, as would as expansive background (even if that background is just a mini-setting).

 

Your point about Mind Control is a good one though, it probably needs to remain.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

 

I'm less certain of this. Hero is not an "entry level game" and likely will not be the first game picked up. That said, the possibility could be addressed by a "what is role playing" type intro. I like the idea of "What is Role Playing" and "How does the Hero System Work" as intro segments. The first is aimed at someone not currently part of the hobby, and the second summarizes the philosophies of the Hero system, including differences from other games the reader may have played. These sections should not be lengthy - they should be the kind of intro a browser could read in the store, and decide they want to make the purchase. If they could fit on 2 - 4 pages, they could be offered to stores as leaflets - let the browser read these if you prefer to shrink wrap the product.

 

Agreed. By "newcomer", I mean new to HERO but I have no issue with your suggestion.

 

I think character creation should be the first aspect presented. D&D presents "Attributes, Races, Classes, Skills, Feats, Gear, Misc, Spells" IIRC. A similar model would work reasonably well, although collapsing Race and Class into "Templates" would work too. Something like "Characteristics, Races and Professions, Skills, Perks and Talents, Gear, Spells, Complications, Misc" would work well for a "game in a box".

 

Sure as long as it feel like a normal flow for a fantasy RPG instead of a generic rule book with some fantasy rules and genre information slapped at the end. I think that formula works for Champions but not for Fantasy.

 

I'd avoid a lot of toolkitting here in favour of a discussion in a separate section aimed at the GM. I'd stick with standard Hero nomenclature, and probably keep all the characteristics, but provide some guidelines/caps for PC's. Examples in the monsters could showcase higher stats (a Hydra could have a high Speed with all those heads, and have some lost when heads are killed, for example). I'd minimize renaming, but some skills would not fit and examples of others could be provided (much like D&D has Craft, which includes armorsmith, weaponsmith, etc. and Perform which includes Dance, Oratory and Wind Instruments).

 

I somewhat agree altought, I'd rather have not useful stats left out instead of keeping them for the sake of keeping them. The most obvious are OMCV and DMCV as they are not even that super useful (as primary stat) in Champions. Same with out of genre skills obviously. As for renaming, I'd also keep that to a minimum but OCV and DCV could be renamed Fighting and Defending just to make them more in genre. That would be as far as I would go personally and keep the rest as is.

 

I'd rather see more than less. Perhaps an explanatory document translating "Fantasy Hero Stat Block" to/from Bestiary Character Sheet could be made available online to allow the reader to be referred to the Bestiary, and some of the 5e fantasy enemy books, for more examples. You'd need the "power creation" rules to understand the Grimoire, but it may be practical to have a better guide for the Bestiary.

No argument there! If there is room for 40, it's even better!

 

This does, however, make this Powered by Hero game (which still needs much of the Vol 2 rules - we don't discuss those above, but they can likely be rewritten from CC, reflavouored for Fantasy). That means it may showcase some of Hero's strengths, but limits the ability to showcase flexibility. That would be reserved for the "Advanced Guide (?)" to come later.

True but even without the power-build system, HERO is nonetheless highly flexible compared to many other rpg.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

A major problem with the grimoir format is the ten versions of every spell format. I have had multiple played who have scene it comment in a smarmy tone how much "easier" it isto get. I think the example magic spells should have at most one or two options not dozens.

 

Yes, this also.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

A major problem with the grimoir format is the ten versions of every spell format. I have had multiple played who have scene it comment in a smarmy tone how much "easier" it isto get. I think the example magic spells should have at most one or two options not dozens.

 

"Dozens" is of course exaggeration, but it may seem like that at a glance; although I've never heard that reaction myself. Two or three variations per spell is probably enough in most cases, though, e.g. a higher-powered version, and one or two with different Modifiers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Sure as long as it feel like a normal flow for a fantasy RPG instead of a generic rule book with some fantasy rules and genre information slapped at the end. I think that formula works for Champions but not for Fantasy.

 

I think it's important to maintain a Fantasy tone. A "for the player" section on character creation and activity, and a GM section with other matters, also makes sense.

 

True but even without the power-build system' date=' HERO is nonetheless highly flexible compared to many other rpg.[/quote']

 

This is the problematic area, in my view. As LL notes, a huge Hero advantage is its flexibility. If a Fantasy book presents a couple of magic systems, then I'm stuck with those choices. I think, however, that we agree the Fantasy book needs character templates for races and professions, talents, perks, superskills and spells all written up as examples for the players/GM. We could easily put the full power creation rules in the GM section/advanced section along with full hero builds for the "pick, plug & play" builds in the front. But how many pages does it take to have a fairly broad list of racial and class type templates, a good cross section of talents and perks to match other fantasy games, a magic system or two, a wide selection of spells, a reasonable section of fantasy opponents (here, maybe, corners can be cut by referring to the Bestiary), a starting locale and a sample adventure, a selection of gear (mundane and magical) the combat, movement, etc. rules, then add the complete power construction rules?

 

There's a reason the Pathfinder core rules are 700+ pages (with no starting locale or adventure, and relying on a Bestiary) and the D&D core is in three volumes. How much is "just enough" and how much is "too much" is a tough line to draw.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

The "Clone Post" spell can be saved for a supplement - it's not essential to a core game.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I am curious as to what sort of "mini-setting" is being considered for inclusion in the core book. Jason, any thoughts at this point?