Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

[Lucius]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I can't believe it's been about 6 years since I first posted this in several of the "What I Learned Playing A _____" threads. I'm reposting it in answer to the request above.

 

 

I'm not playing D&D anymore, and I haven't been for 20 years. Instead of having to use one of a limited number of character concepts concocted by the game designer, I can come up with any character concept I choose, give it the abilities justified by the concept, and if the Game Operations Director agrees it's reasonable, I'm ready to play.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I was playing Hero before I even had a palindromedary

[Tasha]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I can create the character I want to play. I don't have to fit my vision into someone else's framework.

 

The rules are consistent from combat though to skill use. All parts of the game use the same system. so I only have to know Roll under my skill roll to accomplish my task.

 

I can also make the game as realistic or as cinematic as I desire as a GM. This allows me as GM full control of how gritty the game feels.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

1) Character creation can be as open-ended, or not, as you're comfortable with. If you just want to pick a character type and start playing, Hero has many templates for PC character classes and races already generated, including classics from other fantasy games and source material. If you want a free hand to make a completely original character with the abilities you choose, there's no game freer. If you want something in between, Hero templates are easily customizable.

 

2) Hero combat at its base is pretty simple mechanically, but includes lots of options which you can add, and guidelines for things to remove, to get the type of combat experience you enjoy. Make it simpler and faster, or add more detail; increase or decrease lethality; add flavor by choosing from a host of sophisticated martial arts maneuvers.

 

3) Most games don't show you how PC class or monster combat abilities, spells, etc. were arrived at or how they balance against each other, which sometimes makes it tough to design new stuff that fits the power range of your particular game. Hero lets you lift the hood and see the mechanics fully quantified, so you can compare the different abilities and see how they fit together.

 

(Pursuant to that last point, I think it's important that elements like magic spells or creature combat abilities be presented first just as lists of stats that players will be using in-game: CV, Defenses, Speed, Damage, Range, AoE, etc. Full Hero System stat blocks often intimidate new players. The detailed descriptions should be elsewhere in the book for GMs and players who want to see them.)

[dmjalund]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

also as a GM i can really control the feel of the game, including create campaign specific package deals. being able to determine what I think clerical abilities should include. etc.

[Old Man]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

So here's the next step: give me three reasons why playing Fantasy Hero is superior to playing D&D, Pathfinder, and their ilk. Please try to be brief and concise. I will be compiling together all of your answers and taking them into account when and if this project gets the green light.

 

1. Combat is not so abstracted as to be boring. Even 'vanilla' fighters can block, dodge, grab, trip, move by. Unlike hit point systems, FH combat is actually dangerous.

 

2. Scalability. FH holds together from 50 points to 400+. AD&D is broken outside levels 4-10.

 

3. Character options. AD&D can't even do obvious tropes like the talented child, the veteran with the peg leg, the wizard who isn't useless in melee, or the human warrior who knows a couple of cantrips. And some of the concepts it does support, like lightly-armored fighters, are at a clear disadvantage. In FH whatever character you make can be competitive.

 

4. (bonus!) FH magic is not Vancian. Nor is it the once-a-day system that I AD&D4 tried. I think this is a key weakness in AD&D. The system from 1st ed. FH was superior to either.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Everybody:

 

First of all I want to thank all of you for contributing to this thread. It's been extremely enlightening (in fact, I've been taking notes). You will be gratified to know that the investors have been reading your comments and have commented favorably to me on several of them.

 

As many of you have already guessed, we are leaning in the direction of an all-inclusive project like Champions Complete. To be honest, it wouldn't really be a product aimed at those of you who have been playing the game for decades. Rather, like CC the purpose of the project would be to a) encourage new people to try out the system who have never played it before, create an accessible book that could be used by new or inexperienced players in a gaming group, c) develop something the brick-and-mortar retailers would like to put on their shelves, and d) create something that will sell steadily over the long-term.

 

So here's the next step: give me three reasons why playing Fantasy Hero is superior to playing D&D, Pathfinder, and their ilk. Please try to be brief and concise. I will be compiling together all of your answers and taking them into account when and if this project gets the green light.

 

1) Flexible character creation. If you want to play a knight, assassin, or arcane archer you have to play other classes first in D&D, aka prestige classes. In Hero you play what you want from the start if you have enough points. There is no need to track out 20 levels of progression when you create your character... In Hero they feel more like professions than classes, where the profession defines what you do and the class defines what you are...

 

2) Less abstract combat system. Armor lets you get hit and take no damage. In D&D you are just harder to hit and you always take damage once you are hit. If you use encumbrance you actually are easier to hit with armor. Built in rules for knocking someone out and critical damage. More combat options that any can do, without having to buy a talent for each one. The abstract hit points are done away with, and replaced with imo more realistic body and stun. At level 20 you are not going to worry about a thug with a crossbow, because you have 100+ hit points...

 

3) Just about every magic system is anything but the Vatican system. you can actually have a magic system that is close to the fantasy books you read.

 

These are the reasons I have not played D&D since 3.0...

[Greywind]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

The Vatican does magic?

[Lezentauw]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

lol, I meant Vancian... typing on a phone and all

[Ternaugh]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

The Vatican does magic?

 

Sure, but you always have to play a Cleric.

 

JoeG

[Lezentauw]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Another aspect I like about Hero are complications. For D&D they are nothing more than for role playing. For Hero you actually get something for these weaknesses that help define your character

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I'm going to go beyond the parameters you set here for a moment and mention something else. I think Hero Games has gotten a bit too insular and needs to reach beyond its immediate fans here on these boards and the same core group of industry insiders.

 

I'd really like to see you personally, and maybe a few of the investors too, head out to some game stores and spend some time on a 'listening tour' to see what other ideas there are about Hero that might truly the target this new product at gamers who haven't tried Hero yet. There's a great resource I'm sure at the Mages Realm in Sacramento, and just beyond that in the Bay Area. Trying to truly understand what new people are interested in for a DnD replacement system I think is key.

 

I'm seeing a lot of nostalgia on this thread, and I wonder if that's truly the best for a new product. A DnD clone Western Shores style setting might not be the best way to introduce new players who are looking for a DnD alternative. On that RPG.net thread I linked to above, there was a lot of interest in a sword-and-sorcery style, freer form game, different than DnD. I think verifying the interest in that or some other setting would be a big step into getting new people to give Hero a look.

 

Not to distract from the "why Hero is better" summaries, but I didn't want gojira's point to get lost in the shuffle. If a version of FHC does go forward, there will need to be a discussion of how best to market it -- whether to emphasize "you can do what you already like to do in other popular games, only better," or highlight "you can have a different play experience from most other games."

[dmjalund]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

The Vatican does magic?

Their Warlock Assasins might

[Pegasus40218]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Give me three reasons why playing Fantasy Hero is superior to playing D&D, Pathfinder, and their ilk. Please try to be brief and concise. I will be compiling together all of your answers and taking them into account when and if this project gets the green light.

 

1. The players. Seriously, the type of gamer who is drawn to a system like HERO is a different breed from your typical D&Der or Pathfinder player. My weekly gaming group typically plays some version of AD&D or Pathfinder, and the players are almost always focused on one thing: min-maxing everything. Unfortunately, many of the "canned" adventures pretty much expect or encourage this by making some of the challenges pretty much impossible if you don't min-max. As a result, things are focused more on game mechanics than story and character development. Juxtapose this with my previous gaming group (which is currently playing Fantasy HERO, unfortunately on a night that I cannot attend), and you'll find the players far more focused on developing skills and abilities that "make sense" for the character or current story rather than simply trying to get the most "bang for the buck" out of every point. HERO players also tend to understand the value and interest of disadvantages and weaknesses, whereas your typical D&Der will attempt to develop their character into an invulnerable mop-monster as quickly as possible...And if that's what they and their gamemasters enjoy, more power to them. It's just not a style of play I find entertaining for long.

 

2. As other people have mentioned, the flexibility to literally do ANYTHING is one of the great strengths of the HERO System. You can create a "character" and then let his abilities evolve organically as the story progresses, rather than being locked into a rigid schedule of progression based upon choices that you made before the actual game even started. Unfortunately, for newcomers to the system, this flexibility is also one of the great barriers to getting started (successfully) with the system. It can sometimes be extremely difficult to figure out whether a player's build is "unbalancing", particularly for someone new to HERO. Add to that the sheer number of options available, and the system can SEEM quite daunting.

 

3. Simplicity and consistency of the basic mechanic. The same basic mechanic is used for just about everything. This helps simplify the learning curve.

 

I'm a longtime gamer (started gaming in 1981) and I've played a wide variety of systems and can enjoy a well-run game in just about any system. I've tried introducing my current gaming group to Fantasy HERO, without much success (my struggles have been somewhat chronicled on other threads). There are a couple of issues that have proven difficult to deal with as someone without a lot of HERO System experience trying to run a game for an inexperienced group of HERO players. I'll outline a few of those issues here:

 

1) Overcoming a "level-based" mentality as a game master. In most systems, the characters start off relatively weak and become significantly more powerful as they gain "levels". In my opinion, to run a successful HERO campaign, you have to forget the notion that the characters will start off weak and become stronger. For example, in D&D, a single orc can be a threat one-on-one for a PC. In a typical HERO game, the PC is going to mop a typical (straight from the bestiary) orc without breaking a sweat. I think the concept is that the characters START OUT as "HEROES", rather than developing into "heroes"...That mental shift alone can be somewhat challenging to make.

 

2) Trying to figure out what is and is not "balanced" in gaming terms. While the basic mechanic is fairly simple, it can be difficult to guage just how much impact an extra point of OCV, DCV, rPD or rED will have on the game. Again, the tendency of players from other systems to min-max makes it difficult for a new GM to figure out where to set the limits necessary to get the "feel" he's looking for. The other part of this is that you have to take multiple factors into account when attempting to gauge balance. Consider combat. In a typical D&D game it's a fairly straight-forward proposition to determine how easily any given PC will be able to "hit" an opponent. The same is true in HERO. However, unlike D&D, where pretty much EVERY hit is going to inflict some damage (which is also relatively simple to guage, even with damage reduction), it can be somewhat more challenging to figure out what a typical "hit" will do in HERO. It's not quite as easy to gauge how much actual damage a character can dish out in HERO. You have two different types of damage (STUN and BODY), two different types of defenses (standard and resistant), you have to be concerned about whether an attack is (or can be made) armor piercing; whether or not the target has any sort of damage reduction, etc. It can be a lot to consider for someone new to the system.

[mallet]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I'm a big fan of Fantasy Hero, in fact it is the most played genre by far that I have ever used the hero system for. One of the main reasons for that is that most of my friends that I role-play with a mainly Fantasy RPG fans. I am sure it is not crazy to state that fantasy is by far the most popular and best selling genre in the role-playing world. So the fact that Hero wants to focus on it with a new complete book is fantastic.

 

I am strongly in the opinion that the book should be an all-in-one, pick up and play resource. If that means losing some of flexibility or reprinting rules, so be it. The hardest thing I have ever had to do was get players invested in custom created Hero Game. The rules were to big. there was too much to read. Too many options. It was too much work for the players to learn how to make characters so I usually ended up making the characters for them based on what they would tell me they wanted (a statement I've read from other GM's posting on these boards numerous times) which is fine, except it always prevents the players from fully feeling like they "owned" the character. Once we started playing though, they love the Hero System and enjoy playing it, but it is the initial investment of time and learning that is killer.

 

The new book should be geared to solving that problem. Players should be able to buy a copy, read through nice, clean, easy to understand character creation rules and create a character that will work and be balanced for the game. yes, that means including a "base" setting/power level for the system built into the rules. This puts everyone, Gm and players, on the same page right off the bat. If a particular GM wants to tinker with the rules they have tons of resources available to do so from other books and they will know their own players better then Hero does so it will be easier for them to make those changes, then it would be to just release another generic "here is a ton of fantasy stuff with infinite possible levels of powers and options so go for it" mentality. GM's want thing to be easy for them as well. Have a solid balanced, based "power level" for the game would make things 1000% easier to draw players and GMs into the game.

 

As for how to fit it all in 240 pages, I am actually not seeing how it could be too too hard.

 

Look at the Hero System Basic Rulebook. I'm flipping through it right now. 136 pages. Nice, clean, concise. perfect. (and it still have pictures). With just a quick look I can see about 6 pages worth of stuff that could be cut because it doesn't apply to a fantasy game. Things like the full page of modern and sci-fi ranged weapons. Powers like FTL. Skills like Combat piloting, bugging, electronics, science skills, computer programming, etc... (yes, I know some of these skills/powers could be made to work in a Fantasy Setting, but those would be rare enough settings the the GM could add them in himself if needed. They would not be needed in most traditional fantasy games.).

 

That brings the page count down to 130. Rewrite those 130 pages to be fantasy specific in tone and examples (including changing all the sample characters to fantasy ones).

 

Then add in 40 pages of other important rules from the vast hero collection of books that specifically pertain to Fantasy games. Thing from the current fantasy hero 6th ed. book, like expanded fantasy armour charts, equipments lists, other skills, powers and advantages & limitations not included in the Basic Rulebook, but that might be useful. Add in hit locations, and other things like that. Expand on important skills.

 

Imagine, 40 pages (that's almost 1/3 of the existing Basic Rulebook) added in with a specific focus on what is needed for fantasy game. That would fantastic, and still only bring the page count up to 170 pages. That still leave another 70 pages worth free before we reach the 240 page limit.

 

With those 70 pages, you could:

 

add 15 pages as an expanded character creation section with racial & professional packages, how-to guides, etc...

 

Add 10 pages of sample spells.

 

Add 5 pages of sample magic items.

 

Add a 5 page "how to build" monsters guide.

 

Add 10 pages of sample monsters.

 

All of that and that is still only about 215 pages.

 

Assuming a bigger Index (about 4 pages) and 6 pages of charts, lists, etc...

 

That brings us to 225 pages. 15 pages left to fill.

 

Well, how about a 10 page cool mini/starting adventure and 5 pages of sample bad guys for that adventure?

 

There, thats 240 pages.

 

It includes the entire 6th Basic Rulebook so it has everything needed to play the game, it has tons of extra stuff added from Fantasy Hero 6th, plus spells and spell building, monsters and monster building, an expanded character creation guide and more. it would be perfect for starting players and GM's a like (and still have some art work).

 

It would give them everything they need to easily pick-up and play and get invested in the game and adventure, and that's always the hardest part. Once they get into the game everything else will follow, but the most important thing is getting them to the table and able to play and a nice, clean, easy to read book with a specific and built in balance and starting "level" is the best way to do that. In D&D any player with the players guide can make a character at home and show up at any game and start to play with a group of other players who did the same thing. In the current Hero system that isn't true. A GM has to look at every character and spend time seeing if they will all "work" and nothing is too crazy of a build or too unbalancing, etc... This book should strive to avoid all (or most) of that problem.

 

Plus, it leaves room to grow with expansion books, etc... rather then trying to fit everything into one (and then never needed to sell another book again).

 

That's my opinion on it.

[Jhaierr]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

What Mallet said.

 

After reading everyone's replies, I think that this could be one of the best things Hero could do. I've been playing fantasy for years, but I never really got my friends to use Hero (in some cases for various reasons unrelated to Hero).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Plus' date=' it leaves room to grow with expansion books, etc... rather then trying to fit everything into one (and then never needed to sell another book again). [/quote']

 

That has been the Achilles' Heel of Hero Games for a long time, hasn't it? Many other game companies churn out "splatbooks" including rules expansions on a regular basis. I certainly don't advocate Hero taking that route, but there's something to be said sales-wise to giving the customer what he needs, but leaving him wanting more.

[Ndreare]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I'm a big fan of Fantasy Hero, in fact it is the most played genre by far that I have ever used the hero system for. One of the main reasons for that is that most of my friends that I role-play with a mainly Fantasy RPG fans. I am sure it is not crazy to state that fantasy is by far the most popular and best selling genre in the role-playing world. So the fact that Hero wants to focus on it with a new complete book is fantastic.

 

I am strongly in the opinion that the book should be an all-in-one, pick up and play resource. If that means losing some of flexibility or reprinting rules, so be it. The hardest thing I have ever had to do was get players invested in custom created Hero Game. The rules were to big. there was too much to read. Too many options. It was too much work for the players to learn how to make characters so I usually ended up making the characters for them based on what they would tell me they wanted (a statement I've read from other GM's posting on these boards numerous times) which is fine, except it always prevents the players from fully feeling like they "owned" the character. Once we started playing though, they love the Hero System and enjoy playing it, but it is the initial investment of time and learning that is killer.

 

The new book should be geared to solving that problem. Players should be able to buy a copy, read through nice, clean, easy to understand character creation rules and create a character that will work and be balanced for the game. yes, that means including a "base" setting/power level for the system built into the rules. This puts everyone, Gm and players, on the same page right off the bat. If a particular GM wants to tinker with the rules they have tons of resources available to do so from other books and they will know their own players better then Hero does so it will be easier for them to make those changes, then it would be to just release another generic "here is a ton of fantasy stuff with infinite possible levels of powers and options so go for it" mentality. GM's want thing to be easy for them as well. Have a solid balanced, based "power level" for the game would make things 1000% easier to draw players and GMs into the game.

 

As for how to fit it all in 240 pages, I am actually not seeing how it could be too too hard.

 

Look at the Hero System Basic Rulebook. I'm flipping through it right now. 136 pages. Nice, clean, concise. perfect. (and it still have pictures). With just a quick look I can see about 6 pages worth of stuff that could be cut because it doesn't apply to a fantasy game. Things like the full page of modern and sci-fi ranged weapons. Powers like FTL. Skills like Combat piloting, bugging, electronics, science skills, computer programming, etc... (yes, I know some of these skills/powers could be made to work in a Fantasy Setting, but those would be rare enough settings the the GM could add them in himself if needed. They would not be needed in most traditional fantasy games.).

 

That brings the page count down to 130. Rewrite those 130 pages to be fantasy specific in tone and examples (including changing all the sample characters to fantasy ones).

 

Then add in 40 pages of other important rules from the vast hero collection of books that specifically pertain to Fantasy games. Thing from the current fantasy hero 6th ed. book, like expanded fantasy armour charts, equipments lists, other skills, powers and advantages & limitations not included in the Basic Rulebook, but that might be useful. Add in hit locations, and other things like that. Expand on important skills.

 

Imagine, 40 pages (that's almost 1/3 of the existing Basic Rulebook) added in with a specific focus on what is needed for fantasy game. That would fantastic, and still only bring the page count up to 170 pages. That still leave another 70 pages worth free before we reach the 240 page limit.

 

With those 70 pages, you could:

 

add 15 pages as an expanded character creation section with racial & professional packages, how-to guides, etc...

 

Add 10 pages of sample spells.

 

Add 5 pages of sample magic items.

 

Add a 5 page "how to build" monsters guide.

 

Add 10 pages of sample monsters.

 

All of that and that is still only about 215 pages.

 

Assuming a bigger Index (about 4 pages) and 6 pages of charts, lists, etc...

 

That brings us to 225 pages. 15 pages left to fill.

 

Well, how about a 10 page cool mini/starting adventure and 5 pages of sample bad guys for that adventure?

 

There, thats 240 pages.

 

It includes the entire 6th Basic Rulebook so it has everything needed to play the game, it has tons of extra stuff added from Fantasy Hero 6th, plus spells and spell building, monsters and monster building, an expanded character creation guide and more. it would be perfect for starting players and GM's a like (and still have some art work).

 

It would give them everything they need to easily pick-up and play and get invested in the game and adventure, and that's always the hardest part. Once they get into the game everything else will follow, but the most important thing is getting them to the table and able to play and a nice, clean, easy to read book with a specific and built in balance and starting "level" is the best way to do that. In D&D any player with the players guide can make a character at home and show up at any game and start to play with a group of other players who did the same thing. In the current Hero system that isn't true. A GM has to look at every character and spend time seeing if they will all "work" and nothing is too crazy of a build or too unbalancing, etc... This book should strive to avoid all (or most) of that problem.

 

Plus, it leaves room to grow with expansion books, etc... rather then trying to fit everything into one (and then never needed to sell another book again).

 

That's my opinion on it.

 

Very well said. Combined with the preformed powers in those spells and talents section I think hero could become very attractive to new player groups.

[Ryhope Wood]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

1. The players. Seriously, the type of gamer who is drawn to a system like HERO is a different breed from your typical D&Der or Pathfinder player. My weekly gaming group typically plays some version of AD&D or Pathfinder, and the players are almost always focused on one thing: min-maxing everything. Unfortunately, many of the "canned" adventures pretty much expect or encourage this by making some of the challenges pretty much impossible if you don't min-max. As a result, things are focused more on game mechanics than story and character development. Juxtapose this with my previous gaming group (which is currently playing Fantasy HERO, unfortunately on a night that I cannot attend), and you'll find the players far more focused on developing skills and abilities that "make sense" for the character or current story rather than simply trying to get the most "bang for the buck" out of every point. HERO players also tend to understand the value and interest of disadvantages and weaknesses, whereas your typical D&Der will attempt to develop their character into an invulnerable mop-monster as quickly as possible...And if that's what they and their gamemasters enjoy, more power to them. It's just not a style of play I find entertaining for long.

 

2. As other people have mentioned, the flexibility to literally do ANYTHING is one of the great strengths of the HERO System. You can create a "character" and then let his abilities evolve organically as the story progresses, rather than being locked into a rigid schedule of progression based upon choices that you made before the actual game even started. Unfortunately, for newcomers to the system, this flexibility is also one of the great barriers to getting started (successfully) with the system. It can sometimes be extremely difficult to figure out whether a player's build is "unbalancing", particularly for someone new to HERO. Add to that the sheer number of options available, and the system can SEEM quite daunting.

 

3. Simplicity and consistency of the basic mechanic. The same basic mechanic is used for just about everything. This helps simplify the learning curve.

 

I've been playing RPGs on and off with the same group of friends for about 30 years as well. Many of the advantages of HERO can also be its disadvantages. My friends have played Champions over the years and love it for super heroes. The problem is often using the HERO System at the Heroic Tier for vanilla D&D fantasy or low magic sword and sorcery. The key attraction to someone playing D&D of a generic system like HERO is the ability to tweak everything within a consistent framework. This is especially attractive to a GM who wants to create exactly the kinds of settings he wants. For me the driver to change from D&D to another system will therefore more often come from the GM rather than the players. However the ability to tweak requires a large time investment for HERO, which is often a stretch for older players like myself who have numerous non-game commitments.

 

Fantasy Hero must compete with other generic systems for the disenchanted D&D GM. Notable competitors are GURPS, Savage Worlds, and FATE. How does HERO stack up against these for fantasy gaming?

 

GURPS and HERO are much more detailed and more precisely tweak able. FATE has a lot of hand waving / lack of granular detail, and Savage Worlds lies in-between. On the other hand, FATE and Savage Worlds are a lot easier on time-pressed GMs.

 

So if you (a) like granular detail and ( have time to commit to developing your fantasy campaign you are going down the GURPS or HERO route.

 

GURPS has some notable advantages: (a) extensive equipment lists (and where equipment is defined as is not as powers), ( characteristic costs maintain the differentiation that players expect from D&D, and © a more familiar basic spell system. GURPS is more difficult to learn than HERO but feels closer to the game material because everything isn't built from powers. HERO is easier to learn, and a lot of things have pre-built examples, but it just seems more intimidating to the new player. For example, GURPS characteristics still default from primary to secondary attributes. Breaking this link in 6E HERO just leaves a newbie GM wanting to know how much END they should buy to be reasonable. Min-maxing in HERO is also an acknowledged problem especially with primary characteristics. The character sheets look very intimidating!

 

This is why I yo-yo between GURPS and HERO as the game I would like to run (FATE is just too light on detail for me) but my group actually plays Pathfinder or D20 Conan.

[Ryhope Wood]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

1. The players. Seriously, the type of gamer who is drawn to a system like HERO is a different breed from your typical D&Der or Pathfinder player. My weekly gaming group typically plays some version of AD&D or Pathfinder, and the players are almost always focused on one thing: min-maxing everything. Unfortunately, many of the "canned" adventures pretty much expect or encourage this by making some of the challenges pretty much impossible if you don't min-max. As a result, things are focused more on game mechanics than story and character development. Juxtapose this with my previous gaming group (which is currently playing Fantasy HERO, unfortunately on a night that I cannot attend), and you'll find the players far more focused on developing skills and abilities that "make sense" for the character or current story rather than simply trying to get the most "bang for the buck" out of every point. HERO players also tend to understand the value and interest of disadvantages and weaknesses, whereas your typical D&Der will attempt to develop their character into an invulnerable mop-monster as quickly as possible...And if that's what they and their gamemasters enjoy, more power to them. It's just not a style of play I find entertaining for long.

 

2. As other people have mentioned, the flexibility to literally do ANYTHING is one of the great strengths of the HERO System. You can create a "character" and then let his abilities evolve organically as the story progresses, rather than being locked into a rigid schedule of progression based upon choices that you made before the actual game even started. Unfortunately, for newcomers to the system, this flexibility is also one of the great barriers to getting started (successfully) with the system. It can sometimes be extremely difficult to figure out whether a player's build is "unbalancing", particularly for someone new to HERO. Add to that the sheer number of options available, and the system can SEEM quite daunting.

 

3. Simplicity and consistency of the basic mechanic. The same basic mechanic is used for just about everything. This helps simplify the learning curve.

 

I've been playing RPGs on and off with the same group of friends for about 30 years as well. Many of the advantages of HERO can also be its disadvantages. My friends have played Champions over the years and love it for super heroes. The problem is often using the HERO System at the Heroic Tier for vanilla D&D fantasy or low magic sword and sorcery. The key attraction to someone playing D&D of a generic system like HERO is the ability to tweak everything within a consistent framework. This is especially attractive to a GM who wants to create exactly the kinds of settings he wants. For me the driver to change from D&D to another system will therefore more often come from the GM rather than the players. However the ability to tweak requires a large time investment for HERO, which is often a stretch for older players like myself who have numerous non-game commitments.

 

Fantasy Hero must compete with other generic systems for the disenchanted D&D GM. Notable competitors are GURPS, Savage Worlds, and FATE. How does HERO stack up against these for fantasy gaming?

 

GURPS and HERO are much more detailed and more precisely tweak able. FATE has a lot of hand waving / lack of granular detail, and Savage Worlds lies in-between. On the other hand, FATE and Savage Worlds are a lot easier on time-pressed GMs.

 

So if you (a) like granular detail and ( have time to commit to developing your fantasy campaign you are going down the GURPS or HERO route.

 

GURPS has some notable advantages: (a) extensive equipment lists (and where equipment is defined as is not as powers), ( characteristic costs maintain the differentiation that players expect from D&D, and © a more familiar basic spell system. GURPS is more difficult to learn than HERO but feels closer to the game material because everything isn't built from powers. HERO is easier to learn, and a lot of things have pre-built examples, but it just seems more intimidating to the new player. For example, GURPS characteristics still default from primary to secondary attributes. Breaking this link in 6E HERO just leaves a newbie GM wanting to know how much END they should buy to be reasonable. Min-maxing in HERO is also an acknowledged problem especially with primary characteristics. The character sheets look very intimidating! HERO is clearly more cinematic and is often easier to adjudicate because it has less specific (and often unnecessary detail). HERO feels more like the less gritty fantasy that we want to play.

 

This is why I yo-yo between GURPS and HERO as the game I would like to run (FATE is just too light on detail for me) but my group actually plays Pathfinder or D20 Conan.

[Old Man]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

It'd certainly be useful to compare FHC with other popular RPG systems if we mean to poach their players provide a superior alternative.

 

Pathfinder Pros: Ubiquitous. Available at Barnes & Noble and Amazon. Basically the same AD&D3 that many players have been playing for years, so presumably they are happy with it. Infinite source material.

Pathfinder Cons: Restrictive, level-based mechanics that cause really counterintuitive effects in-game. Total lack of any framework for customization or balance. Supports only high fantasy.

 

AD&D4 Pros: Ubiquitous. Available at Barnes & Noble and Amazon. Everyone's heard of it and a significant number of players have switched to it just on name recognition. Infinite source material. New mechanics might enable easier pickup by WoW gamers.

AD&D4 Cons: Even more restrictive and counterintuitive mechanics that Pathfinder. Version change and lack of backward compatibility have alienated a large segment of the overall D&D market. Supports only high fantasy.

 

GURPS Pros: Well supported universal system. Realistic mechanics.

GURPS Cons: Mechanics do not scale, nor do they support 'cinematic' games. Not as widely available as AD&D versions.

 

What others am I missing?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

What others am I missing?

 

The various World of Darkness games.

[Old Man]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Never played those.

[gojira]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

...but my group actually plays Pathfinder or D20 Conan.

 

This is the main reason I say a new Fantasy Hero product is a tough call right now (or ever, really). The fantasy RPG market is saturated, the competition has really good quality products, and I don't see anywhere for Hero Games to wedge in there and draw-in any gamers at all. Not on their budget, and not given Hero's relatively high complexity.

 

It's depressing, but I'd rather see the money spent on something that might actually draw folks, like a supplement for Champions Complete, than spend the money on a new Fantasy Hero product that's only going to appeal to existing customers at best (and therefore won't sell terribly well).

[Old Man]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I see what you're saying, but I'm also encouraged by earlier comments pointing out the disarray in the AD&D community right now. Even Ryhope is a d20 player who wants to move to FH. Maybe FH Complete could get the rest of his group to go along.

 

And I really have to call BS on the "Hero is complex" meme. Character and power creation can be a little complicated, but actually playing the game isn't any more complicated than d20 with all its charts and wack dice and total lack of any consistent mechanic for anything. And the thrust of FH Complete would be to lower the learning curve anyway. Seriously I think this is as good a time as any to make a run at it.

[gojira]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I see what you're saying' date=' but I'm also encouraged by earlier comments pointing out the disarray in the AD&D community right now. Even Ryhope is a d20 player who [i']wants[/i] to move to FH. Maybe FH Complete could get the rest of his group to go along.

 

Yes, and there's no reason not to at least look at a FH product. However, unless I personally went on a "listening tour" I wouldn't know what to advise. I can only offer platitudes and general ideas. The actual work of creating a new FH that really services the needs of a larger community of gamers is going to be a lot of work. I am mainly here advocating the Hero Games recognize that there will be a large effort, and plan accordingly. A quickie cheapie product has little chance, imo.

 

And I really have to call BS on the "Hero is complex" meme.

 

First, I shall defend my statement by pointing out that I said "relatively" complex. Relative to products like Savage Worlds, I think Hero's complexity is just a fact.

 

Relative to D20, Pathfinder or GURPS, Hero might be on par, but a lot of Hero's complexity is up-front, which is not where you want it when trying to introduce new players. And those other products tend to have much higher production values and availability, which creates the impression that added complexity is worth it. Hero's going to have a tough row to hoe no matter what they decide to do.